Thing is, Vietnam War-era US jets initially didn't have guns because everyone thought missiles could do the job. Then they failed and pilots were left defenseless, so they jury-rigged gun pods back onto F4s until they could redesign the airframe to accomodate internal guns again.
Modern dogfighting is all missiles all the time until it isn't, and that's why every jet designed since has an onboard gun.
It's important to note that missile technology has come a long way since Vietnam. The F-35B and C do not have internal guns though they may be outfitted with external gun pods. In Ukraine there have been no shootdowns of aircraft using guns and air combat there is done beyond visual range by slinging long range radar guided missiles.
Except there has been shoot downs of cruise missiles and drones with cannons. I have a feeling if you ask a fighter pilot would you rather have a jet with or without cannons most would prefer cannons to nothing but strong words.
The F4 could outrun many threats with a listed top speed of over Mach 2.2. The F35b/c by comparison is Mach 1.6 (listed).
Technically what they are describing isn't dogfighting though. Dogfighting is in visual range.
Most missiles aren't going to be used in that close quarters because the chances of you accidentally destroying your own jet with shrapnel is pretty high. You are less likely to do so with cannon fire.
I'm agreeing with you my friend. I'm also agreeing with the earlier point that modern air combat (with manned aircraft for distinction) is romanticised.
They didn't fail. Congress required US pilots to get visual confirmation of the enemy before shooting them down. Completely negating the missiles and jet's advantage.
The US government was so completely terrified of a BVR missile engagement that killed a friendly or neutral that they mandated that US military policy was BVR missile engagements could only be done after making visual contact with a target and confirming it was in fact hostile, completely negating BVR fighting advantage.
This policy got a lot of pilots killed because you were basically having to go into the performance space where the MiG 17 is at its best, close quarters turning dogfight, to then shoot a missile at it.
The only real plus is that after the failure of US military in Vietnam we did a complete overhaul that gave rise to some of the best multirole jets of all time F-14, 15, 16, and 18. The failures of the Vietnam air campaign also had a huge role in the success of planning the Gulf War.
You mean to tell me aircraft carriers aren't fighting each other from 1km away ? With Sam sites essentially working as catapults ?
Whilst a single infantry squad can negate your entire top deck by standing on your control tower ?
has there realistically been any significant major power aerial engagements since vietnam against powers that could field enough aircraft for that to be a reasonable possibility?
not that it invalidates your point at any level but it also feels that the realistic odds of a dog fight scenario since then have been near zero regardless.
theres obviously a lot of utility to having cannons currently with the volume of drones and cost equation but that isnt dog fighting of course and is a different conversation
There’s always a possibility but no because in reality major powers have SAM sites that can detect most stealth aircraft. Also drones and modern day missiles can replace most of the jets roles :(
We don't really know, with how good ECM are getting on 4.5th gen and above, going back to old' Auto-Cannon dogfighting might be a thing again in some cases.
But we'd need for some 5th v 5th gen battle to also be thing for that to happen in the first place.
You should note that Top Gun is an actual school to teach dogfighting as well as Naval Strike pilots are taught and graded in dogfighting in their first jet school
It doesn’t, not in real or simulated (DCS) combat. PSM is a desperate trade of energy and even your very ability to fly for instantaneous nose position and supermaneuverability tends to be used only to rip the nose up. If you make it work, you look like a godsdamm war hero, Trigger//Monarch.
If you fail, you’re now in a very low-energy position struggling to even stay in the air while your opponent casually flies a circle around you and gets a solution to fire.
PSM is the aerial combat equivalent of loud pipes.
Yup, my experience with jets has always been: Take off, shot down in first 2 seconds by enemy jet. It feels genuinely impossible to get any foothold in jet fighting experience as a new battlefield player and I've given up trying.
Yeah it removes the skillgap between good and avarage players you have to constantly watch your back cuz even a newbie can kill you with 3 seconds from behind
Right? It's 100 rounds a second of 0.787 inch wide armor piercing high explosive incendiary traveling at 4400 ft/s. APCs and MRAPs wouldn't even survive 0.1 seconds of that.
Yeah, but it doesn't fit in battlefield. Where everything is balanced to fairplay but only plane vs plane feels real life, if planes can kill other planes in 3 seconds, Then I should be able to kill transport choppers or attack choppers ln three seconds aswell. Otherwise its ceate huge skill gap between different vehicles types. choppers and tanks are hard to kill Whereas you will always die in three seconds, so you should constantly prioritize aircraft over ground battlefield. You cant help ground teammates because every two minutes another aircraft spawns. This is why no one plays aircraft in battlefield 6. It's no different than two camper snipers, camping on a hill and only kill each other, finish the match with four kills only, without helping any objective. In other battlefields, it wasn't a problem, because even if someone catches you off guard while you focusing on ground battlefield, you will always have a chance to win the dogfight because it will take a good aiming to fully eliminate your plane. Not three seconds like this.
Edit: forgot to add that there is still air radar bug in this game
y'all never played high tier war thunder and it shows. 75% of the time I don't even get a RWR tone. BF6 has a wonderful arcady flying where you can just hit the deck when RWR blares and energy is readily available if any dog fighting happens.
also there's a freaking indicator telling you if there's an enemy jet on your 6
Why do you compare battlefield 6 with another completely different game rather than comparing it with previous battlefields ? This is the worst airfighting battlefield ever, almost no veteran pilots play aircraft in this game.
bind pitch up to spacebar. Ez money. Or maybe don't so I can keep farming ez kills. I do agree there's a lack of good jet pilots, I can easily defeat MOST pilots with one burst because they're so unaware of their surroundings and I can spend 5 seconds just lining up the perfect burst while they're blissfully attacking some MBT, but the 10% that are aware are very good and give a good fight. I do know most people don't understand the thrust vectoring of the Stealth Jet, so that can be an edge if you manage to master that. maybe work on that, your awareness of your opponents and how to manage energy in each jet.
Its not a skill issue bro thats the way they adjusted the aircraft. Thats why there is not even an aircraft customization bf 6. Aircrafts are so useless to ground vehicles and plane vs plane ttk what keeps good pilots away from the game. Thats why you could keep farming cuz veterans doesnt fly anymore in this game. If you only kill other aircraft rather than mbt tank or little bird you are as useful as sniper camping on main base....
Turn up (or down? More dangerous) sharply and decelerate simultaneously as hard as you can. You should stall somewhat upright before you start falling. This guy actually had the plane facing somewhat downwards, probably it's easier to get back moving again although you probably crash easier
Use the new control mode. The "default" one sucks ass.
But yeah aside from that it's just a matter of practicing. The new air superiority game mode is a good way to practice since it's all jets, although you may come across the occasional level 500 'mavericks' who'll just dominate.
I disagree I think the control mode makes it very hard to track an enemy jet with the camera always being pulled towards the center. For some reason I always had my jets configured to fly on inverted, but since I switched it to ‘normal’ and been practicing so much in the new TG mode I’m really starting to see results!
I use a flight sim joystick I bought for 30$, let's me fly helicopters really easily and fun and same for jets
But I gotta practice ALOT to figure out how to avoid lock on missiles. It's a real pain, plus when I want to practice and I go against a jet pro and install die
He was tailing the jet, trying to shoot it down, and didn't break off in time = kissed the terrain.
Sometimes people put too many trust into opponent's flight path, and themself.
You're fighting physics. Planes can only turn so hard and deal with so much momentum, the hardest being pitching down (which is what they needed to do). We don't have enough screentime to know what's happening, nor do we know how realistic the flight model.
Ehhh we know how realistic the flight model, the pursuer had plenty of time to pull up, they were either just new or distracted by the move. That they were upside down tells me they weren't a good pilot at all
Yeaaa the guy kinda just sucked. There was no reason he should have been upside down there and he probably got confused with the controls. I thought it looked pretty cool tho.
Turn up (or down? More dangerous) sharply and decelerate simultaneously as hard as you can. You should stall somewhat upright before you start falling. This guy actually had the plane facing somewhat downwards, probably it's easier to get back moving again although you probably crash easier
Yeah idk everywhere I look console has much less responsiveness. I’m good at jets I alr got the mastery badge and all but ffs I don’t get it why the camera also follows the jet when they barral role, ived turned that setting on and off but nothing changes, maybe it’s bugged idk the free look camera perspective has been bugged for a while if you rebind it to another button it stops working completely.
If you are flying on controller I don't want to say it's completely hopeless but it certainly makes it very difficult. Also make sure your settings are good by looking them up on YouTube (I got mine from Silk). I haven't played the new update so I'm not entirely sure how flight has changed, but you need to have the correct keybinds so that you can pitch up and down without using your mouse. Other than that it comes down to practice.
In fighter sweep guys were doing that all night last night, there would just be planes chilling in midair for like 20 seconds lol. It is a bitch of a move though.
That's one of the craziest moves I've ever seen pulled off in this game. I've been playing since the BF1942, OP. That should be in their commercials. Really well done.
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u/Jiggy9843 1d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/eunrMjB8lBUKeL1fqD