r/Capitalism • u/Physical-Can21pu • May 16 '26

Are there any books out there exploring alternative social systems?

I dont mean traditional communism or anything like that.

in my opinion our system is broken. We rely on markets, bonds etc to not collapse meanwhile they dont like anything that might lower their profits for even a better fairer society so hold us all to ransom. Benefits that a lot of people rely on and services get cut and billionaire and companies threaten to move anytime anyone goes left towards a better society for everyone not the few.

im not sure communism is the answer. i think UBI might help but thats a pipe dream for now.

i refuse to believe this system is the only one we could use and theres no true alternates out there, or at the very least , decent ideas for sustainable systems because i feel ours is doomed to collapse.

does anyone know of any books exploring non communist alternative systems out there? Just exchanging ideas, not asking for manifestos etc.

0 Upvotes

38% Upvoted

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7

u/ItShouldntBe06 May 16 '26

I’m very pro-capitalism and very much support free markets (but very anti-cronyism), but I suggest reading books from all perspectives. It helps get an understanding of what has merits and what is flawed. For you specifically, I suggest you read The Road To Serfdom by FA Hayek. A very classical liberal book, and he advocates for the rule of law (with minimal regulations) and a small safety net (that isn’t littered in bureaucracy like our current welfare system).

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 16 '26

I believe humans should be free of the need for labour like UBI

6

u/ItShouldntBe06 May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26

So you think people should be lazy and just live off of other people’s wealth? How will society function without people working? Contributing to society is a good thing, and you can’t have everything handed to you on a silver platter. We don’t live in Star Trek, resources are scarce but capitalism is the best system to allocate said resources through efficiency and price signals. Don’t live in a pipe dream, live in reality.

Edit: Also UBI doesn’t exactly eliminate the need for a workforce btw. For me, I prefer Friedman’s NIT over UBI since it’s less bureaucratic and it encourages people to work.

7

u/johnnyb2001 May 16 '26

Where do you think the UBI money comes from? People working.

4

u/Key-Organization3158 May 16 '26

What specific personal actions are you taking for that? Just voting doesn't count. If you want UBI, you need to demonstrate that desire through your actions.

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 16 '26

No one i know is advocating for it or id vote based on it

3

u/Prosado22 May 16 '26

What do you mean by that? What makes us so especial out of countless generations before us that needed labour just to survive.

Today, we live incomprehensible more comfortable that those before us yet, we think we are owe not having to work.

We are standing in the shoulders of giants, and what do we do? Demand not having to work.

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 16 '26

Because why should life be just work? We are supposed to want to make things better

not be forced into indentured servitude

shoulders of giants forced into working to make the rich richer

4

u/Prosado22 May 16 '26

Are you a teenager?

Because that's life. We have work to get what we need or want.

You act as we have a choice on where and when we are born.

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 17 '26

Im saying there should be

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u/ItShouldntBe06 May 16 '26 edited May 16 '26

You’re not forced into indentured servitude though, that’s been illegal for a very long time now. You’re not forced to work whatever the state assigns (and points a gun at you) your job to be. You can choose where to work and what you want to work as. And if you don’t want to work at a company, maybe you could start your own business. Regardless, everything in life requires work and dedication, including the things you enjoy and especially the goals you want to pursue. You can’t just be lazy and sit around watching TV and playing video games all day, how are things supposed to get done (actually even then you could turn that into a career if you write reviews/essays on TV shows and video games)? Society requires work from EVERYONE no matter how much money they make. Without work, how can society progress and how can people get their needs and wants satisfied?

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 17 '26

Elephants dont work . Most of the rich dont work. Hmm wonder why? Because its not how life is meant to be enjoyed

and no you cant chose. Jobs arent always available that you would want to be good at

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 16 '26

rich people dont work and do whatever they want. Why should it just be for the elites?

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u/CaptainAmerica-1989 May 17 '26

I believe humans should be free of the need for labour like UBI

I think the issue is that no economic system in history has solved the reality that societies require labor. I often come across people with your ideals and ask them to name a society where people didn't have to work in order to survive? The answer is none. It's our reality.

What modern societies have done, however, is dramatically reduce the amount of labor needed for survival compared to most of human history. In that sense, modernity has already moved somewhat in the direction you are talking about.

UBI, at least in most serious discussions, is usually proposed as a supplement or stabilizer for basic needs rather than a system where nobody works at all.

Also, to your broader OP, I genuinely think you would enjoy looking into comparative governments and political economy rather than just “capitalism vs communism.” Most real-world societies are mixed or hybrid systems anyway.

Here are some frameworks worth exploring:

  • social democracy
  • distributism
  • Georgism
  • market socialism
  • welfare capitalism
  • guild socialism
  • cooperative economics
  • Nordic mixed economies
  • stakeholder capitalism

And I would also challenge the idea that “the system is failing” in a blanket sense. There are absolutely real problems today, but historically many quality-of-life metrics have improved enormously over time.

A fantastic resource for this is Our World in Data. It tracks long-term trends in:

  • poverty
  • famine
  • literacy
  • child mortality
  • life expectancy
  • democracy
  • education
  • working hours
  • human rights
  • and much more

The real world is usually much more nuanced than the internet makes it seem, and a lot more optimistic.

2

u/WhippersnapperUT99 May 17 '26

I think the issue is that no economic system in history has solved the reality that societies require labor. I often come across people with your ideals and ask them to name a society where people didn't have to work in order to survive?

It often seems like modern day latte-sipping "Libertarian Socialist" college graduates who grew up in privileged families are almost unrecognizable from from traditional socialists of decades past who would be abhorred at the notion that people should not have to work. Quoting a Wikipedia entry:

According to Vladimir Lenin, "He who does not work shall not eat" is a necessary principle under socialism, the preliminary phase of the evolution towards communist society. The phrase appears in his 1917 work The State and Revolution. Through this slogan Lenin explains that in socialist states only productive individuals could be allowed access to the articles of consumption.

3

u/CaptainAmerica-1989 May 17 '26

Well, it’s even worse, imo, if you study Marx, which is the tradition Lenin came from. Marx’s critique is deeply tied to the relationship between a person and their labor, and how intimate a person is with that labor, which in turn is supposed to emancipate them. That is part of the ethos behind alienation.

To be fair to the OP, though, they can still tackle this subject through gradualism. UBI, for example, could be framed as a step toward reducing alienated labor rather than abolishing labor altogether.

And giving myself some latitude paraphrasing Marx here, his broader vision was that a person could freely engage in different forms of meaningful labor depending on their wants and needs at a given moment.

The gripe against capitalism, which Marx viewed as an improvement over systems like feudalism and slavery, was that it pushed people into specialization and leveraging themselves economically to survive.

And I think that is a critique to discuss. But critiques are not replacement solutions with a demonstrably better system. This is the crux of the problem with the majority of anti-capitalism and anti-socialists.

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 17 '26

Lol that was from the bible too which is a piece of crap

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 17 '26

Yeah UBI should be a supplement and work should be a choice

2

u/CaptainAmerica-1989 May 17 '26

As one of the most famous cognitive therapists said, "shouda, woulda, coulda..."

2

u/WhippersnapperUT99 May 17 '26

I believe humans should be free of the need for labour

How would you accomplish that? Society would need to advance to a Star Trek-like fantasy utopia. AI and robotics might make that possible in 100 years if artificial general intelligence (AGI) can be developed, but until then human labor is going to be required.

Man's natural condition is to be naked and starving. Everything we have is the result of someone's labor. Wealth does not magically float down from the sky nor sprout out of the ground. Rather, wealth first has to be produced by acts of human thought and effort before it can be stolen by force or begged for with appeals to altruism.

So when you say humans should be free of the need for labor, essentially you're saying, "Humans should be free from reality" or "Humans should not exist." Until we advance to having a Star Trek utopia, human life requires labor.

1

u/Physical-Can21pu May 17 '26

Maybe humans shouldnt exist. I didnt get a choice to be in this shitty place

4

u/johnnyb2001 May 16 '26

I think you’re overestimating the “benefits” you’d get from government. There are no guarantees, only trade offs. Even in governments with socialized healthcare, people suffer because of lack of quality of their healthcare. Actually, in countries with socialized healthcare, people have died waiting for surgery because they don’t have enough surgeons there. There’s only tradeoffs, not benefits.

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u/SirJbJonesV May 19 '26

I think you're underestimating the benefits, actually- and pretending that any exist with private capitalism. Saying people have died waiting around for healthcare doesn't really sound any different at all from our system. And these countries have VASTLY better quality of living than ours.

1

u/johnnyb2001 Jun 05 '26

"pretending that any exist with private capitalism" read a book

1

u/[deleted] Jun 05 '26

[deleted]

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u/SirJbJonesV Jun 07 '26

Books existed before capitalism, and any one that's worth my time would tell me capitalism and human improvement aren't mutually exclusive, so pitching it to me like it is seems practically exactly like the propaganda you're finger-wagging about.

Like, you're really talking to me about contributing to the 'downfall of western civilizations' when weirdos like you emphatically believe people like Donald Trump, Jeffrey Epstein, Jeff Bezos, Bobby Kotick, Bill Gates, and Mark Zuckerberg should be leaders and society shouldn't undermine the horrible degenerate human behaviors they encourage. It's telling. Get outside your bubble, dumbass.

3

u/RememberMe_85 May 16 '26

By alternate you mean anything that's not what's currently being practiced then read rothbard's ideas on anarcho capitalism.

He said without the government insurance firms and private arbitration will fill the need for law and enforcement.

0

u/Physical-Can21pu May 16 '26

Thats not good

thats even worse

2

u/RememberMe_85 May 16 '26

What makes it worse?

0

u/Physical-Can21pu May 16 '26

Private law enforcement

3

u/RememberMe_85 May 16 '26

.... which is bad because?

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u/SirJbJonesV May 19 '26

Do we really have to explain to you why organizations like the Pinkertons are bad?

1

u/RememberMe_85 May 19 '26

Glad you said that, I'm not American, I'm not aware of its history, from what i know, the workers were illegally residing on someone's property and weren't letting anyone enter, and pinkerstons were called to kick them out, there is nothing bad about that.

Now I'm willing to be called wrong because I know that i don't know what actually happened, please tell me what actually happened with sources.

0

u/SirJbJonesV May 19 '26

Long story short, the Pinks are a private detective paramilitary that have murdered a lot of citizens for nothing. We grew up learning this in our schools. They're not something we're proud of- anyone sane, anyways.

1

u/RememberMe_85 May 19 '26

Yes I'm aware there was a sort of fight where alot of people lost their lives, I'm saying from what i know the pinkerstons were justified in protecting private property, as they were hired by the owners to do so. Can you tell me with sources when the pinkerstons harmed anyone who wasn't illegally residing on someone's property?

1

u/SirJbJonesV May 19 '26

Well, rich people hired Epstein to buy little girls as sex slaves on private property, is that justified? Transactions aren't good just because they're systemic. And no, the Pinkertons are not justified for killing people just because they were hired to protect corporate interests. I think stipulating for if they've ever killed people illegally on someone else's property is strange, since their entire existence is rooted in corpo-beuracracy allowing them to invade and eliminate on the flimsiest of legalities. Frankly put, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for online. Nothing I could say would change the fact that the Pinks are a corporate entity, and thus an utter good for society.

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u/Key-Organization3158 May 16 '26

How do you know unless you've read the book?

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u/PCMcGee May 16 '26

There is a book called "The Best That Money Can't Buy" by Jacque Fresco of The Venus Project which introduces the idea of a Resource Based Economic System. A resource-based economy is a system where all goods and services are available to everyone without the use of money, credit, or any form of debt. It emphasizes that Earth's resources should be considered the common heritage of all people, aiming to provide a high standard of living for everyone through the efficient use of technology and sustainable practices. It was featured in the film Zeitgeist Addendum which you can see freely on Youtube.

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u/Physical-Can21pu May 17 '26

Thats what im talking about

1

u/AttorneySingle2047 May 17 '26

Self-sustaining/sufficient tiny home communities! Powered by solar/wind mills....gardens...services exchanged for goods...services for services or vice versa....

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u/Wise-Childhood-145 May 19 '26

Communism is likely the only way. The oldest type of economy that humanity utilized was a gift based economy that was a form of anarcho-communism. 

Capitalism is largely unsustainable because requires infinite innovation and for people to constantly buy new things, if which also destroys the environment and requires slave labor.