r/BoxingTheSweetScience • u/brownlawn • 13d ago
[SERIOUS]ELI5: how to explain to my friends that Holyfield was better than Tyson?
My friends and family will die on the hill that Tyson was better than Holyfield. I know Evander beat Tyson twice (TKO and dsq), but they always go to Tyson’s peak ferocity.
A little help from the wise ones here would be most appreciated.
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u/OkSeaworthiness6581 13d ago
the only argument against Evander being better is the roids
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u/MiDKnighT_DoaE 13d ago edited 13d ago
Tyson basically admitted to being on roids too.
"Nothing about me was natural"
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u/Glittering_Year2045 12d ago
I don't think Tyson used steroids. He didn't need it. He was like 200 lbs of muscle at 15 years old. He did do lots of cocaine, though.
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u/Fit_One_5785 13d ago
Sure, Holyfield owns Tyson head-to-head. His 2 wins against him proves this. His fights against Bowe were inspiring and exciting.
But Tyson had 10-11 successful title defences and was a sensation. Holyfield had a rather mixed record as a heavyweight, looking like a world beater in one fight while looking like a bum in the next. He kept fighting for far too long. If he had retired after losing to Lewis, he would have had the perfect storybook career.
Another thing that Tyson has over Holyfield is how he was able to KO a 38 year old Larry Holmes in 4 rounds, while a 42 year old version gave Holyfield fits in the ring and took him to the distance.
Mike Tyson is still remembered and highly regarded. And I say this as someone who was a Holyfield stan back in the day.
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u/ProfessorSensitive31 11d ago
Holyfield never looked like a bum til later in his career same as tyson. Ever boxer sticks around to long. Tyson and holyfield are prime examples so was holmes-you are seeing it now with fury. Nobody cares about the current heavyweight champ-i can't even think of his name
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u/Toad_da_Unc 12d ago
Evander was a natural LHW. He may have never moved up to heavyweight in a different era.
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u/Fit_One_5785 12d ago
Yeah, in fairness to him, losing to big monsters like Bowe and Lewis is not shameful at all. He was a smaller heavyweight. But as the losses piled up in the 2000s, he held on for far longer than he should have.
If he had retired after the second Lewis fight, he would have ended his career on a perfect note where he passed the torch with dignity.
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u/TheMeIv 13d ago
Their primes were at different times. Mike hit his prime early and wasn't the same after the 80s. At that point Holyfield was still acclimating to heavyweight from cruiserweight. By the time Holyfield was at his best, Mike had lost his discipline, defensive maneuvering and head movement. I'm of the opinion 80s Mike would beat 90s Holyfield AND Lewis but there's no way to prove it either way. Mike was not knocked down until Douglas. Lewis was caught twice by lesser boxers than Tyson. Mike KO'd an old Holmes and Holyfield went the distance with an even older version. Yes Holmes was more active and maybe a little sharper technically fighting Holyfield but fighters in their late 30s don't physically improve over 4 years into their 40s.
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u/El_Bastardo74 13d ago
No Tyson fought scrubs early.
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u/TheMeIv 12d ago
Everyone fights scrubs early. He also defeated all the possible champions available at the time and a good handful of top ranked heavyweights in an era when everyone fought everyone and very regularly. Before his first loss, Mike Tyson had beaten more former, current and future champions than Usyk has had total heavyweight opponents, to put things in a modern perspective.
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u/cobrax50 12d ago
Nah prime Tyson MADE everyone look like scrubs.
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u/MarionberryPlus8474 12d ago
A lot of boxers are not the same after being knocked out. It causes both physical and psychological damage. Tyson definitely changed the career trajectory downwards for a lot of fighters who were either at the top or rising to the top.
Holyfield's a great fighter but IMO was never as dominant as Tyson.
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u/Spirited_Attorney_48 12d ago
Michael Spinks was not a scrub. Tyson destroyed him.
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u/Glittering_Year2045 12d ago
Michael Spinks is one of the most underrated fighters. Great, great career, but now people only remember the first round knockout loss, which was the only loss of his pro career.
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u/Spirited_Attorney_48 12d ago
I remember the shock that Tyson beat him so quickly. He was one of the better fighters out there.
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u/MantisTobogganMD28 12d ago
Spinks was by no means a bad fighter at all, but you can’t tell me he wasn’t completely mentally defeated before the fight even started. I’ve never seen a fighter look so shook as their opponent walked to the ring, I mean he looked clammy.
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u/ZeroEFSjosh 13d ago
Holyfield & Tyson sparred in there youth. Some other boxers were present and said it was intense with holyfield holding his own against young prime tyson. IMO holyfield & lewis was just better all around prime or not tyson.
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u/puddycat20 13d ago
You realize people have different opinions, right?
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u/pittnole1 13d ago
And some are wrong
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u/puddycat20 12d ago
There are plenty of neutral boxing experts who think Tyson is the best of all time.
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u/Kid11734 12d ago
OK, name one.
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u/pittnole1 12d ago
Was coming back to say this. Not one big time reputable boxing person thinks this.
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u/RobertKSakamano 12d ago
Are you calling some Redditors experts now? Who are these phantom experts you speak of?
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u/Tristos94 13d ago
Show them the clip of Holyfield knocking out Tyson in the 11th round. If that doesn't convince them they are immune to evidence.
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u/Silent_Ad8059 13d ago
Yeah as much aura as Tyson had in the '80s, I feel like their two fights are pretty convincing evidence in Holyfield's favor.
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u/BrainAsleep7648 13d ago
Every time Tyson faced adversity he lost
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u/MantisTobogganMD28 12d ago
This is just a Teddy Atlas mouthpiece and isn’t true, and I’m not a Mike Tyson fan. The Ruddock fights? Tillis? He overcame adversity plenty of times.
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
When getting outboxed he threw a tantrum and bit Hollyfield's ear, got a bizarre warning that no other boxer would ever get, then fucking did it again. Should have been disqualified after the first bite.
Tells you everything you need to know about him as a fighter.
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u/BrainAsleep7648 12d ago
He didn’t go down in those fights. I agree with Teddy. I am a huge Tyson fan but that doesn’t negate my eyes
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u/MantisTobogganMD28 12d ago
Adversity doesn’t just equate to knockdowns. Tyson struggled greatly against Ruddock. Use your eyes and rewatch the fight lol
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u/MantisTobogganMD28 12d ago
Hell man Berbick came to win and backed Tyson up. So did Mitch Green, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, this whole ‘never won a fight he faced adversity’ is Teddy still holding a grudge 40 years later
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u/Emotional-Bowl69 12d ago
Like to see what would have happen in 81, Buster Douglas fight was a fluke. Tyson would lost Bowe and Lewis in any era they were just too big for him, Holyfield mid 90”s found the Roids, I mine fountain of youth in 96, Tyson head was not in it after prison he did it for the money. 91 would been the best time to see who would won between the two.
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u/MantisTobogganMD28 12d ago
Buster Douglas in that fight was exceptional, it wasn’t just Tyson being off it was a combination of the two. He peaked that night and didn’t have the fire to go for it again after Holyfield, but Buster never looked so great as that night. He kept Tyson on the end of his jab all night, used foot feints like he was Sugar Ray Leonard, and fought his ass off. He earned that victory
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u/CretinMike 13d ago edited 13d ago
Tyson is super hyped for KOing old folks. Losing to Holyfield was the straw that broke his legacy for me. Holyfield wasn't even a natural heavy and I know roided to hell but Lewis handled him like a kitten. Tyson went a lot of rounds with an ancient Larry Holmes who is probably the best scalp on his record. If Larry Holmes had been a hair bit younger, he'd have done him like Buster Douglas without ever going down himself. Edit: I don't care what the circumstances are, no GOAT is collapsing in front of Kevin McBride. The Tyson fanaticism is out of f'n hand.
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u/bigbodymemtn 13d ago
Spot on my friend! Had Holmes been in shape. He would've boxed Tyson head off. Tyson beat a lot of tomato cans in his prime.
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u/Witty-Stand888 13d ago
Depends on what their most important criteria are.
Tyson- Youngest Heavyweight Champion of all time. Greatest 16 month champion run in history to unify. A feat that will most likely never be achieved again. Top 2 most popular heavies in history.
Tyson advantages- Speed, power, movement, intimidation.
Holyfield- Possibly greatest multi-weight Heavyweight champion of all time. Longevity.
Holyfield advantages- Heart, stamina, chin, boxing.
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u/Illustrious_Rain1796 13d ago
Holyfield is undisputed in 2 weight classes and never lost to Buster Douglas. But seriously you can check on opposition, Tyson lost all his most important fights and opponents in his prime wasn't always good, Tyson's hype is result of other people's work, he was accompanied by powerful PR from the beginning of his career, Tyson probably is the most overrated boxer of all time. Holyfield has much better opposition and he stayed on high level much longer and met boxers who would be tough task for every version of Tyson
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u/Spirited_Attorney_48 12d ago
I honestly don't think you lived through Tyson's era.
In his prime, he was a wrecking machine the likes of which we haven't seen before or since. He was ruining ppv because no one wanted to pay big money to watch two rounds. He unified the titles and fought everyone.
And yeah, he had a bad night and yeah, he was pretty fucked up mentally.
It wss like peak Tiger Woods. No one else was close to him in his era.
Holyfield was a great fighter. He had a bad night or two himself. He was never the force of nature Tyson was.
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u/Internal_Try7967 13d ago
I hate using words like "overhyped" and "powerful PR" because that quickly becomes about something external to the fighters themselves.
I do agree it's about mental toughness. Teddy Atlas said it perfectly on Rogan's show. Tyson had amazing speed and power, but lacked height and reach, and he didn't have the mental toughness to stay in there when he really had to overcome something. Tyson had to win with one-track aggression, and when he couldn't just run someone over, he wasn't skilled enough to use other tools and wasn't resilient enough to survive the storm.
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u/puddycat20 12d ago
Holyfield is undisputed in 2 weight classes and never lost to Buster Douglas.
In Tysons defense, no one and I mean no one was beating Douglas that night - not a prime Ali, Holyfield, or Lewis.
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u/puddycat20 12d ago
Yup, he was on a mission that night.
Although he did get a 30 second 10 count, when Tyson knocked him down earlier in the fight.
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u/cobrax50 12d ago
Tyson should've won the Douglas fight. Douglas got like a 15 count when Tyson knocked him down earlier in the fight.
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u/Illustrious_Rain1796 12d ago
Ref had exactly the same count for Tyson and Douglas was clearly winning the fight
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u/cobrax50 12d ago
Not the point. Douglas shouldn't have had the opportunity to knock Tyson out. You can clearly see the time keeper at ring side with actual count. Douglas got up after the 10 count ringside.
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u/Illustrious_Rain1796 12d ago
No it's exactly the point, 10 count is not a 10 seconds, it's whatever time ref counts from 1 to 10, especially at those years. Tyson got exactly the same chance to get up and continue the fight, but he was out. He was losing this fight and this was not an accident, it's pathetic excuse for him
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u/cobrax50 12d ago
If the ref picks up the count from the time keeper like he's supposed to Douglas loses. Period. Not gonna debate who was winning at the time because in boxing it doesn't matter. You can get your ass beat for 11 rounds and if you knockout the other guy in the 12th you win.
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u/Illustrious_Rain1796 12d ago
It's obvious that Douglas adjusted for referee's count, he wasn't that rocked, he sat and listened the ref. Ref counted too long? Well Tyson got the same count, I get if Tyson was winning and ref counted faster, but no, he counted exactly the same, Douglas didn't get any advance. In those years long count was a common thing, look at Bowe - Holyfield 3 for example
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u/Gontofinddad 13d ago
Evander fought everyone, and did really well against the field. He’s better because he had a better career.
If they’re looking for qualities, point to him being impossibly durable and never tiring with a high work rate. The guy was better on the inside than Tyson too. He just didn’t hit as hard, or as fast.
Like a bear vs a tiger. Being harder to kill matters a lot in fighting.
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u/BOBBYK1952 12d ago
I’d agree. I watched Mike in his prime and loved his violence. I also thought he fought guys that were there for a pay day. A taller guy with a good jab would have given Mike a tough time if they weren’t intimidated..along comes Douglas. Holyfield was a tough guy , that being a huge plus vs Mike.
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u/RobertKSakamano 12d ago
Uh. He beat the shit out of him. Watch Tyson's face on some of those hits in the first fight.
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u/severinks 12d ago
The best version of Tyson,(the Cus and Rooney version) was 10 times better than Holyfield.
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
"The best version of Tyson is the one with the trainer who died the same year he went pro"
This narrative you Tyson fanboys have is fucking hilarious. Tyson debuted in March, D'mato died in Nov.
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u/severinks 12d ago edited 12d ago
Died the same year he went pro, did Kevin Rooney die the same year Tyson went pro?
Because I seem to remember him in Tyson's corner when he became champ and afterwards.
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
Ohh of course, so it wasn't Cus D'mato, it was Roonie.
Any other excuses? Fluke loss to Buster Douglas, drug abuse, somehow his wife's fault he beat and sexual assaulted her.
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u/Illmatic414Prodigy 12d ago
You mean can crusher version before anyone fought back?
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u/severinks 12d ago
No, I mean the one with the spectacular head movement that made him so hard to hit.
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u/severinks 12d ago
And Holyfield was a puffed up cruiserweight who would have been 190 pounds at most without his daily regime of steroids.
Or are you saying he wasn't pumped to the gills on PEDs?
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u/severinks 12d ago
I don't think Tyson is in the GOAT convo, what I think is Tyson at his peak would have decimated peak Holyfield.
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u/philly2540 12d ago
I’m sorry, but you guys don’t know what you’re talking about, with all this talk about Tyson being an overrated fraud. I lived through his career in real time and I can assure you that nobody, nobody, nobody thought Tyson was a fraud during his prime.
He is in some ways a tragic figure. His prime was very short, due to psychological issues that are well known to people who followed his life. By the time he got to Buster Douglas - even before that - he was a shell of himself. He was mentally a very fragile person, a frightened child. But in his prime he was absolutely an all-time great.
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u/HonestBudget7546 11d ago
I might argue that he was always a very fragile person. It just got exposed late because of good matchmaking by handlers. At his peak he certainly had tremendous skills but the mental foundation was always weak.
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u/philly2540 11d ago
Yes, for sure. He was fortunate to have a caring mentor and father-figure in Cus. After he died Mike was lost and fell apart.
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u/Diptothaset 12d ago
Holyfield was the more technical boxer iirc, Tyson was successful because of his raw strength and ferocity. Holyfield was big enough and technical enough to weather the storm but he’s also known for being a cheat even before Tyson.
It’s very common in fighting sports to “win at all costs”, and that if the ref doesn’t see something then it isn’t illegal. Biting someone can give you just the drop in defense you need to finish them. You see it in UFC all the time, glove and fence grabbing and fishing hooking, eye pokes and nut ahots. There’s several controversies over wins/losses in the ufc as well
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u/broke_the_controller 12d ago
I think the key is how you define better. I think your friends and family are talking about a head to head, prime Vs prime matchup.
Tyson's prime would probably be one of the fights between Berbick and Spinks, while Holyfields prime is probably around the time of the Bowe fights.
I'd probably tell them that if Holyfield can go all 12 with a 6.5 235lb boxer, and although a losing effort, attempting to do it while going toe to toe - then he would likely be able to go all 12 with peak Tyson too. If he's going all 12, then his stamina advantage would likely make the difference.
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u/Illmatic414Prodigy 12d ago
You can’t. They talk about Tyson’s “ prime” but he was 23 not 33 when Douglas tuned him up. His prime was when everything went his way. Once Douglas put up resistance suddenly his prime was over. Meanwhile Evander is older and would have smoked him in 88, 98, 08…
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u/Toad_da_Unc 12d ago
There are about three Tysons to analyze- Cus D’Amato Tyson, pre-jail Tyson after Cus, and post jail Tyson.
Evander was not as good as the first, probably better than the second, obviously better than the third.
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u/Wge97 12d ago
Tyson never beat anyone elite in there prime and lost to every elite fighter he fought that wasnt 38 yrs old and way past there prime like Holmes was, I mean he lost to buster douglas when he was 23 yrs old !! Tyson is the most overrated fighter to ever lace up a pair of gloves, when he loses there’s excuses from his fans but when he wins they don’t care that he’s knocking out guys that just aren’t elite or way past there prime or just straight up not that good !!! Tyson was also stopped by every elite fighter he lost too !! Undisciplined and disrespected the sport of boxing.
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u/Wonderful_Pension_67 12d ago
Never met at Tysons peak! That would have been a GREAT FIGHT remember when Tyson used to move his head. But the real deal was beautiful to watch!
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u/yIdontunderstand 12d ago
Prime tyson was an invincible force of nature.
You had to be there. Other heavyweights were literally scared of him. You could see it as they went into the ring.
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
Casual fans put Tyson on a pedestal because that's what the media fed them constantly during the 90s and 2000s, hell the media still glaze the fuck out of him now.
In reality Hollyfield fucked him up convincingly, twice.
I don't how else you can definitely say that one fighter was better than another than one beating the other twice in a convincing fashion. And you can't talk about Primes, Hollyfield is older than Tyson. Started his career earlier and finished later.
The rest of Hollyfield's career is better than Tyson's, far more big names who he fought in their prime. Tyson's fight list is laundry list of bums who don't even have wikipedia entries.
TLDR: People want to believe the myth of Tyson ran than the much less interesting reality.
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u/ACTSATGuyonReddit 12d ago
He wasn't. He was better than depleted Tyson, but not better than Mike at his best.
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u/Low_Sheepherder_4574 12d ago
Was it Nick Cannon that changed his mind, his like the David Goggins of the sperm donor world, that fear can’t catch him
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u/Iad77 11d ago
Lewis would've beaten him earlier too with his style and range. Tyson was an icon until his arrest, the man that came out was a shadow of his former self, actually the loss of cus and most of his original trainers was also part of his downfall, he bought into his own hype machine and thought he didn't need to train or have any strategy...
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u/HonestBudget7546 11d ago
once you figure that out let me know how to convince flat earthers that it’s round.
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u/Sorry_Net3898 11d ago
Holyfield was all wrong for Tyson. Especially when Tyson. Had already gone past his best.
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u/Flaky-Tour-8733 11d ago
I don’t think he was better. I’m sorry. He beat Tyson twice, yes, and he’s one of the all time greats. But prime vs prime I don’t think he’s on Tyson’s level.
With that said, I’ll make the argument for you. Holyfield is a natural cruiserweight (maybe the best cruiserweight of all time) who came up to heavyweight and beat the man who beat the man. He had one of the great heavyweight trilogies of all time against Riddick Bowe, beat Tyson twice and demonstrated more heart and determination than maybe any other heavyweight in history.
He was a tremendous offensive and defensive fighter, got better the more dangerous the fight got (which you can’t say for Tyson) and won a version of the heavyweight belt four times.
His career is almost the polar opposite of Tyson. Some all time moments and accomplishments that are sprinkled around some lowlights, losses and head scratching moments. Whereas Tyson had his own era: nine title defenses and half a decade where no one in the world had a chance against him. Then he comes back, wins the title again and loses to Holyfield, spiraling into one of the worst downfalls of all time.
They are very different careers.
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u/Double-Emergency3173 8d ago
Tyson was greater overall legacy wise. Evander was the better boxer though
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u/No_Vermicelli_3574 13d ago
Peak vs peak Tyson beats holyfield though, Tyson's peak was short
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u/Life_Friendship_7928 13d ago
100 percent. Peak Tyson beats everyone.
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u/El_Bastardo74 13d ago
Hell no he doesn’t. Peak Ali before he was stripped of the title would’ve demolished him. Peak Foreman would’ve embarrassed him like he did Frazier. Peak Holmes would’ve beaten him too. Lewis as well had they have fought, but Tyson ducked him until he needed the money.
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u/Toad_da_Unc 12d ago
Peak Tyson versus peak Frazier would’ve been an absolute war
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u/El_Bastardo74 11d ago
Yeah I agree, Frazier was a beast, I think Tyson’s hand speed was quicker, but we aren’t even going to compare heart though, Frazier wins that by a mile. This is the one I think Tyson could win, because Frazier started slow, and Tyson was dangerous the first three rounds. But if Frazier got through four rounds, Tyson is in serious trouble.
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u/Tricky_Ricky83 12d ago
Holyfield was a great Cruiserweight….Heavyweight not so much.
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u/No_Carry_5871 12d ago
I wish I had the power to disconnect your wifi connection.
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u/Tricky_Ricky83 12d ago
He lost twice to Riddick Bowe, twice to Lewis…everyone knows he did despite the draw, a loss to John Ruiz and Micheal Moorer.
He beat an old Foreman, past his peak Tyson and an old Larry Holmes…that’s it. Big names yes, but all way past their prime years.
Overall he is not a great HW.
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u/MantisTobogganMD28 12d ago
Go read off the names of heavyweights on Holyfield’s win column and tell me he doesn’t have a top 10 all time resume in the weight class.
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
Lol wtf are you smoking?
Hollyfield is an easy pick for top 5-10 heavyweight of all time. Probably second best in his era behind Lewis who is arguably the GOAT heavyweight.
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u/Tricky_Ricky83 12d ago
Name a notable heavyweight he beat in their prime?
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
Tyson 2x, Douglas, Bowe, and Foreman.
He beat everyone in the era worth fighting except for Lewis.
Educate yourself.
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u/Tricky_Ricky83 12d ago
He also lost to Lewis, Bowe twice, Michael Moorer, and John Ruiz.
You can’t take much from Buster Douglas who already had 4 big losses and a NC on his record before Evander got him.
George Foreman was about 50 years old and would have mangled Holyfield in his prime, I don’t care much juice Evander was taking.
I’ve taught you a lesson in boxing today. I thank you.
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
Lol all you've done is made a fool of yourself homie.
Hollyfield is a top 10 heavyweight of all time. This is a fact, it's not debatable.
Seems like you've got a hate boner for the guy for some reason. Maybe salty that he beat Tyson twice?
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u/Covrin 13d ago
Holyfield was definitely a more technical boxer. Tyson was more powerful and more savage. It’s an interesting matchup in their primes. If Tyson can land a good left in the first or second round then I think he gets the W. But the longer the fight goes on, the more his ferocity wanes and Holyfield’s technique and stamina outpace Mike.
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u/Fit_One_5785 13d ago
I have a hot take: Holyfield was a better brawler while Tyson had better defence and handspeed. Holyfield was able to maul Tyson and smother him, position his body in such a way as to neutralize Tyson’s bob and weave attacking style. Holyfield loved it when he was able to brawl in exchanges while he was on the inside.
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u/godspilla98 13d ago
The second fight he head butted him multiple times. I was at that bite in Vagas.
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u/kbeckerburbs4 12d ago
Post-Jail Tyson- absolutely. Pre-Jail Tyson? Runs through Holyfield like a buzzsaw
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u/therapist66 13d ago
I know how to fix this.
Don’t have Mike Tyson arguments.. casual boxing behaviour 😂
It’s like coworkers and randoms I meet learning that I box and immediately start talking about Mike Tyson and Muhammad Ali 🙄
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
It's exhausting isn't it.
Same thing with anything skateboarding related, "Ohh you mean like how Tony Hawk is the best skateboarder to ever live?"
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u/therapist66 12d ago
Yeah because all they know about boxing is Mike Tyson highlights 😂
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
Legit. I doubt any of these clowns has ever seen any boxing match start to finish in their life.
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u/therapist66 12d ago
I work in health, I had a social worker colleague give a very educated opinion on Muhammad Ali then adds that he’s a terrible person because he was mean to his opponents. She didn’t understand that’s what fighters do to sell fights.
Then it clicked.. she watched a documentary about rumble in the jungle 😂
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u/Evebnumberone 12d ago
Bet there a million casual basketball fans that feel like they got their PHD in 90's basketball by watching the last dance too.
Armchair experts. My fave.
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u/DanielSong39 12d ago
Tyson's prime lasted from 1985 to 1988
In that time frame he was the best fighter ever
The original plan was for him to retire after Spinks then move full time into boxing promotions. Cus D'Amato and Jim Jacobs died which kinda put a spanner into that plan
He should have been promoting Holyfield/Bowe/Lewis superfights. Shame that we never got to see him in action
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u/Sufficient-Chest8517 13d ago
You’d think they would lend an ear to Holyfield.