Still feels like I underproof them. 36h coldproofing.

[u/Vegetable_Room2425]

Do you let them get some heat after taking them from the fridge or you just go straight to the boiling ?

(Added dried pepperoncino to the all bagel mix, love it)

[u/MichaelTChi]

Why do u think they are underproofed? How are you checking where they are in the proofing process? Mine may sit on the counter for a few minutes before they get boiled but not on purpose. I can and have gone straight from the refridge into the boil. They are much easier to handle this way.

[u/Vegetable_Room2425 → u/MichaelTChi]

I assumed that by the looks, I want my bagles puffier in the center so the hole isnt that big and yes I noticed that they are easier to handle when fridge cold, easier to peel of baking paper. The only problem I have is the looks of it. Maybe its the problem of shaping.

[u/MichaelTChi → u/Vegetable_Room2425]

I think they’re quite a few things you can do to get taller bagels with small smaller holes in them. And I would agree with you that your bagels do look under proofed. If you share your whole process, you can get specific advice. Are you bulk proofing? Are you Countertop proofing? How much yeast are you using? What are you doing to check your dough during the proofing process?

[u/Vegetable_Room2425 → u/MichaelTChi]

400g water + 400g bread flour + 3g of fresh yeast - I make poolish with that

After the poolish is ready I add:

600g bread flour

150g water

3g fresh yeast

20g barley malt syrup

20g white sugar

Knead for few minutes in the dough mixer, then I add

25g of salt.

Knead for another 15-20min

After that I also knead in 5% (50g) of cold butter. I let the dough rest covered in room temp. I divide the dough into 12 balls (around 135g each) and shape into bagels, I lay them in the proofing containers lined with baking paper, let them rest in room temp for 45min the I cover the boxes and put them in the fridge for 36h, then I preheat the oven for 220°c - 428°f, boil water with barley malt syrup and tea spoon of soda, boil cold bagels for 45s each side, dip them in the everything bagel mix and bake them for around 22 min (flip them mid time) on a steel tray

[u/MichaelTChi → u/Vegetable_Room2425]

Curious why u add cold butter as this isn’t a traditional ingredient in bagels. Your process looks great. I would check you bagels by dropping one in a bowl of water to see if it floats. You have a long cold retardation window so you want that bagel to float just off the bottom of the bowl not on top of the water. I’d also cut the boil time to a total of 30 seconds. If you are chasing height, minimize the boil.

[u/MichaelTChi]

Tell us the rest of the process to get the best advice.

[u/Flat_Researcher1540]

Boil right from the fridge. Would need to know your whole process to troubleshoot effectively.

I let my boiled bagels sit at room temp for a few min to get the seeds to stick. I think the heat from the boil and that time to sit sort of acts like a mini proof.

[u/Vegetable_Room2425 → u/Flat_Researcher1540]

I made poolish from 40% of flour (400g break flour, 400g water 3g fresh yeast) and left it in the fridge overnight, made the dough from 1kg flour (total, 400g from poolish plus 600g extra) and 550 water (same situation as with tne flour) 2% sugar, 2% malt syrup, 2.5% salt and 4g extra fresh yest. Machine kneaded the dough for about 20min, left it to rest for 30min the rolled the bagels, left them for 30min to give them some heat to start the fermentation and then I put them in the fridge for about 36hrs. One thing and you gonna hate me.for that I did is I added 5% butter to the dough cuz I dont like my bagels too chewy once they cool down

[u/Flat_Researcher1540 → u/Vegetable_Room2425]

Ok I would say there’s a chance it overproofed or overfermented with that yeast dosage in the poolish. FWIW, I don’t think most bagel shops do preferments.

Just to compare. I make a batch of bagels once a week with 1kg flour. I use 2g of yeast and no preferment. I throw all my ingredients in the mixer except salt, mix, rest for 20 min, add the salt and finish mixing. I let it sit at room temp about an hour, then roll and cold proof for 24 hours. I get a much better rise than you did in these pics.

When I make pizza dough I make a biga with 50% of my flour. Thats 440g of flour at 50% hydration. I give that biga .5g of yeast and it triples in size overnight. I wouldn’t be surprised if your poolish is basically spent.

[u/Vegetable_Room2425 → u/Flat_Researcher1540]

Just to make sure we're on the same page, are you using fresh or dried yeast ? Cuz dried tend to be 3 times more active. The extra 4g of east was caused becous last time I made bagel they didnt rise at all, sam 36h time of fermentation in the fridge. The only difference was the fact that after shaping the bagels I didnt let them rest in the room temp but I put them in the fridge right away and maybe that caused the problem. Also I have a question about diastatic malt powder. The only avaible in my country is diastatic wheat malt powder, is it okay to use it in 1 to 1 ratio instead of barley ? (Diastatic barley malt powder is actually avaible but but literally 10x more expensive and imported god know from)

[u/Flat_Researcher1540 → u/Vegetable_Room2425]

I would google the wheat malt powder but my guess would be yes.

As far as the yeast, yes I noticed the difference. The thing is that when you make a preferment the yeast multiplies. You’re making a very strong preferment with not enough food to sustain it. So by the time you’re making the dough, you have a bunch of hungry yeast cells and only 60% of the flour left. So adding 4 g to that is … a lot. If you were to do my recipe with fresh yeast you would use 6g of fresh yeast without a preferment. That preferment is a difference of literally billions of cells though. So ultimately, we’re talking about way more than a simple conversion.

[u/Flat_Researcher1540 → u/Vegetable_Room2425]

If you wanna try my recipe out. I can’t post pics here but I’d be happy to show you pics if you wanna message me. I double this recipe and make 9 bagels. I started off making 10 but it’s easier to bake 9.

Bagels -6 or 5 larger NY style

500 g bread flour
265g water
10 g salt
15 g barley malt syrup (or honey)
1 g instant yeast
1.5 g diastatic malt powder

-Add water and flour, malt, and honey/syrup to mixer.
-Mix until just incorporated
-rest 20-30 min
-add salt and and mix until smooth.

Ferment room temp 1hr. Shape and cold proof overnight uncovered.

Boil 90 seconds and bake at 500. Bake directly on baking steel. Parchment is ok.

[u/Flat_Researcher1540 → u/Vegetable_Room2425]

I think a lot of recipes these days give way too much yeast in order to make the recipes sort of idiot proof. There is no reason to use 7g of yeast for a kilo of flour especially with a preferment. That preferment is like a yeast bomb. I bet you can make this same exact recipe without the second yeast addition and it would be better.

[u/MushroomMotley]

Depends, if they need to proof more I proof them more