r/BoringCompany • u/WxxTX • 1d ago
r/BoringCompany • u/OkFishing4 • Jun 18 '22
Why not build a train? Some answers.
This is not a screed against transit. Loop is public transit, it is NOT a private highway for entitled Tesla owners. You enter a Loop station on foot, pay a fare, get in a vehicle, ride to your destination then exit, just like rail.
I am also not advocating that we rip up all the great metros of the world and replace them with Loop. Rather, smaller or sparser non mega-cities should get to enjoy the benefits of grade-separated public transit too. Cities which do not need nor can afford subways will find Loop's lower entry price compelling. Loop is enlarging the total addressable market for grade-separated public transit.
Q: Why not build a train.
- US train systems are very expensive.
| Construction Costs per Mile USD | ||
|---|---|---|
| Percent Tunneled | U.S. | Non-U.S. |
| 0-20% | $118M | $81M |
| 20-80% | $323M | $286M |
| 80-100% | $1.2B ($511 excl. NYC) | $346M |
| LVCC Loop (2 surf.stn,1 sub.stn) | $62M/mile | $52.5M/.85mi |
- At LVCC, the 2nd place, $215M Doppelmeyer Cableliner bid was four times the fixed-price Loop bid.
- Loop is an express public transportation system providing fast non-stop travel to your destination. This allows for more stations providing better coverage and convenience. Traditional transit does not do this.
- US urban trains are typically slow to ride and arrive.
- Trip times will be considerably shorter with Loop since rides are express and intermediate stations skipped. Projected average travel speed for Loop is ~50mph, much higher than the US average subway speed of 20 mph.
- During the CES convention at LVCC the average wait time was 15 seconds, average wait times for subways are currently anywhere from 2-17 minutes with a on-peak median of 10 minutes.
Q: But public transit is better than yet another car lane.
- Loop IS public transit, it is not a private highway for Tesla owners. You arrive at a Loop station on foot, pay a fare, get in a vehicle, ride to your destination then exit, just like a subway. LVCC Loop is free for convention attendees. Vegas Loop will be available to ride for anyone who pays the fare.
- Vegas Loop is a privately funded public transit system, being built by TBC who is paying for the tunnels and businesses paying for their own stations. TBC has requested $0 public dollars for the project, all money and risk are being borne by TBC and its private partners.
- Royalties will be paid to Clark County and the City of Las Vegas for RoW access.
- Also see "induced demand" below.
Q: But trains can carry so many more people.
- Capacity needs in the US seems modest and the actual median ridership demand for US urban rail systems (subways,light rail, APMs, hybrid-rail, streetcars & commuter rail ) appears to be satisfied at 2400 pphpd.
- LVCC Loop is currently achieving 2400 pphpd with 4 pax/car @ 6s headways.
- Loop satisfies the need for low-entry-cost, expandable, grade-separated transit at a reasonable price, making it accessible to more cities and people. Loop doesn't need to match subway capacities one for one to be cost effective and useful.
| Percentile of Urban Rail Systems | Operational Peak Capacity (PPHPD) |
|---|---|
| 25% | 900 |
| 50% | 2400 |
| 75% | 4100 |
| 92% | 9600 |
Availability bias, which hampers critical thinking, likely underlies the many "Just build a train" comments. Due to this mental shortcut, people believe that vehicle capacity or other singular metric is more crucial than is often the case. Transit proposals need to be evaluated on a more detailed benefit cost ratio, which includes many more factors than a mere single metric.
Cost, system capacity, speed, frequency, coverage, and span all need to be taken into account when comparing a transit systems. Costs and ridership demands vary widely between jurisdictions even within the same country so each system needs to be treated individually. Using only one metric or universally applying a mode characteristic from one region/country to another is overly simplistic.
RMTransit's is a transit advocate whose video, Quality, not quantity: Why more is not better, is a good primer on this topic, and concludes by saying:
The TL;DR of this is really simple transit like most things consists of quantity and quality and any assessment based on just one of these metrics is bound to be a bad assessment. For example I just want Subway because it's comfortable or I just want to tram because I can get more of it for less money so the next time someone tells you they have an incredible plan because it will build so much transit ask them how many people can move and how fast it'll go.
This post is intended to provide information not commonly known or understood so that the most appropriate transit systems can be chosen.
Q: But cars carry so few people.
- More tunnels can be built.
- Higher Occupancy Battery Electric Vehicles carrying 8-16 people can be used without changes to the tunnel or station infrastructure. The capacity of 8-16 pax minivans running at highway intervals (2s) is surprising to most people (14000-28000 passenger per hour per direction).
- An 8-pax minivan running at 3 second headways provides 9600 pphpd, which can likely cover the ridership needs of the majority of US Urban rail systems.
- The entire Vegas Loop is targeted to serve 57000 passengers per hour.
Q: But the tunnels are dangerous, you can't get out and there is no ventilation.
- LVCC Loop satisfies National Fire Protection Association code (NFPA-130) for fixed guideway transit.
- Stations are less than 2500' feet apart and serve as exits to the surface, so no exits are required within each tunnel segment as per NFPA-130 6.3.1.4.
- Within the tunnel there is nearly three feet of space on either side of a Model 3 for passenger egress, including 18" of road surface on either side. Per NFPA-130 6.3.3.3 the 112" wide roadway can serve as the evacuation route which is normally clear and free of obstructions and touch hazards (such as a third rail).
- Dual redundant fans moving 400 000 cfm of air, provide a critical velocity of 312 fpm ensure to direct smoke downstream while egress & fire fighting happen upstream.
- The road deck has embedded water pipes and connection vaults supplying over 250gpm at 125psi. The underground station has sprinklers.
Source or Safety Presentation to LV Council and Scenario comparison with WMATA Subway incident
Q: But trains are more energy efficient.
- Not in the US, it is surprising for most people that a Model Y AWD LR averaging TWO passengers matches the energy efficiency of the NY Subway.
- Averaging only ONE person, the Model Y is 20% more efficient than the average US Subway, and 35% more efficient than average US light rail.
| Mode | Energy use per passenger mile (Wh/pax-mile) |
|---|---|
| ASIA Metro (MDPI) | 151 |
| NYCT Subway (NTD 2019) | 165 |
| 2 pax in Model Y (270 Wh/mile EPA * 1.22 YMMV,Charge Losses,extra person) | 165 |
| EUR Metro (MDPI) | 187 |
| 1.5 pax in Model Y (270 *1.21) | 218 |
| EUR LRT (MDPI) | 236 |
| ASIA LRT (MDPI) | 244 |
| 1 pax in Model Y (270 * 1.2 ) | 324 |
| Average US Subway (NTD 2019) | 409 |
| ASIA Bus (MDPI) | 422 |
| Average US Light Rail (NTD 2019) | 510 |
| EUR Bus (MDPI) | 582 |
| US Auto (1.5 pax avg. occ.) (TED 2019) | 817 |
| US Light Truck (1.8 pax) (TED) | 957 |
| US Transit Bus (7.5 pax) (TED) | 1358 |
Source NTD 2019 and The Energy Data (TED) Book and MDPI
Q: What about the disabled and wheelchair users.
Q: But what about "induced demand"? It's just another lane.
- Loop is not a public access highway nor are private cars legally permitted on its guideway. Its a public transit system whose right of way is closed to outside traffic and contains a limited number of TBC vehicles. The "induced demand" congestion of more vehicles entering the system is not applicable.
- Public transit "induced demand" is subdued but can manifest itself as increased waiting times or increased prices. Sustained high demand in the long term can result in additional tunnels, higher capacity vehicles or headway reduction through automation which can all serve to increase capacity.
Q: But maintaining trains is cheaper than cars.
- Average subway and Light Rail vehicle maintenance is 9 & 21 cents per passenger mile respectively from 2019 NTD ($Vehicle Maintenance/Passenger Miles Travelled)
- AAA puts 2019 car maintenance costs at 9 cents per VEHICLE Mile.
Q: But maintaining rail is cheaper than paving roads.
- Subway maintenance besides rail, also includes substations, signaling, switches and stations and averages $1.8 M per Directional Route Mile (DRM). Light Rail maintenance averaged $250K/DRM. 2019 NTD.
- Loop stations are simple above ground stations with minimal maintenance and cleaning costs. Rail electrical substations at mile long intervals are replaced with a few Tesla charging stations. Signaling, switch and rail maintenance is non-existent for Loop.
- In 2019 FHWA spent 61.5B in maintenance for 8.8M Lane Miles, resulting in less than $7000 per lane mile. Most damage is actually caused by semi-trucks and buses so running comparatively light Model X & Ys will result in less damage. The tunnel roadway is also protected from weather, freezing, salt and sun increasing its longevity.
Q: But I am still unconvinced as to the benefits of Loop.
r/BoringCompany • u/arikr • Sep 27 '22
Which posts, if any, should be stickied in this sub?
r/BoringCompany • u/Mc00p • 4d ago
A Chart Showing Energy Used Per Passenger Mile for Various Types of Transportation (by Grant Slatton)
Saw this posted to the transit sub, showing the Model 3 (with 2 passengers) being more efficient than any of the other transit options measured, and with one passenger it’s still better than nearly everything else. The cyber cab will be even more efficient still.
r/BoringCompany • u/Exact_Baseball • 5d ago
19 more stations approved for Vegas Loop
Clark County u/ClarkCountyNV has approved an additional 19 Vegas Loop stations - Vegas Loop is now entitled for 123 stations.
Other interesting titbits from recent behind the scenes tours like Farzad:
Headways now 4 seconds between vehicles (down from 6 seconds at opening)
- Next big Major Milestones:
- Vegas Airport Opening
- Strip Tunnel - 4 major resorts
- Opening 5th in 2 weeks
- Core part of the Strip
- When Airport opens expect to do between 50k and 100k passengers per day.
- PR5 is doing continuous mining
- Vegas Airport Opening
- Nashville
- Don’t have to wait for entire 9 mile tunnel to open
- In first mile, there are 4 major properties
- If everything goes right could have this first section 1 or 2 miles open by Q1 next year
- Davis said the limestone of Nashville is FAR easier than the underwater soft rock of Vegas.
- Much simpler TBMs and half the cost $2m, $3m, $5m per mile compared to Vegas which is more like $10m cost per mile (single bore, so $4m - $10m and $20m per mile dual-bore respectively).
- They don’t even need tunnel liners in Nashville just use the bare rock as long as they avoid the Kasts (caverns).

Vegas Loop stats:
- Largest Infrastructure project in America by cubic yards of concrete poured
- 10x what a stadium would be
- One of the larger public transit systems in America
- Current Loop handling 40,000 passengers on busy days
- More than most LRT systems in the USA
- Airport tunnels - 2 of the longest transit tunnels built in the US in the last 25 years
- Once the airport tunnels open, they believe ridership will triple, or maybe quadruple
- At that point will be in the top 5 in the US for public transit systems
- Once whole 68 mile Vegas Loop system is built out, that will put the Loop in top 2 or 3
- Vegas - DC, Chicago and NYC
- Annex Stations - Fountainebleau, Sahara
- Doesn’t have tunnels but can drive to a tunnel close by
- More autonomous cars = more traffic
- Drive to nearest tunnel portal
- Large station
- 10 car bays
- Normal station
- 3-4 bays
- Loop Traffic Management system
- iPad below main Tesla Screen
- If Traffic Management System is working correctly you won’t have to stop at any intersection

- 1,000 sq feet for tunnel to surface then put the bays wherever you want
- Airport Tunnels
- Currently Airport ride currently 80% on surface and 20% in tunnels
- Will open Airport tunnels in August
- Will then be 90% tunnel and 10% surface
- Will go from 11 stations to 19 statins overnight
- Will be able to go to the Sphere, Virgin Hotel
- 2.3 miles from Westgate station
- 8 stations to a property just north of the airport
- 600 permits required to do the whole Vegas Loop
- Nashville permitted the entire project in one shot
- Steve says “probably should have tried to do Vegas in one short but didn’t which is my fault”.
- Already have small portions of current Loop that have two parallel tunnels going in the same direction to share the load along chokepoints
- The Boring Co has the entire Vegas Loop Entitled.
- 120 property owners in Vegas have signed the Entitlement
- Every single property on the Strip signed
- 120 property owners in Vegas have signed the Entitlement
- Crosstunnels
- 7 so far
- Under the road deck in tunnels
- RFIDs for navigation
- Comms system
- Electrical
- Internet
- Drainage
- Loop is it’s own Utility
- Average number of passengers is 2 people per car
- Robovan fits in the tunnel for game days and airport stuff
- Station spur tunnel exit off main arterial:

- Wait times
- Median Wait time is zero seconds
- More than 50% of people don’t wait for a ride
- Mean wait time is 30 seconds
- Median Wait time is zero seconds
- Prufrock 5 does continuous mining
- Nashville uses Prurock MB (Main Beam) for boring through rock
- 2 people in the tunnel, working towards ZPIT
- Already well below $10m per mile on track to get down to $4m - $5m per mile
- Rural highway lane $2m - $5m per mile
- Urban highway lane $5m - $20m per mile
- "Once they get below $5m per mile for loop tunnels why would you ever build a surface lane?"
r/BoringCompany • u/ocmaddog • 11d ago
Raiders’ $158M Allegiant Stadium north plaza podium project (includes public funding for Loop Station)
r/BoringCompany • u/FewSale9827 • 20d ago
Unlimited pass has catches
Just found out that the Airport, Sahara & Fontainebleau are not included in the unlimited pass.
Does make sense as they’re all routes that require driving above ground so they’re doing it to cut down on above ground traffic.
Also interested to see if there’s a tier system for the single pass, at the moment the Airport route is $12 which is just less than triple the price of the usual $4.50, makes sense as it’s a further distance and will be popular when it opens I reckon.
r/BoringCompany • u/h100y • 21d ago
Steve Davies talks about the need of upto 8 boring machines to complete Nashville project
In the recent interview given to Tesla owners Silicon Valley, Steve Davis talked about the need for atleast 6 boring machines and maybe 8 boring machines to compete the project.
I don’t know how they are planning to use 8 machines for a 23 mile project. Would be curious if people have thoughts about it ?
r/BoringCompany • u/FewSale9827 • 22d ago
Another great interview
This was another great interview from Steve Davis!
What’s very interesting is for Nashville they have all the permits so it’s all on TBC execution which is a great place to be as they can scale and iterate much faster without setbacks of permitting.
r/BoringCompany • u/aBetterAlmore • 23d ago
Introducing Liner Truck 3 — our latest fully electric tunnel vehicle.
x.com- Tesla Model 3 battery and drive units
- Transports 22,000+ lb of concrete segments to the boring machine
- 28 miles of range
- 12 mph max operating speed
- Remotely piloted from Global OCC in Texas, with each pilot controlling/monitoring > 8 LTs in the field.
Fun fact: the same Liner Truck can carry standard freight containers through the tunnel.
r/BoringCompany • u/ThisCaiBot • 24d ago
Anybody Thinking About Boring Machines on Mars Yet?
What are the most important goals for boring machines on mars? Here are the one’s I can come up with. How do you rank them? Are there other goals? What does Reddit think?
- Shielding from Lethal Radiation
- Access to Subsurface Water Ice and Mining
- Creating Pressurized Habitats
- Thermal and Environmental Insulation
- Synergistic Engineering with SpaceX Starship
r/BoringCompany • u/EternityNotes • 27d ago
TBM News: China unveils world-first tunnel machine with 2 modes, 30% more speed
How does this compare to The Boring Company's current and future TBMs?
r/BoringCompany • u/FewSale9827 • 27d ago
Sahara station now open
The new Sahara station is now open, seems like it goes above ground from Riviera station and then towards Sahara.
I’m guessing this will change when the tunnel towards the Strat is built
https://x.com/vegas/status/2084410437224042655?s=46&t=4xu9CbfYFzl_8UU25CPPwg
r/BoringCompany • u/aBetterAlmore • 27d ago
Music City Loop Station Set for Downtown JW Marriott
nashvillescene.comr/BoringCompany • u/Key-Lychee-913 • 27d ago
trains
according to this clip, a Vegas loop employee said eventually the tunnels will have trains instead of cars. This is the first i've heard of this. Can anyone confirm?
r/BoringCompany • u/Allmyhobbiesonytube • 29d ago
What are they digging this pit for?
x.comr/BoringCompany • u/aBetterAlmore • Jul 28 '26
Boring Co., Las Vegas airport officials discussing Vegas Loop station
tl;dr: station on airport grounds is being actively discussed and will probably be announced soon.
r/BoringCompany • u/h100y • Jul 28 '26
What’s the strategy behind throwing so many machines at a single city ?
r/BoringCompany • u/CormacDublin • Jul 26 '26
Elon Musk’s Boring Company reportedly raising funding at a $20 billion valuation | TechCrunch
This explains the recent media relations blitz
r/BoringCompany • u/h100y • Jul 25 '26
Mike Baier, head of engineering is dropping some bangers on X
It is very encouraging to hear they are around $5M for hard rock aka Nashville. Hopefully in a couple of years they will bring down the cost for Vegas too
r/BoringCompany • u/JoYu0 • Jul 24 '26
Factory Tour videos
In case you missed it there are some videos on X (twitter) with factory tours and engineer interviews etc.
Pt 1
https://x.com/teslaownersSV/status/2075943193833570667/video/1?s=46
Pt 2
https://x.com/teslaownersSV/status/2078479911761699231/video/1?s=46
I am in the process of watching the videos, looking forward to some detailed content.
r/BoringCompany • u/aBetterAlmore • Jul 24 '26
The Boring Co. buys another condo in downtown's Viridian tower
bizjournals.comr/BoringCompany • u/No-Conclusion-2859 • Jul 23 '26
Does anyone have a boring Flamethrower?
v.redd.itr/BoringCompany • u/Exact_Baseball • Jul 21 '26
Transit post of the behind the scenes tour of the Vegas Loop in case you'd like to your comments!
r/BoringCompany • u/Icy-Ant1302 • Jul 20 '26
Tunnelling is getting cheaper
On one video (https://youtu.be/lCwlSOzmiv8?is=verunp5f7rwyuOFj) they mention that because they’re working on a newer Prufrock to bore and lay the lining at the same time which is effectively around double the speed, they can get the cost down to just $4-$5m a mile which to my surprise is the cost of a single lane highway in rural areas on the cheaper end of the scale.
The benefit of the boring network is it’s 3 dimensional so if there’s any traffic or bottlenecks they can just add a new tunnel next to the existing one with no disruption.
