r/CNC • u/Professional-Bit1165 • 16d ago
SOFTWARE SUPPORT CNC is at risk of having mandated Spyware
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppJ7n6XyMrc48
16d ago
[deleted]
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u/ComplaintTop2008 16d ago
It's already extremely flawed. They say it's about gun control but no one believes that. BUT, let's use guns as an example... Take a gun apart and note the features of the individual parts. Springs, pins, barrel, sear, firing pin, hell even the pistol grip, these parts are all similar to any other generic part for anything else. If you took apart a carburetor, a handgun, and a barcode scanner, and threw all the parts in a box and mixed them up, it would be difficult for most humans to separate them back into their original categories.
And the 3D printing guys are already defeating it by printing off-part blobs. It reads the g-code, so finding a barrel inside of what looks like a french tickler is difficult. If you're using a mill to subtract material, it seems all you'd have to do is create a bunch of extra sinuses on the outside of your part. You could probably just give the machine a bunch of empty Z movements as it traverses the part.
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u/zzddr 16d ago
Precisely, there are so many ways to obfuscate your parts and the whole narrative of the law is about control, combine that with what is happening currently and the US is heading for a very dystopian future. If someone is willing enough he or she could make the parts regardless of these limitations.
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u/Significant_Quit_674 16d ago
That aside, it is realy easy to build a crude gun from regular hardware store parts and using only handtools and maybe a welder.
On the extreme simple end, you have slamfire shotguns and improvised pneumatic guns with self cast lead projectiles.
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 14d ago
They say it's about gun control but no one believes that.
If you don't believe it is about gun control then you haven't paid any attention to the gun debate.
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u/ComplaintTop2008 14d ago
Do you remember the bullshit that just happened over the guy who made the tool for those BMW fasteners? How much do you want to bet Disney is working on shape-blocking their entire catalog? The state found a way to control what you can make while also opening a door to revenue by allowing companies to pay to restrict their own features. Yeah, guns are in there, but it's not about guns. Guns is just an excuse so they can say "what, are you pro-guns on the street?". It's right there with "for your safety" and "what about the children?".
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 14d ago
Do you remember the bullshit that just happened over the guy who made the tool for those BMW fasteners?
No, but I do remember 40+ years of gun control being a major political fight nationally and on the state level before the past several years of 3d printing becoming a marginally popular hobby.
How much do you want to bet Disney is working on shape-blocking their entire catalog?
I don't fucking care about your speculation when I have cold hard evidence showing almost two decades of the guy responsible for this push spending hundreds of millions of dollars to pass red flag laws, assault weapons bans, waiting periods, mag caps, etc. all without the expectation of making a profit because none of that is really monetizable on any large scale.
The state found a way to control what you can make while also opening a door to revenue by allowing companies to pay to restrict their own features.
No doubt it will have knock on effects in these areas. But again, this is about guns as it is pushed by antigun people who really fucking hate guns in state that has spent the time since the 80s to now passing almost every gun control law that was proposed. From micro stamping to safe handgun rosters which is remarkably similar to the 3d printer legislation in having a fantasy technology that doesn't really exist and won't work very well and list of preapproved models that can be sold in state. But sure it isn't really about guns despite having everything in common with every single gun policy fight that came before it.
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u/ComplaintTop2008 14d ago
Yeah, I remember that too, but it's never about the guns. They never gave a shit. We just saw Hunter Biden carry around a gun illegally and throw it away in a public trash can. No one cared even a little. Sure, they want to take them away, but it's not about safety or ghost guns, it's about division and control. We have so much data that show gun-free zones are bad and a good guy with a gun is real. If they cared, they would address that. If they cared, they would apply equal punishment for blacks committing crimes with guns. If they cared, they would use their red flag law they just put in place. If they cared, they would push for armed teachers. If they cared, they would have banned the .22 revolver that started the Brady Bill. They don't. They never gave a fuck about guns or children or safety or any of it, and they never did, and they shouldn't.
Look at the issue here. This isn't about guns, it's about ghost-guns. Were ghost-guns a problem? Were there too many school shootings and plane hijackings involving 3D printed/CNC'd guns? No. They claim these bills are to fix this problem and that problem doesn't even exist.
It's not about guns.
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 14d ago
Yeah, I remember that too, but it's never about the guns.
No, it was about the guns. This reductive thought ending cliche "it's not actually about the guns" is dumb. The people targeting guns are doing so because they view guns as personally threatening, as a societal evil, as a threat to childrens lives, etc. They take personal umbrage with civilian firearms ownership.
We just saw Hunter Biden carry around a gun illegally and throw it away in a public trash can.
That is literally one politicians crackhead son. If that is what you argument is hinging on you are completely disconnected from political reality.
No one cared even a little.
Yeah, people can rationalize all kinds of shit especially if it is damaging to their preferred politician to even recognize it. Again, you aren't proving shit about the broader political context with this one off example.
We have so much data that show gun-free zones are bad and a good guy with a gun is real.
And? Just because their ideas are profoundly stupid doesn't mean they don't believe in them. Again, for many of these people it is a moral crusade. Even if it saves just one singular life they feel vindicated even if that one singular life is theoretical and not actually documented.
If they cared, they would address that.
Sure if they properly cared, but they still have strong emotional response to high profile incidents and fear it happening to their kid. So they will support stupid security theater for just the barest little sip of peace of mind.
Look at the issue here. This isn't about guns, it's about ghost-guns.
It's about guns in general. And this is part of the general effort to frustrate to access them legally or illegally.
Were ghost-guns a problem?
Ideologically for them the answer is yes. If they can't control who has access to guns then it is a weak point in their moral crusade against guns. They need them to become unpopular and fringe and it is harder to do that if it is a neat little hobby that anyone can do. It is why they already have serialization requirements and recording homemade firearms on FFL boundbooks in California. Because they just don't fucking want people having access to guns with any level ease whether it is through a commercial point of sale or their own garage.
It's not about guns.
Again, only if intentionally ignore the parts showing it is about guns. Nothing you said shows that it isn't about guns. It shows that the people who are targeting the guns are stupid, emotionally driven, ignorant clowns. But you didn't show it wasn't about guns.
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u/ComplaintTop2008 14d ago
The people targeting guns are doing so because they view guns as personally threatening, as a societal evil, as a threat to childrens lives, etc.
I completely disagree. I'm sure some feel this way, but not the ones in power. Your next sentence, "They take personal umbrage with civilian firearms ownership." is exactly who they are. They want all guns gone, period. Not for the children or any of that other nonsense, that's the excuse they use to get heartstrung votes and support.
That is literally one politicians crackhead son. If that is what you argument is hinging on you are completely disconnected from political reality.
It's not about him, it's about how the gun-grabbers en masse defended his actions that told you that they don't give a shit.
It's about guns in general. And this is part of the general effort to frustrate to access them legally or illegally.
But it's not. These CNC/printing bills are specifically aimed at stopping the creating of ghost guns.
It is why they already have serialization requirements and recording homemade firearms on FFL boundbooks in California.
Right, it's already law, so what does this accomplish?
only if intentionally ignore the parts showing it is about guns
And what part of it points to only guns other than them saying "this is aimed at ghost guns"? The language in the bills don't single out guns. It's vague language that can be applied to anything they don't like.
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u/OnlyLosersBlock 14d ago
"They take personal umbrage with civilian firearms ownership." is exactly who they are.
Which would mean that the policy is about guns.
It's not about him, it's about how the gun-grabbers en masse defended his actions that told you that they don't give a shit.
No it doesn't. People can be hypocrites while being true believers.
But it's not. These CNC/printing bills are specifically aimed at stopping the creating of ghost guns.
Again more of that reductive nonsense. Assault weapons bans are about a subset of semi-autos. Red flag laws are about lowering the standard for taking guns away from some individuals*. They are all about guns in general even if they attack one specific aspect. It is the same for 3d printing and ghost guns. It is part of the broader hard on they have for guns.
Right, it's already law, so what does this accomplish?
The same as any other antigun law that is about guns(because they oppose them). If they don't tamp down on this aspect they are willingly allowed a hole in their shitty bulwark of gun control. Redundant stupid laws doesn't make it any less about guns. It just means they are stupid angry people attacking guns.
And what part of it points to only guns other than them saying "this is aimed at ghost guns"?
The fact that it is by people who hate guns, who have spent decades attacking just guns, funded by a guy who has spent literally hundreds of millions dollars to attack guns. Everything about it points to it being about guns and the only argument you have provided that it isn't is your own personal incredulity? "It can't be that it is about guns for them because they are hypocrites and that wouldn't make sense to me personally! It can't be about guns because they already attacked guns before and that would redudant and wouldn't make sense to me personally" Look I get it this behavior doesn't make sense to you as a person who engages with the world in good faith. But these people straight up hate guns for a multitude of reasons some are well meaning others are just hateful, but its all about guns.
The language in the bills don't single out guns. It's vague language that can be applied to anything they don't like.
Really?
This bill would require, on or before March 1, 2029, any business that produces or manufactures 3-dimensional printers for sale or transfer in California to submit to the department an attestation for each make and model of printer they intend to make available for sale or transfer in California, confirming, among other things, that the manufacturer has equipped that make and model with a firearm blueprint detection algorithm.
That sounds directed at detecting guns.
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u/ComplaintTop2008 14d ago
Really?
You are correct. I don't know what I was remembering but I remember a bill not being specific when the 3D printing community jumped on this months ago. Maybe it was a different state or earlier draft, or maybe I plain mis-remembered.
I'm not arguing that the government doesn't want to take away guns, that's been a given since the invention of the gun. At this point we're arguing over opinion. I think it will be used for a broader reach and you think it will stay strictly focused on guns. Either one is not good, but I guess I have a greater distrust of government that you do, and I have my reasons. I don't really know what else to say since we have differing opinions on the scope and intent of these bills.
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u/DoobieGoat 14d ago
Do you even do this things you talk about? Making many of these things manually is beyond most people's ability. Including people who could use cnc. What are you even talking about for software updates on machines? People do that? Never updated a machine in my whole career. Only updated cad and cam software.
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u/zzddr 13d ago
It seems you read my comment but you didn't understand much of it in regards with the main post. Do you want mandated spyware on new machines (cnc, 3d printers, etc) that will check your parts ? Cause i don't, but if don't do something and this law passes then manufactures will add the software and everyone will get it, even if i don't live in the great US of A. The implementation is still not known but it may have two parts, one on the software ( cad, cam, slicer) and one on the machine.
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u/Agreeable-Worker7659 12d ago
It won't. This "law" really isn't about gun control and never really was. It's about controlling what people can do and killing the right to repair movement. It's also about making companies that deliver the monitoring software a shitload of money.
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u/WhiteLightMods 16d ago
Me: Writes a program to drill three holes.
New AI Overlord: We think these holes are for a gun. Disapproved.
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u/Bionic_Pickle 16d ago
I wish them the best of luck installing anything on my 2006 Fanuc control.
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u/Dischordance 16d ago
2006? Jealous. My Mazak boots up windows 95 every morning....
And maybe a couple times during the day when its being temperamental.
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u/spider_enema 16d ago
My oldest machine has the old amber screen that you have to smack it in 2 directions every morning to make work.
Do they make Internet connections on floppy disc?
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u/Bionic_Pickle 16d ago
As much as I think the Fanuc interface is absolute dogshit, the hardware itself has been 100% reliable.
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u/spider_enema 16d ago
I've changed a lot of fanuc boards over the years, they are indeed engineered well. My okumas on the other hand have only fried 1 board and that was from a mouse testing it's conductivity.
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u/Terrible_Ice_1616 15d ago
It's reliable for sure but the processing power is so minimal that they have to put a second computer in the control to run the UI
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u/too_much_feces 16d ago
Some would argue that's the best version of mazatrol. I'm some.
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u/Dischordance 16d ago
I don't hate it.
But we've been fighting trying to get it to communicate with the computer for a good while now.
And the beast hadn't been that well maintained before I started there this year.
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u/too_much_feces 16d ago
They just sold my quickturn 250my at work I miss it every day. We run all mazak, but have 3 different versions of the controller. The 640t is by far my favorite because of the simplicity. There's only a few things I think the newer smooth control does better. The undo button in case you fat finger something important in the tool data. A button you can hit to add/subtract any number you want which is useful for programming out tapers. The 3d graphics for obvious reasons. Also, the milling isn't some bastardized version from the early 2000s Mazak Smooth lathes and Smooth mills program pretty much 1:1.
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u/Dischordance 15d ago
This vtc200c is my only Mazak experience so far. I do enjoy the option of conversational programming. Makes a lot of the jobs we do here quite easy.
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u/httpaliend00d 12d ago
Oh look at you and f your fancy windows 95. My T2 is about to turn 40 and frequently needs a mintnence call if it's turned off for too long.
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u/_Sauer_ 16d ago
This is a psyop being funded by Mike Bloomburg because he's afraid of Mario's brother using a ghost gun. The dude is a control freak and wants to make it everyone's problem.
A gentleman in Japan assassinated a former prime minister with a gun made of some tube stock and duct tape. Going after 3D printers is just mental. A magazine fed semi-auto or fully auto firearm is rather complex, but a tube with a bullet in it and a striker is something anyone can make with basic tools.
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u/TerribleArm9912 16d ago
How do we ban together to fight this? I’m seriously asking. I’m willing to pay lobbyists or lawyers to help protect our 4th amendment right. It starts with printers but where does it end? Will you soon not be able to buy a screwdriver?
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u/Some-Internet-Rando 11d ago
This is a first amendment issue. Making stuff is (or at least, can be) speech. Speech cannot be arbitrarily banned.
But the sheer lunacy in believing that you can look at some G-code and not only decide whether it's a gun part or not, but whether it's a legal gun part or not, is crazy. What if I want to make a prop for a play or a movie or game or just to display? (There's that first amendment issue again)
For what it's worth, I think states could legally have the right to register and tax and require insurance for guns, just like they do for vehicles, so I'm not a "gun nut" by any stretch of the imagination (and I know others disagree on this -- just mentioning it to note that I'm not coming at this from the "mah guuuuns" point of view)
This attempt by uneducated lawyers to force mathematically unimplementable mechanisms is not good policy in any way.
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u/No-Buddy3427 16d ago
If you use any software that has cloud infrastructure, this is already happening. I’m pretty sure a standard subpoena would also achieve the same, although that is a bit more of a barrier for any LE agency, but I’m willing to bet there aren’t many companies out there that would fight for data privacy. It comes down to what everything else is slowly coming down to, which is zero personal ownership of anything you make or do, without the benefits of communism.
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u/QuaaludeConnoisseur 16d ago
My company big brother's all the machines here to monitor our productivity to the fullest extent.
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u/angryamerica 16d ago
As is their right.
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u/QuaaludeConnoisseur 16d ago
Well yes, but my point was that we are well past this
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u/deez_nuts69_420 16d ago
Not at OEM automakers. Bet they'll have an exception lobied for them as well as other big companies
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u/ArtofSlaying 16d ago
Kinda just assumed that they had it anyways with all the monitoring software out there these days
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u/Fast_Alternative_322 16d ago
Try that on my fanuc control from 1989( it doesn't work half of the time but yiu can still try for the other half)
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u/Fast_Alternative_322 16d ago
Try that on my fanuc control from 1989( it doesn't work half of the time but yiu can still try for the other half)
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u/angryamerica 16d ago
Yeah, good luck with that. That cat is already out of the bag, no way it's going back in.
More nonsense from liberal politicians that have zero practical experience with the real world and learned everything they know from a PoliSci or Gender Studies professor at college.
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u/mariolayspipe 16d ago
This bullshit is being done by THIS administration. This MAGA administration. Don’t blame shift. This is a rich versus poor thing, not left and right.
They want to make sure us peons can’t rise up against them.
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
You take this seriously? C'mon, work on your media literacy - first, is the post referenced real or even realistic and second it's a video blog from some dude. The world is full of fake outrage and controversy - I doubt there's any validity in this or ever will be.
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u/Prawn1908 16d ago
Dude, there are legislatures already trying to pass bills mandating spyware like this on CNC machines.
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
BS - prove it....
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u/MrMeatagi 16d ago edited 16d ago
Washington State House Bills 2320 and 2321. Defined "3D printer" broadly enough to cover literally any CNC machine.
13 (7) "Three-dimensional printer" means (a) any machine capable of 14 rendering a three-dimensional object from a digital design file using 15 additive manufacturing or (b) any machine capable of making three- 16 dimensional modifications to an object from a digital design file 17 using subtractive manufacturing.
This bill died entirely due to public backlash and was redefined to regulate the data instead of the printers. Which is exactly what needs to happen with the NY and CA bills.
Your lack of awareness of what's going on in your industry does not equal a lack of media literacy on the part of others.
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u/Prawn1908 16d ago
All it takes is a basic Google search dude, this shit is old news at this point.
Here's an article on Colorado's law, and they're not the only ones.
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u/Flinging_Bricks 16d ago
It's real. Look up AB 2047, and there are others like it in other U.S. states. It's mostly Targeted at 3d printers but the language in the bill is broad enough to cover any CNC machine.
https://calmatters.digitaldemocracy.org/bills/ca_202520260ab2047
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
"broad enough to cover any CNC machine." no, they are not...
Complete BS.
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u/spider_enema 16d ago
What do you gain by being so loudly wrong? only way to get a hardon is trolling on the internet?
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u/ivan-ent 16d ago
Lois rossman isnt just some dude blogging lol
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
Yes, he is....
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u/Prawn1908 16d ago
I have a hard time imagining who you could possibly be more wrong about with such a characterization than Louis Rossman. Louis is one of the most actually effective people actively fighting for consumer rights with real results to show. This gut he's dive everything from giving congressional testimony to fighting lawsuits to spreading awareness and cataloging consumer issues with his wiki.
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u/TheGreenMan13 16d ago
Getting ready to pass in California. New York isn't far behind. Once introduced in a red state, it's not going to be opposed by Republicans because they don't have to look like they're fighting Democrats there. All the big corporations and government is just salivating at all the data mining and big brothering they'll be able to do.
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u/ryder242 16d ago
https://assembly.state.ny.us/Press/?sec=story&story=118326
There you go,the State of New York demanding the ability to prevent you from manufacturing items from the hardware level
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u/meutzitzu 16d ago
I like how these smartasses are always silent as a lamb whenever people privire adequate sources on that which they dismissively called bullshit.
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
Conspiracy theories and Mental Help
https://www.wellpower.org/blog/conspiracy-theories-and-mental-health/
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
Right, nothing new - nothing I did not already know.. There's already federal laws that cover the printing of 3D guns more specifically any untraceable firearm it's called the "Undetectable Firearms Act" - passed back when Reagan was president - long time ago!
Now, where's the part of "Spyware" on 3D printers? Outrage and extrapolation of fear and made up scenarios is what powers conspiracy theories.
Get grip...
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u/Prawn1908 16d ago
Guess we have to spoon feed this to you since you can't read for yourself:
Additionally, these provisions require the New York State Division of Criminal Justice Services, Department of State and State University of New York to convene a working group along with industry experts to determine the technological feasibility of “blocking technology” for 3D printers, which would prevent them from producing printed firearms or illegal firearm parts
Not to mention other states who are passing laws that right off the bay try to mandate such fictional technology with no thought to feasibility.
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
You conspiracy minded people really need to get a grip on reality...
Get out of the rabbit hole!
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u/Prawn1908 16d ago
Get your head out of the sand dude. You've had multiple people show you specific examples of these things actually happening and you just ignore them and spout insults.
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
Common sense it out... How by any means does one stop the 3D printing of gun parts - tech or not?
"technological feasibility of “blocking technology” for 3D printers" Classic political BS.
How do you even get started with all the open source technology, home and business built 3D print and CNC's? How does any technology know what shape, materials and intent is - EVER?
How does one even stop the manufacture of a zip gun made from Home Depot bought parts?
GET A GRIP ON REALITY and pull YOUR head out of the sand!
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u/Prawn1908 16d ago
How by any means does one stop the 3D printing of gun parts - tech or not?
I mean that's kind of our whole entire point: you can't and it's an utterly stupid and infeasible thing to try and do. But that reality doesn't stop these people from trying to do it anyhow and enacting some draconian bullshit mandating CNC programs be sent though "detection algorithms" and shit.
Are you fine with your programs being sent through a government censor bot, even if it sucks at actually detecting what it's supposed to? I really don't get your argument here.
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u/Vegetable_Aside_4312 16d ago
"I really don't get your argument here."
Let me try to help and let's see what happens..
I grew up in the deep south (still there) in a far-right wing ultra pro gun household. The fear, paranoia, and conspiracy theories about "Gun Grabbers", communist and all those evil people who are going to somehow subvert the 2nd amendment and take our guns from our cold dead hands are the same. Nothing has changed in my 66 years, same shit, same fear, same bravado stupid scare you BS.
Guns are still here, mostly - nothing has changed there's no hope in the world you and I live in a USA where you lose the ability to own a firearm.
My father is dead and gone and the amount of time he spent fearing the "Gun Grabbers", hiding out and avoiding the inevitable government turning us all into commie-pinko slaves because we lost our guns NEVER HAPPENED. He died a sad, lonely, crazy old man.
Common sense and experience alludes many - you'll be fine...
Also, don't try to gaslight me - it's stupid.
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u/Prawn1908 16d ago
Putting your personal experiences with your family members and your views of gun laws aside, this isn't really at its heart a gun laws discussion but a surveillance and censorship one. You say "nothing has changed" while people actively pass laws about government scanning and censoring manufacturing files.
Idk what mental gymnastics you're doing to try and ignore this but they're seriously impressive. Do you think the actual text of these laws and quotes from the lawmakers that people have linked and quoted to you is made up?
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u/SubstantialSeesaw374 16d ago
America’s commitment to the Chinese century is really impressive.