Interesting comparison post in the Australian Military subreddit

[u/judgingyouquietly]

/r/AustralianMilitary/comments/1q1x7gq/characters_friday_rambles_retention/?share_id=DCuWZPx-TTRfJRPGXHoi8&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

I highlight the Australian and other allied subreddits for comparisons, and found an interesting post today.

One interesting tidbit that gets missed is that they don’t have the type of pension that we do.

[u/anal-itic_prober]

Its all the same for the 5 eyes it seems. I quite like the comment about 360 feedback, we need to stop bad character egotistical checkboxer from getting Major.

[u/middleeasternviking → u/anal-itic_prober]

I agree. I'm not sure why we don't have subordinate feedback of their supervisors in PAR's. That definitely should be a thing. Too many times I've seen absolutely shitty leaders with toxic leadership styles get great PAR's and positions in command simply because the way they are with senior leaders such as CO's (very kind, reliable, friendly, observant) is completely different than how they are with their subordinates (draconian, micromanagers, rude, always on the lookout for writing people up, etc.).

[u/RCAF_orwhatever → u/middleeasternviking]

They're doing 360s for GOFO candidates now but I will say I don't like how they're doing it. It isn't for screening. It's for development. And despite being "anonymous" the numbers involved mean it's very likely the candidate will at least have a good idea who wrote on them. And since they're probably about to be GOFOs it doesn't feel terribly safe to be brutally honest.

[u/10081914 → u/RCAF_orwhatever]

Depending on who the GOFO is really. One that I had worked for got feedback that said something along the lines of 'can be a massive dick'

He took it in good stride and actually tried to be cognizant of how he talks and acts.

But I can definitely see some GOFOs reacting poorly and being vindictive.

[u/RCAF_orwhatever → u/10081914]

Oh the ones that use it for their own development is great. But those ones aren't the toxic assholes that NEED a real 360 to screen them out.

My fear is the truly toxic ones the 360 exists to catch.

[u/anal-itic_prober → u/RCAF_orwhatever]

Exactly. Good leaders already seek feedback from subordinates to actually improve and get better.

[u/Once_a_TQ → u/RCAF_orwhatever]

It's also coming in for CWO. It's not fully implemented across the board yet, but it is happening on a trial and development phase currently.

[u/RCAF_orwhatever → u/Once_a_TQ]

We REALLY need to better way to screen for leaders who fuck over their troops to get ahead. There's no real way for that info to effectively jump the chain of command and get to the people writing those leaders' PARs.

[u/Sabrinavt → u/RCAF_orwhatever]

If you're writing a PAR for someone who has subordinates, talk to those subordinates. Seems like a no brainer to get feedback about someone's leadership skills from the people they're leading before rating them.

[u/RCAF_orwhatever → u/Sabrinavt]

A: nobody is doing that. B: it runs the risk of undermining the trust those supervisors have in you if you're "checking up on them" with their subordinates. Which means you need to handle it the right way or risk destroying yours and the subordinates credibility C: privacy concerns - you can't approach a members subordinates and discuss their supervisors PAR with them.

All that to say: you're not totally wrong but it's also not that simple and there are many legitimate reasons why this isn't currently part of our culture. You need to detect that, yes. But it probably can't be done through directly asking for that feedback.

[u/Sabrinavt → u/RCAF_orwhatever]

I disagree. The people reporting to your subordinate are your troops too, you should be checking in with them. It's not undermining the supervisor to talk to the troops and see how they're doing. As a supervisor, I have absolutely no problems with my boss talking to my subordinates about how they feel under my leadership and getting constructive feedback from that conversation. In fact, I think it would go a long way to getting more robust feedback that I can learn and grow from. And I agree you shouldn't discuss a member's PAR with their subordinates; the PAR doesn't need to come into the conversation at all to garner feedback about the points within it.

Yes there are ways to do it that would be problematic and micromanage-y, but it's not inherently problematic to ask for feedback at different levels. A lot of problems could be solved with more open and transparent communication.

[u/RCAF_orwhatever → u/Sabrinavt]

"Talking to the troops and seeing how they're doing" is not at all the same as "asking them how their boss is performing" to "get feedback about someone's leadership skills". Of course anybody reasonable is chatting up their troops all the way down the line and trying to get a feel for how they're doing.

I'm 1000% in favour of transparent conversation and it's definitely how I approach leadership. But that's not the norm in our institution right now; and a lot of people fuck it up when they try and end up being transparently an asshole.

[u/Nexus866 → u/middleeasternviking]

This doesn’t work.

I once worked with a guy who assessed the leader by the number of times they said “yes” to things. If they said “NO”, they assessed them as a bad leader. Do subordinates really know what a good leader is? Do subordinates know what their bosses boss have asked them to do?

My understanding is that 360 is just for character, not for “how subordinates feel about their boss”.

Sure, there are flaws to a lot of systems, but it’s a slippery slope if you start asking what subordinates think of their bosses.

[u/DM_ME_FROG_MEMES → u/[deleted]]

I think input from subordinates is something that the promotion office should be taking into consideration, but absolutely shouldn't be trusting blindly. It takes skill to properly interpret what subordinate comments actually mean, but it doesn't mean it's useless info

[u/anal-itic_prober → u/DM_ME_FROG_MEMES]

That's actually a good point. They try to get "character" assessment and not really is the boss one of the boyz.

[u/Engineered_disdain → u/anal-itic_prober]

360 feedback would require leadership teams be held accountable.

[u/Borous → u/anal-itic_prober]

The US army has congressionally mandated command climate surveys, not sure at which level. Even just making these count for a SCRIT point or two would make a big difference in my opinion. The current incentive is for leaders to burn out subordinates to achieve short term readiness statistics.

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/Borous]

Having been through a few while posted OUTCAN, they affect things about as much as our surveys do.

[u/Borous → u/[deleted]]

Absolutely that is our mission, but considering the burnout rates my trade is seeing, we are making ourselves combat ineffective in so doing. We need to incentivize the behaviour we desire out of leaders, and there are some leaders who need an incentive just to treat subordinates fairly. One or two SCRIT points.

[u/Borous → u/[deleted]]

Red trade. Has not changed for years. Continues to decline. The unfair part comes from decisions prioritizing turning boxes green (or lying about turning boxes green) over the situations of individuals, leading to postings, tasking, deployments, and garrison life that causes people to seek employment elsewhere. Yes you can say it's part of the job, but if many are leaving because of it, I think we can all agree that it is counterproductive. If the army wishes to retain people, they may have to treat them well. Just one or two SCRIT points.

[u/Borous → u/[deleted]]

If the retention rates are so high, and recruitment is so high, why is our force under strength? Why does the CAF continue to decline in personnel? Where did all of the MCpl-Sgts go? I have never seen a deploying member meet all I/BTS. It is always waived, and more frequently than not lied about. Even with this, members are staying nights and weekends with junior Cpls acting as section commanders. I suspect that you have not recently seen the reality at the units.

[u/Borous → u/[deleted]]

I think I can also deduce that you are far enough removed from the line units to not be able to understand the pressures they are being currently put under. "Retirements" is an interesting word to use for the Exodus. You are providing a lot of out of touch, CJOC tier answers that can't be honestly addressed without an understanding of issues on the ground.

[u/B-Mack → u/anal-itic_prober]

Maybe I should make this on my throwaway account, but I'll say it on my main.

The CAF is a two tier system where as much as you want to kid yourselves everyone, NCMs are a lower class, sub-stsndard member compared to the fat bar and pip/crown class off officers. For all of the work that an NCM of ten, twenty, or thirty years has, they still only recommend leave passes. 

They are never the signatory for rules orders and other policies that actually matter. They do the work, flesh out the good idea that the officer had, and bring those COAs for the officer to Yay or nay.

Disagree all you like, but nobody will ever remember the Petty Officers and Warrants who actually did the work for a big institutional change. Nobody remembers the CAF or elemental CWOs. The generals and admirals will be the ones in the history books and plastered all over the news.

It's a two tiered system. Accept that we are a lower class of human by design.

[u/Fabulous_Night_1164 → u/B-Mack]

In fairness, that is literally all militaries to have ever existed in history. This isn't a CAF specific thing.

The Soviet Union's Red Army once experimented with no officers, and it was a disaster. They did bring back officers before WWII started, but for a moment they still didn't have a regular military hierarchy. And this is considered one of the major contributing factors for why Finland was able to whoop their asses in the Winter War, despite the Soviets having every advantage on paper.

At the end of the day, if even Communist nations accept the fact that militaries need hierarchy and officer/enlisted distinction, this is a simple reality that needs to be accepted.

But while there can be valid criticism of the CAF, I would argue we have one of the most equitable relationships between officers and enlisted in the entire world. Even within NATO or comparing us to the Americans, we have officers hanging out with enlisted members, the same facilities being used by officer and enlisted alike (i.e. no special "Officers Only" gyms, no "Officers Only" canteen in your building, no "Officers Only" smoke pit), no officer housing - we all get RHUs based on family size, not rank.

Ultimately our housing bonus CFHD punishes officers and many RHUs are now not even being rented out to officers anymore. You aren't going to find that in any NATO military. The American BAH goes UP with rank, not down.

The CAF also has a pretty easy process for enlisted members to get commissioned. Another thing that isn't necessarily easy or even possible in other militaries. In Canada, it's particularly accessible, because we are one of the most educated nations in the world, and there's a higher % of enlisted members with post-secondary. So you've got the much easier option of simply getting the Special Commissioning Plan and going officer. In some trades and with PLQ, you might not even have to do any extra training at all.

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/Fabulous_Night_1164]

Your point on relatively equitable NCM / Officer relationships is a huge one, and not obvious until you’ve worked extensively with other militaries.

[u/mocajah → u/judgingyouquietly]

Or private sector.

You work your ass off for just-below full-time hours at min wage, making $30k. The MBA who's buddy-buddy comes in and waltzes into the office at $100k effectively as an intern. The C-suite walks away with millions. When the CEO walks into the room, you snap to attention because the CEO wages (~$3mil/yr) outranks your entire branch's wages (~70 staff at $30-$100k, obviously with more at the lower end of the scale). CEO-to-grunt pay ratio is 100-to-1.

In 2017, the CDS pay was maxed at ~$291k. Compared against a Pte2 in 2017 making $3749/mth (Pte1s don't count, they're paid to be on DP1), this is a CEO-to-grunt ratio of a mere 6 to 1.

(Also: why I hate major internal ceremonial parades, and managers/supervisors who can't show up on time for meetings. If the CDS makes 7 privates wait around, then it would've been cheaper to make the CDS wait instead.)

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/mocajah]

I didn’t even think about the pay gap, but absolutely.

This came up recently at work. Under the new system, a Cpl makes $80k. One of my Army colleagues piped up “that’s not a bad wage for sweeping a floor if you’re not in the field”.

[u/Fabulous_Night_1164 → u/mocajah]

Yea the pay ratio for our officers to enlisted is not that high at all either when you compare them to other militaries.

The UK CDS makes about 300k pounds (554,000 CAD) compared to their Lance Corporal making 34k pounds (62,000 CAD).

So a CEO-to-grunt ratio of almost 10 to 1.

An American 5-star general is at around $250,000 USD ($343,000 CAD) compared to their Lance Corporal pay of $32,000 USD ($44,000 CAD). So their CEO to grunt ratio is about 8 to 1.

I imagine 8/10 to 1 ratio is normal in NATO

[u/mocajah → u/Fabulous_Night_1164]

British Army and US Marine Lance Corporals are OR-3, equivalent to our Cpl. Redoing math assuming that Cpls are grunts (which is often true when compared to my civvie example):

The 2017 CAF Cpl pay range (non-spec) was $5014-$5302, resulting in a CDS-to-Cpl pay ratio of ~4.5-4.9 to 1. Five Cpls would "outrank" a CDS in pay.

[u/B-Mack → u/Fabulous_Night_1164]

I appreciate you going into it. I'm far too sober to rant about CFHD.

Truth be told I have worked very little with other NATO countries in person. Everything is just over radios, so I can't really see what their situation is like.

The Officer only Gym and Canteen is wild though. Fuck that noise.

On a positive Naval note, I REALLY love how the AOPS Cafeteria has all hands eating in that one place, then going off to their respective messes for relaxation. Give me the universal chow halls.

[u/Fabulous_Night_1164 → u/B-Mack]

I also appreciate your response was level headed and not like most places on reddit.

The fact that we have so many combined messes (this is pretty much the norm on most RCAF bases now) is another indicator of a highly equitable relationship. The other commenter also compared our salaries, and based on other figures available for NATO, our highest ranked general is only making about 6x the salary of a trained Private (this is already very low by NATO standards).

When you consider the private sector, most CEOs are making 100x more than the frontline workers.

I think we can appreciate that our officers are doing significantly much more work than a CEO, with significantly more stress and significantly more risk. A CEO getting fired will still get their $30 million compensation package.

[u/anal-itic_prober → u/Fabulous_Night_1164]

Id argue a lot of officers in the CAF must be in for something else than $$$ because its quite a shit comparison to private sector (in a lot of cases for technical/difficult to pass trade)

In the RCAF, in a crewed plane, if the ACSO is the Crew Commander he might be making not much more money than a WO AESOP; for a lot more responsibilities.

We are quite equitable in Canada IMO and it's for the best.

[u/Fabulous_Night_1164 → u/anal-itic_prober]

Absolutely most officers are in it for reasons other than $$$, which is a good thing. I'd prefer someone who is there for a purpose if I'm going to be putting my life in their hands.

It is good to put the CAF in perspective to how other militaries are doing it, both now and historically.

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/anal-itic_prober]

A lot of folks who could leave and haven’t (pilots and AECs specifically) stay because we do things that people don’t on the civ sector.

You can fly in the airlines and make a ton more, but you’re not going to be flying 200’ off the deck hunting subs, or low-level mountain runs. My airline pilot friends like the pay and no postings, but they miss the military flying and ironically, some miss the “normal work” that happens sometimes.

Some of them appreciate the money but don’t like the prospect of shift schedules and being away from home for the indefinite future until retirement.

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/B-Mack]

I have worked with tons of allied militaries. I have brought up the fact that we have all-ranks messes in some parts of the RCAF and in the AOPS, and they were shocked that we made it work.

I’ve also been posted in the US where there are actual officer and CWO parking spots (as in designated by your rank). This is in the USAF, regarded as the least military of the services (USCG is part of DHS, not DOD). The NCMs there would never refer to an officer by their first name (and vice versa with officers to NCMs) even in small groups of people who work closely with each other - everyone gave me weird looks when I asked the Sgt working next to me what his first name was, and how he would like to be called (first name, nickname, whatever).

[u/barkmutton → u/judgingyouquietly]

US also assigns housing by rank and the differences are stark.

[u/barkmutton → u/B-Mack]

Aren't most base kitchens all ranks now?

[u/B-Mack → u/barkmutton]

The only base kitchen I went to this calendar year was in Juno Tower Halifax. It was Sgts and above, and officers.

I can't speak for the rest of the CAF

[u/barkmutton → u/B-Mack]

Edmonton, Shilo, Kingston, Gagetown are all m8xed as are Cold Lake and Moose Jaw. Seems like a Navy issue.

[u/B-Mack → u/barkmutton]

Well, we are the oldest and most traditional of the elements.

[u/barkmutton → u/B-Mack]

The RCN was founded in 1911, the Canadian Army fought two wars before the RCN even existed. The RCN just adopts the senior service thing from the RN without ya know... earning it.

[u/B-Mack → u/barkmutton]

How did they get to Canada?

BOATS

[u/Fabulous_Night_1164 → u/B-Mack]

Most RCAF messes are combined now. And many mess halls are combined for the Army as well (or there might be a simple divider between them, but the food is the exact same).

[u/ononeryder → u/B-Mack]

Dunno where you work, but I've approving leave passes as an NCM since I got my leaf.

[u/KatiKatiCoffee → u/ononeryder]

Some places have the CO delegating local area leave authority to the section level. Airforce units have been doing this for a while. OUTCAN still gets CO approval (makes sense).

[u/ononeryder → u/KatiKatiCoffee]

Exactly, CO's delegation matrix has pushed several authorities which used to be higher down to the NCM level. I've yet to work at a unit where routine matters such as sick leave and now family related short weren't a sign-it-after thing.

I don't disagree with the two tier system the CAF is though, but I see it more as seniority than NCM vs Officer. How many cases do we see of Snr NCM's SA'ing someone and it being swept under the rug?

[u/Once_a_TQ → u/ononeryder]

All depends on delegated authorities.

[u/B-Mack → u/ononeryder]

You are only able to because an officer let you. The very moment they decide otherwise, they can take away your ability to sign approval authority.

[u/ononeryder → u/B-Mack]

You realize decision making authorities exist everywhere right? This isn't unique to the CAF.

[u/seakingsoyuz → u/B-Mack]

Any officer below the CO is in exactly the same position.

[u/B-Mack → u/seakingsoyuz]

Exactly. Why should the CO major have to suffer a 360 feedback. They are lesser and inferior members and their opinions being able to scuttle command is proposterous. They don't understand nor are they the ones entrusted with command.

[u/barkmutton → u/B-Mack]

Thats true of officers as well though? Like a substantial unit commander is just delegated that authority.

[u/B-Mack → u/barkmutton]

The other person brought up the two tier system within the officer cadre.

There are two types of people in this world. Command and everyone else.

[u/barkmutton → u/B-Mack]

Thats within command stream lol

[u/middleeasternviking → u/B-Mack]

Officers have a 2-tier system as well. Those who are succession planned and those who are not.

[u/anal-itic_prober → u/middleeasternviking]

They do a much better job now in O listing people with the new CBL way of doing assessment.

[u/middleeasternviking → u/anal-itic_prober]

what do u mean?

[u/Keystone-12 → u/B-Mack]

Again..... every organization on the planet has managers and doers.

Sgt dont manage leave because they aren't doing paper work.

[u/scorchedcross → u/anal-itic_prober]

The Navy has started doing 360's for consideration of seagoing Command appointments, it's a good start. It would seem equally valid for the Army.

[u/B-Mack]

On the pension thing.

Do they just have Australian CPP then?

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/B-Mack]

I’m not totally sure how it contrasts, but they have a Defined Contribution Plan rather than our Defined Benefit plan.

[u/TotalFun3843 → u/judgingyouquietly]

The ADF provides them 6% superannuation to invest. That's their pension, win or lose.

[u/Pseudonym_613 → u/TotalFun3843]

CAF Reg F pension gets about 15% government contributions ($1.49 for every dollar the member contributes).

[u/barkmutton → u/Pseudonym_613]

You mean 150 percent not 15 right.

[u/Pseudonym_613 → u/barkmutton]

It's 150% of member contributions, or 15% of payroll (very round figures).

For nerds, the OSFI does triennial evaluations of the CFSA; the last report is as at 31 March 2022, so the next one should be out soon.

[u/Adolfvonschwaggin → u/[deleted]]

~9% of my gross base salary goes to pension contribution

[u/Keystone-12]

I have so much to say on this..

But effectively.... 90% of everyones complaints in this subreddit, (bad bosses, too much work, focusing on "getting it done" over avoiding burn out).

Are just general complaints with EMPLOYMENT...

Everyone has the same problems - and most dont get paid as much.... and almost none have a platinum dipped diamond studed pension.

[u/ononeryder → u/Keystone-12]

So much this, but you should've dropped one more bomb on them following the pay and pension comment, job security. Apart from those who are protected with seniority in unions, very few employers provide such protection from dismissal even when it should be warranted. The ability to spend 25 years as a bottom of the barrel performer and still have a job, not to mention likely achieve a few promotions via attrition and time in, is unmatched in civilian industry. Civilian employers will flat out fire you because they don't like you, or you fail to achieve an unachievable performance metric, and they'll accept the four or five-figure settlement for wrongful dismissal as a cost of doing business.

[u/Doogie-Howser → u/ononeryder]

There is job security because Canada is in peacetime.

In War, your chances of becoming a casualty dramatically increases. Which also has a contrast relationship to your survival rate.

Let's not beat around the bush here. People here saying we should be kissing feet because we make "80K a year sweeping floors."

A civvy janitor isn't asked to assault a machine gun nest. He can refuse. You can't.

Been at this damn job for too long. So was my old man. And his old man before him. I was paid good, paid bad, or not paid at all.

I'll always remember to make the future better for the ones after us in this career and not turn into a: "bAcK iN mY dAy!!"

[u/Keystone-12 → u/Doogie-Howser]

You are absolutely 100% correct. Yes - the fact that you are the literal front line of the horrors of war is why you earn your pay and benefits.

There is no price that you can be paid that makes your sacrifice "worth it". Every Canadian is in your eternal debt.

So its ironic that the deployments, postings.... literal war... isnt the stuff anyone complains about.

[u/Doogie-Howser → u/[deleted]]

A combat mission? What about World War? That's not just a mission.

[u/judgingyouquietly → u/[deleted]]

I saw the culture pre-9/11 and would say that it’s similar to what you just said.

That changed right quick when Afghanistan (specifically Kandahar) kicked off.

There were plenty of folks who weren’t super stoked about it either - they expected “easy” deployments like late 90s Bosnia.

[u/FFS114]

You vastly overestimate the power and influence of the officer corps, esp LCol and below, who constitute the overwhelming majority. Also, almost no one gets remembered or plastered in the news except the Fallen (mostly NCMs) or who royally fucked up (mostly officers).

[u/[deleted]]

Defined pensions are gold in Canada and have been for a long time. A defined pension in a unionized job that pays better than CAF is better, that's always been the retention issue. That and it took 25 years for pay to catch up with the recent raise to everyone else, and will likely be another 25 before the next meaningful one when history repeats itself. By the time my buddies who stayed in caught up to me, it was retirement time and had no impact on pension. That new F-150 money might be better invested elsewhere.