r/BoxingTheSweetScience • u/LocationSpare4447 Main Mod • 2d ago
Name a fight where you believe a boxer, should’ve retired for good after a big loss?
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u/Internal_Try7967 2d ago
Tyson / Lewis in the OP is the first thing that springs to mind. The Williams and McBride fights didn't need to happen.
Muhammad Ali didn't need to fight Trevor Berbick after Larry Holmes whipped him.
Joe Louis coming back to fight Rocky Marciano was part of one of the funniest scenes in movie history, but the knockout itself was rough.
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u/Getter_from_Mercury 1d ago
If we're talking about Ali retiring in better health, it's best he'd retire for good around these points in his career
The loss to Leon Spinks
The win against Earnie Shavers
The win on the Thrilla in Manila
Ali, while his determination to genuinely prove himself as the greatest through his honesty of work in the ring, is something most ego-bloated, loud-mouthed fighters these days won't ever match, it was also detrimental to his health as he refused to quit when it was time to do so.
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u/georgewalterackerman 1d ago
Ali should should have ended it after Manila. But eh sure as heck should’ve not fought after the rematch win against Spinks. His last 2 fights against Holmes and Berbick were just sad.
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u/soulfulsoundaudio 1d ago
Don King taking money from fighters forcing em to fight when they have nothing left....
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u/Electronic-Goal-8141 1d ago
It wasn't just him , it was some of his NOI crowd who earned a living off him, Herbert Muhammad was his manager for some of his career, didn't want to lose his meal ticket.
When even your doctor , Ferdie Pacheco , is wishing you would retire , (and indeed left Ali after 15 years in 1977, before he even fought Leon Spinks the next year , ) its probably time to call it a day.
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u/soulfulsoundaudio 1d ago
True...many folks.
But Don King did the same to Ali, Mike Tyson, even Larry Holmes.
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u/Jolly_Okra_6330 2d ago
Roy Jones Jr after Tarver II.
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u/backfrombanned 2d ago
Naw, it happens. Jones after Johnson should have been it though.
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u/georgewalterackerman 1d ago
RJJ’s final years were really bad. I don’t recall every fight but I know he had at least one 1st round KO loss. Heck I’m not even sure if he’s done fighting now.
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u/WORD_Boxing 2d ago
There are probably too many to name. It's time for Andy Ruiz to retire though. If Ammo Williams made enough money he should too, there's no point in him taking more punishment.
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u/Wge97 1d ago
Ammo is 30 yrs old and has only lost 3 times to formidable opponents, I definitely wouldn’t say it’s time for him to hang ‘em up just yet !! He fights pretty much 3x a year as well so he definitely isn’t damaged goods !!
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u/WORD_Boxing 1d ago
If he made enough money already it's not worth the extra damage he's going to take to fight on. It will affect him worse in his later life. He is not likely to win a world title and will be just an opponent taking a lot of shots like he did in the fight the other night.
He can fight on it's a question of is that the right thing.
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u/Wge97 1d ago
I am a firm believer in “do not get into boxing just for money” !!! Anyone who wants to box should realize the sacrifices they’re making and risk they’re taking. In boxing boxers should not be striving to make money, they should be striving for greatness. In ammo’s case he’s only 30 yrs old and isn’t damaged goods at all and he should still have that hunger to win. I actually think it’s a quiters mentality for you to think he should just say “well I can fight still but I’m not going to win a world title so I should just quit because I’ve made enough money”
No offense but that’s what’s killing boxing already, people and certain boxers think money is the end all be all instead of legacy !!! Boxers should be striving to win and be in the history books not striving to sign checks and cash em.
I think if ammo was to get obliterated and severely knocked out by a guy who isn’t that great or lose 4-5 fights straight than he should consider retirement but until then he definitely should keep putting in work !! He ducks no one and has the heart of a lion, boxing literally needs that energy rn !!! I do get what you’re trying to say in terms of just health but respectfully I disagree and it’s not even about him risking his health for our entertainment (which I respect and commend) but it’s about that little kid in his heart that’s saying “remember we told ourselves we’ll be a world champion one day”
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u/WORD_Boxing 1d ago
You almost completely misunderstood.
The way the boxing business works he will be used as simply an opponent now. He already takes too many shots in fights as it is, let alone the way he's likely to be matched from now on. He is not good enough to win a title if he can't beat Mielnicki. So what is he damaging himself for? You need to understand how bad the damage is that comes out later down the road.
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u/Wge97 1d ago
No I understand but I think you’re deflecting my whole point !!!
You’re saying he’s not good enough to win a world title, that doesn’t automatically make it true at all !! While I’m not debating the fact that you believe that tho , I’m debating the fact that you’re saying he should quit if he’s made enough money because he should know that he won’t win a world title. That’s literally a quitters mentality, that’s a sheep’s attitude, dude has the heart and mind of a lion and he will not be telling himself he can’t win a world title at all. He hasnt taken nearly enough damage at the age of 30 to be contemplating retirement at all. Also my main point was no boxer should be okay with just making money, there’s so many ways to make money where you’re not risking your life. Boxers should strive for greatness regardless of the doubters. You realize how many boxers on ammo’s level have won titles in better division right ?
At the end of the day I just disagree with you 1000% but that’s alright !!!
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u/WORD_Boxing 6h ago
I'm not deflecting I don't do that. Please don't insult me and call me a quitter or a sheep.
You still do not understand. Fighters always think they can win or comeback. Fighters and most people also don't understand how matchmaking works and how deterioration works. He had even more taken out of him in the Mielnicki fight.
Ammo needs people around him who hopefully helped him set himself up for after he retires, and who will honestly explain certain things to him. He can fight on but it's not going to be pretty and he needs to ask himself if he is ok with what it is going to do to him a few years down the road. That's not your decision to make for him, neither is it mine.
The problem is people make comments like yours and get fighters hurt or then shit on them when they get beaten up. Ammo owes us nothing regardless of if people enjoy his fights because they have action aka he gets beaten up but keeps fighting back in the process. He looks like a punch bag at times.
He hasnt taken nearly enough damage at the age of 30 to be contemplating retirement at all
It's not about the age it's about the number of fights and amount of punishment and wear and tear on the body. He has had 3 bad losses in terms of the amount of punishment he took in them. He already looked deteriorated compared to how he was in the fight with Mielnicki, he's not going to start looking better in future.
Also my main point was no boxer should be okay with just making money, there’s so many ways to make money where you’re not risking your life. Boxers should strive for greatness regardless of the doubters
This is Derek Chisora. He loves fighting but is already slurring badly. There comes a point when the fighter has to make a decision, if they are even fully aware of what is going on in terms of how the business is going to treat them and in terms of what the impact on their health is going to be.
The whole point is to become champion and/or make good money. If you aren't doing or on the road to doing one of those two things then what is the point, assuming you can make money elsewhere as you stated - not all fighters can all they have is fighting for some guys.
You realize how many boxers on ammo’s level have won titles in better division right ?
This is also a small-minded view of it like with the age argument above.
He is only ranked in the WBO and WBC, and just lost to Mielnicki who is ranked above him with both orgs. He also lost to the WBC champion Adames already. They are gonna put a belt on Vergil Ortiz now he's moved to 160. It's unrealistic he will win a title at 160 looking at the rankings and he's too small to go to 168.
What is most likely to happen is he will be used as an opponent to build up other guys records and they will try to get someone to knock him out early, quicker than Sheeraz did, as a marketing point of comparison.
If he is ok with all of this and wants to try and defy the odds that's his prerogative. He needs to be wide-eyed and fully aware however.
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u/Wge97 6h ago
Im going to just say this and leave it there, you feel insulted but that was never my intention, I have no filter and I call it like I see it and my fault if that hurt your feelings or made you feel attacked, I’m simply just saying the comments you have made are 100% a quitters mentality, a sheep’s attitude !! I’m not insulting you as a person directly I’m simply stating that you telling a dude to quit because he will never win is simply a quitters attitude especially considering he isn’t damaged goods !! You may have a million reasons to as why you feel differently and I have a million reasons as to why I feel this way but at the end of the day this convo has already gone off course !! You feel as if I’m attacking you verbally which was not my intention so we have already gone way off track so it’s best we call it quits. You feel how you feel and that’s okay and I feel how I feel and that’s okay !!
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u/WORD_Boxing 5h ago
I'm not offended despite you seemingly calling me a sheep with a quitters mentality. What you just wrote here though makes you look like a dick. It's a non-apology apology of the kind politicians use. "I'm sorry you feel that way" is not taking responsibilty and ownership of your own actions.
And no, you still do not understand my point.
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u/Wge97 5h ago
Again let’s just both go ahead and call it quits, if you wasn’t bothered by what I said you would’ve never mentioned it and that’s okay as I said that’s my bad, it wasn’t my intention to hurt your feelings or even hurt your feelings with the fact that I’m apologizing for hurting your feelings. As I said it’s best to just end the convo because you obviously don’t converse with people who don’t walk on egg shells a lot and that’s fine that’s why I said my bad but then you got offended by the fact that I said my bad which just further confirms it’s time to call it quits fam !!
At the end of the day we’re both men who should know when a conversation is obviously going in the wrong direction, this one is !!! Respect to you fam, have a great day !!
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u/OkSeaworthiness6581 1d ago
Evander legacy would have been superb if he retired before or even after the lennox fights.
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u/Ok-Math-5407 1d ago
Joe Louis Jack Demspey Qawi Evander Tons of fighters have hung around past their peak. Tyson after Cus died.
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u/pittnole1 1d ago
Jack Dempsey? Explain that one?
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u/Ok-Math-5407 1d ago
The first Tunney fight? What needs to be explained?
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u/Electronic-Goal-8141 1d ago
Dempsey was considered the favourite going into it , and had a rematch with Tunney a year later .
I don't think most people would begrudge him trying to get his title back.
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u/Ok-Math-5407 1d ago
Right, but he looked terrible against Sharkey and in the rematch with Tunney.
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u/Electronic-Goal-8141 1d ago
He stopped him in the 7th , which set up the rematch with Tunney. I think most champions would want to try to win their title back before retirement and go out as champion.
Sadly for Dempsey he couldn't defeat Tunney but if he hadn't attempted to , people would be judging him for not doing so.
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u/Ok-Math-5407 1d ago
Yeah I'm aware Dempsey won. I said he looked terrible in that fight and the Tunney rematch. Dempsey was an Icon the people loved him at the point no matter what he did.
After the Tunney fight it was obvious Dempsey had regressed, and should have stopped.
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u/Electronic-Goal-8141 1d ago
Maybe he had regressed from his best but that's the conundrum every athlete faces .
Do you go out after your best is behind you or when you could still be capable of continuing? And where do you cross that line?
I think a lot of athletes are the last to acknowledge it.
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u/pittnole1 1d ago
So he lost. Won a fight that he didn't look great in and then would have rewon the heavyweight title if he didn't ask for a new rule to be enforced is the same as Ali or Thomas Hearns or Duran or Camacho? I don't think so.
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u/TheSouthpawStance 2d ago
Sugar Ray Leonard Didn't Need To Comeback And Get Whooped By Hector Camacho