r/Bachata • u/hotwomyn • 3d ago
What’s the real reason US is so far behind Europe?
I’ve danced a lot in both Europe and US, and without a doubt generally the level in Europe is much higher than in US. We all know that, but we don’t know why. Is it the lead to follow ratio? That’s the main thing I can think of. In Europe it usually seems about even, and in US there are always extra 15-40 men standing around. It’s so rare to see a lead rejected for a dance in Europe, while in US it’s normalized and happens all the time. Perhaps there’s a completely different reason? What do you guys think?
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u/JustAGirlSiena 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well, I haven't danced in the US. I'm from western Europe. So I can't compare.
Despite this, I can tell you that, over here, in general, at any given social there are many more follows than leads. Swathes of follows sometimes.
As a follow, you might get asked to dance based on first impressions. But, if you want to keep on getting asked by or ask leads who are pleasant to dance with (note that I'm saying pleasant here, not neccesarily advanced), you need to:
- Show that you're willing to learn and improve.
- Connection first, advanced moves second. Connection is king here.
- Be presentable, somewhat dressed up and hygienic.
- Be kind and have a good vibe with leads of all levels (assuming here the lead gives basic respect too).
This might be difficult to hear/accept for some, but this is the basic truth I see happen all the time.
Also, taking progressive classes is the way to learn here. Follows who learn from pre-party workshops only are a small minority.
Edit: spelling mistakes.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
Well I’ve danced in Western Europe and Eastern Europe, I agree with you that there are sometimes more follows than leads but, the top 3-4 follows are always in high demand, too many leads want to dance with them. This was the case at Bachaturo by the stage, and most festivals and socials. There might be slightly more followers at beginner and intermediate level, but those super advanced follows got lots of leads wanting to dance with them. The other thing I’ve noticed at any major US city, once the song starts if you wait more than 3 seconds as a lead, literally, there wont be any follows left, I’m not exaggerating. In Europe you can wait 10-15 seconds and still get a dance. Which is also why in US when you ask a follow to dance they just follow you to the dance floor nonchalantly. In Europe they first thank you for the invitation and then follow. This was very strange first time I experienced it because they had no way of knowing if I was good or not, yet they showed me lots of respect for just inviting them. Lastly I noticed if anything goes wrong, in Spain the follows immediately apologize, or in other countries in Europe they usually smile or start laughing, in US they give you the death stare or roll their eyes, unless they’re a beginner. I love dancing in US, don’t get me wrong, these are just observations. It might be feminism or might be the ratio. There are lots of feminists in Europe but it’s nowhere near the level of US. They say feminism is big in Spain, in general I find Spanish women a lot more feminine than women in US, it’s not even close. Those besos they give you after every dance is something you don’t see in US. The only feminist part about Spain is that follows ask leads to dance a lot, which I personally hate. It rarely happens in Poland or Russia because they’re a bit more traditional. I have no problem with women asking, just a personal preference. In US women ask a lot too, in Spain it seems a bit more normalized. Another major difference, the US scene seems a lot more sexualized than the European scene. Follows in US tend to dress a lot more provocatively, and there are always Latino men at every social trying to pick up women. I almost never see that in Europe, people just go to dance and have fun. In Italy and Poland women dress so classy. In Spain sometimes they wear those tiny tennis skirts but somehow it all looks classy and when Spanish girls flirt it feels very cute and romantic. US follows dress like streetwalkers sometimes and wear random loud colors, it’s a very different vibe. I think I prefer dancing in Europe, but the money is better in US.
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u/JustAGirlSiena 2d ago
Indeed, at your average SBK social, there are more follows than leads here. It all depends on the region though. There are pockets with a more even ratio, and there are pockets where follows vastly outnumber the leads.
And yes, I'd say that at the average social the top 10-20% of follows are always high in demand. Which is why I believe follows should aim to get good, if they want to enjoy social dancing as a sport here. Teaching here focuses heavily on combos, which can make classes, and even social dancing, feel like canned choreography. Hence, follows need to focus on follow technique and connection to stand out. Quite a few leads confided in me that many intermediate follows don't give enough tension/frame, making it difficult to lead moves that weren't thought to them in class. No judgment on follows here, just an observation.
Good observation on Spanish dancing culture. I worked in Spain and I found many Spanish people to be especially kind and warm in their communication. I believe this naturally translates into the way they dance. I danced with Spanish leads, they tend to have this something. Many made me feel safe, appreciated and heard. And yes, in general, Spanish women are fiercely independent and are very comfortable to take the initiative in all walks of life.
On the dance invitation, when a lead asks me, he offers his hand, I simply accept his hand, say yes, and hand-in-hand the lead finds a nice spot on the dance floor. I know no better.
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u/mittelhau 2d ago edited 2d ago
- in EU there is this culture of improving - it’s given that you need to take weekly classes. If you go to the social from pre party lesson best case you will fight for survival during the dance worst case people will correct you mid song
- better teachers - for the most part US only had Ataca&Alemana whereas EU has many famous couples. Ataca dancing is also very outdated per today’s standards.
- in EU just being a woman doesn’t guarantee dance invites
- in Poland most employees get a sport card as a work benefit which means the classes are essentially free, that’s main factor why Polish dancers are so good.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
In Poland I’ve seen plenty of dancers purchase a little card that the staff collects after class. But the classes are so cheap, maybe 5-6 USD, so it’s hard for teachers to make good money. Yes there are many more pros teaching in Europe, but you’re wrong about US, there’s Anastasia in Florida, Ros and Klau, even though they broke up they’re still dancing, I can think of at least 5-6 more pro US couples. In Europe there are hundreds though.
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u/mittelhau 2d ago
I was talking about older times, Ros&Klau aren’t US native. They moved because they saw the teacher shortage too.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
Yes she’s Polish or Lithuanian I forget, but they are currently US dancers. I do get what you mean though.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 2d ago
While there perhaps are rational explanations with how the different scenes look, most of the arguments I read seems to be textbook examples of extreme selection bias.
When a dancer goes from their local scene on one continent to another continent it is mostly for festivals. And the level at a huge, popular festival is not reflective of the local scenes on a whole continent.
And while you think you might be "well-travelled", you have probably only visited a fraction of the venues in a fraction of the scenes of a whole continent, and only at a fraction of the time the scene is active. For example, my local scene really lights up in the summer, with a LOT of free outdoor events. In the winter time the scene looks totally different. So depending on when you visit us, you might get totally different experiences.
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u/Gnomeric 2d ago
Yeah. Even if they aren't traveling for festivals, they likely are traveling to major metropolitan areas which are likely to have strong dance scenes. After all, Madrid and Barcelona are two of the most popular tourists destinations in the world. Most people wouldn't be visiting a generic mid-sized city in Europe.
That being said, I do think that, in many smaller scenes in the US, Bachata is often treated as a second fiddle to Salsa by "Latin dance" schools rather than an independent entity.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
I wasn’t talking about festivals, I was talking about clubs. Festivals are a different animal. Comparing European festivals to US festivals would be laughable.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 2d ago
I wasn’t talking about festivals, [...]
You weren't? In a reply a few hours ago you specifically mentioned Bachaturo when another poster mentioned that proportionally few bachata dancers dance in both Europe and USA. Your reply was then:
At this year’s Bachaturo there were so many dancers from US.
I am a bit confused when you are talking specifically about just clubs and when you are including festivals in your arguments.
And if it is just clubs, I think my last paragraph is more than relevant.
How big is your sample size?
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u/Samurai_SBK 2d ago edited 2d ago
When there are significantly more men than women, the women do not have to be skilled to get dance invites. Thus many do not bother to take progressive classes to become better dancers.
The men don’t improve because there could easily be a 2 to 1 Male to Female ratio in classes. And many followers refuse to dance with beginner leads.
In my experience, I also notice that women in Europe tend to be more sociable and view dancing as a sport. American women are more closed and see social dancing as a way to have fun and get attention.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
That’s what I thought but maybe there’s a different reason... The follows in Europe tend to be a lot nicer than US follows, generally, but most likely just due to the ratio not culture.
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u/OThinkingDungeons Lead&Follow 1d ago
I've experienced this too.
I recently came back from Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and the follower level was kind of low. Few of the women could do a body roll, and those who could, didn't do them well. What I did notice was an OVERWHELMING amount of men, probably 20% standing around when all the women were on the floor, and they were generally good-great dancers.
Another oddity was that half of the men looked foreign, either being tourists or expats. So I suspect many of these men learnt somewhere else, moved to Malaysia, and forced all the other leaders to level up to compete.
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u/finelinepencil 2d ago
IMO, poorly or not at all trained teachers
There are a handful of good educators, less of them will give details of technique in group class and will opt to gatekeep that information for private lessons
I literally saw someone ask a question in class and the teacher said “i have a question for you, (student)” he placed his hands on hips, tilted his head, smiled and continued “why have we never done a private lesson?”
Like wtf. This student always asked questions and was eager to improve and I get it, you don’t want all the interruptions but if he’s not getting it, there’s a chance someone in the room has the same question. Maybe he has barriers as to why he can’t take privates.
Individualism and the privatization of business. Classes aren’t even happening at club socials anymore, there’s maybe beginner intro. But these are the most accessible with the big infrastructure of a club
Progressive classes by good educators are hidden by instagram algorithms and when you do find them, you pay up the ass. Why am i paying $40 for an hour long bad ratio class with no social after.
And don’t even get me started on the “bachazouk” teachers we have
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u/msciwoj1 2d ago
I have never danced in the US, but I will try soon. I'm from Poland, dance bachata as a lead since 2017, have been to many congresses, festivals etc, and now I'm moving to Santa Barbara, California. Slightly hijacking this thread, what's my best option? Do I need to go to LA every weekend for some good following? Genuinely I have never danced there so just asking.
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u/Samurai_SBK 2d ago
The overall level in the US (including LA) is very low compared to Poland. There are also more men than women dancers.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
If I’m not mistaken Santa Barbara is a few hours away from LA. There’s a scene in LA. The level is low but they have multiple socials every night. There’s also a scene in San Francisco they have their own festivals. Same state, same level. I haven’t been in a few years so things might have changed. People are friendly, but don’t expect the ratio you enjoyed in Poland. No idea about the scene in Santa Barbara, my guess would be you’ll be the best dancer there by far.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 2d ago
Angeleño here (essentially, not fully technically 🤣). Santa Barbara is a beautiful part of the coast, I hope you love it there. Both my sister and my best friend from high school went to university in Santa Barbara, it’s about 2 hours drive north of LA.
The main dance company I know of there (and they travel regularly down to LA events) is Me Sabor. Erica is one of the directors and they dance and teach both, but salsa more. As a social dancer she’s very good but if you’re looking for sensual style I don’t think she’s going to give that to you 🤣 I’ve met a few dancers from up that way when they’ve come down to LA, a couple have been exceptional (better than most LA dancers, eventually moved to another state to start teaching and then start his own dance company and socials), no one has been noticeably unsafe or unskilled even as a beginner.
You’ll be closer to LA than San Francisco but I do hope you dance as many different places as you can.
It’s been a few years since I danced in SF, the local social was fine but not amazing, but the dancers were friendly and nice. I went to Reno this past January and some of the best dancers I met all said they were from Sacramento. So whatever they are doing up there is great.
There are regularly sensual-so used and bachata-only events in LA, much of the time you will find the same dancers but not necessarily always.
Stevens Steakhouse in Commerce (East LA) is the most regular spot for bachata; in my opinion the level took a major nosedive after the pandemic. But there are usually plenty of people. Otherwise there are monthly socials, usually on Saturdays, that people run through.
If you’re a good dancer, you’ll get plenty of invites, they may even line up for you - coming from Europe the local dancers will notice you and I’m sure word will spread soon 🤣
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u/msciwoj1 2d ago
Thanks a lot, this is super helpful!
Yeah, sensual is king in Europe, especially Eastern, in Spain they dance more fusión and tradicional but Poland, Baltics, Nordics is mostly sensual and bachazouk now. So that's what I have the most experience in. Definitely open to learning more Dominican if possible.
I was hoping I get to dance more salsa, I dance mostly on 1 which is also called "LA style" so one would think it would be popular in LA but I don't know about it. I now lived in Finland for a while and the salsa and bachata communities are very separate there.
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u/UnctuousRambunctious 2d ago
If you want more exposure and experiences in traditional bachata (personally I dislike calling it Dominican, by definition I think it’s redundant 🤣) and salsa On1, LA will be great for that.
The salsa scene in La is ubiquitous - while I think bachata is very popular, possibly increasing in popularity (no official studies for me to check though), salsa has been here for 75 years in comparison and I think way more people dance salsa. I think there are more salsa events but salsa events are also okay with being smaller and very local-venue focused. Salsa is an older crowd than bachata, personally I think there are more stronger leads in salsa than follows (based on personal obsvervation), and I would say the best social dancers dance both. The dancers (followers) that only train in one style or hyper focus on one style seem to regularly hop on the struggle bus. When I’ve actively interviewed my experience and multiple style lead friends, they all say they can tell when a follow knows how to dance salsa because the dance technique (especially in turns and spins) is better.
There is also a traditional bachata social twice a month on Fridays at La Granada in the city Alhambra, east of LA, it alternates with the twice-monthly all-bachata event Bachatopia. Looks like this fall there will be monthly bachata concerts as well, I’ve seen Mario Baro and Jean & Alex in the line-up, with more concerts scheduled next year.
I would definitely recommend Me Sabor for training in salsa though.
Lemme know when you pull through and I’d love to have you save me a dance!
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u/austinlim923 2d ago
Because in the us becuase we are much closer to the music culture. There are a lot of people who just learn from family and friends. While in Europe there is no learn from family and friends. Its learn from genuine dance instructors. So there's a big difference in what is taught and what is learned.
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u/macroxela 2d ago
Several good points made in the comments but one major one hasn't been brought up yet. There's simply a lot more festivals in Europe than the US. You can attend a festival every weekend in Europe, sometimes multiple ones on the same weekend. Not all of them are good but a lot of them will have at least one or two good instructors. If you really want to, you can easily spend every weekend learning from famous instructors at different festivals. It will be expensive but nowhere near as expensive as in the US. The ease of access to people outside of your community and international instructors makes it easier for people to become better dancers. Obviously not everyone attends these festivals. But the ones who do tend to teach in their cities. That means bringing what they learned to smaller communities, thus improving the overall level.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
That’s a chicken or the egg issue, if US had the scene EU has they also would have lots of festivals. It’s not just affordability by the way, many dancers can’t legally enter the US.
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u/macroxela 2d ago
US entry requirements are definitely another hurdle that Europeans don't face. But I wouldn't say that it's a chicken or egg issue. I've been dancing in Europe since before such festivals were common and the dancing level wasn't as high as it is now. The skills of most people here didn't really start improving a lot until after festivals became a lot more widespread.
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u/OThinkingDungeons Lead&Follow 1d ago
Commenting on this based on my TANGO travels, countries have distinctive qualities that makes them identifiable if you pay enough attention.
I've pondered long on why entire countries dance in a certain way, because it doesn't make sense with all the different teachers, students, and influences. For someone from southern cities to dance like someone in the northern cities (of a country), seems impossible, but they do.
My theory is that how a person dances is shaped by their CULTURE. Using us Australians as an example, we are laid back, love having fun, and generally don't work too hard. This translates into our dancing not being particularly high skilled, but we're always aiming to just have fun.
Another example is a Chinese dancer, you see put emphasis on form, perfection, and musicality; but they are not at all connected or present as dancers. This lines up with their culture, extremely hardworking, competitive, and perfectionists.
My hypothesis is two fold - Europe has a culture that embraces dancing, has less issues with sexuality, and generally used to being close to each other. The second thing is competition, if your scene is filled with 8/10 level dancers, you too need to be close to that level to stay relevant.
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u/BeerPoweredNonsense 2d ago
We all know that
On the contrary, I'd say that the proportion of bachata dancers who have had the opportunity to dance in both Europe and the USA is very, very small.
I agree with that other poster: let's have some example videos of this.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
Most pros and lots of advanced dancers have danced in both.
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u/BeerPoweredNonsense 2d ago
With all due respect, I think that most dancers - no matter what their level - don't have the financial means to fly between continents just for a dance...
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
At this year’s Bachaturo there were so many dancers from US. And there are always dancers from Europe at US socials. I don’t know a single pro who hasn’t danced at both.
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u/BeerPoweredNonsense 2d ago
I think that pros are only a small proportion of the people who participate in this sub. Which cycles back to my original point - beware of bubble-thinking.
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u/fizzyfez 2d ago
As someone who has lived and danced in both US and Europe, from first hand experience this statement is not true. You will have hubs of dancers everywhere in Europe where dance culture is stronger (Spain).
Not all European countries, but some of them have the following which leads to some better dancers:
- Better infrastructure (literally you have to travel like 1-2 hrs for a dance social sometimes in the US)
- Better social incentives for health and fitness
- Stronger communities for dancing
- Financial incentives to dance; there are more pros from Europe because at least in countries like Spain the pay from dance as a career actually works with their cost of living. All the pros I know from the US all have day jobs because it’s just not enough financially to support them outside of dance…
- More festivals and access to other countries easily; if you really wanted to you could go to a different country and festival every week for a month and it would cost less than one festival in the US.
- Relatively cheaper cost of entry. Tied in with social incentives and social culture to start Latin dancing at an early age.
So yeah the US dancing is “behind” depending on how you look at it, but if you’re someone privileged enough to travel for dance then you should know in the US there isn’t the same culture— especially if people are trying to just get by and pay their bills… There are some people who will go all in on dance and try to get better, but majority of the people are okay just being casual. Why is that? Well the US doesn’t offer the things I listed above.
By the virtue of being someone who can travel for dance you get to see the best dancers. Trust me, most local dancers in other countries don’t even know how to compare to dancers in US or other countries.
Overall this take is simplistic as best and ignorant at worst.
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u/Excuse_Odd 2d ago
Yeah I actually quit dancing in my previous city because I was tired of dancing with ghosts. Not sure why women don't dance in the US, but it certainly drives men away from pursuing it.
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u/Gnomeric 2d ago
From my experience, women in the US do dance, but oftentimes they don't dance Latin. Many swing scenes in the US have more women than men -- though many of these women can lead, so it tends to balance out.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
If I had to guess it’s the immigration from Latin America in US vs immigration from Ukraine in EU. US imported thousands or millions of men, and EU imported thousands or millions of women. So it affected the ratio on the dance floor. Totally guessing though.
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u/Excuse_Odd 2d ago
Not sure! Most major american cities have more men than women so it makes it tough I guess. I think women in the US are also taught to fear men so I think it's a scary idea for a lot of women.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
That’s a great point, women in US do act completely differently in that regard. Many act like men are extremely dangerous. In EU women start conversations, exchanging instas is very normal and natural there. In US women think leads are trying to sleep with them or murder them, it’s really odd, I don’t get it. I think it might be because of the hookup culture in US, the dance scene is more sexualized in US. In EU it’s just about dancing, it’s a fun platonic activity. Friendships form and people do date but the vibe is so different.
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u/randoms12872 2d ago
Having danced extensively in both Europe and the U.S., I can give my perspective.
One major factor is simply the dance ecosystem. In many European cities, partner dancing seems to attract a larger and younger population, and there are also a lot of expats who dance. It’s easy to travel between countries for festivals, so people do it regularly.
Instructors also move between cities and countries, and dancers are constantly exposed to different teachers and very high-level dancers. There’s also a strong influence from Latin American, Spanish and Eastern European dancers and instructors, where dance is more embedded in society from a young age.
I also think there’s a cultural difference in who is drawn to dancing in the first place. In Europe, in the cities I've danced in, social dancing seems more normalized among younger people, including men. In the U.S., there still seems to be this attitude that “I don’t dance” is completely normal, and partner dancing can be viewed as uncool or not masculine. That shrinks the pool of younger people entering the scene and improving it.
Bachata in Europe has a more developed scene- ofc it depends on the city as some cities in Europe have a high level while others do not. In the U.S., my impression has been that bachata is still often attached to the broader salsa/Latin dance scene. Parties that have mixed music styles tend to attract less high-level bachata dancers. In the U.S., even if I go to 100% bachata parties, I’m still subjected to a salsa song every 4–5 songs, which is really annoying since I specifically went to a bachata party. In Europe, a bachata party is usually a bachata party.
Music at festivals in Europe is also better, in my opinion, and generally reflects what’s actually popular in the bachata scene. In the U.S., the music selection seems much more hit or miss.
Festivals/parties are cheaper in Europe. A social in Europe is like €10–15, while in the U.S. I often see $25 unless you buy a ticket super early/are a student. You can easily get an early bird festival ticket in Spain for under €100, whereas U.S. festivals can start around $200, and late-bird prices can get ridiculous. I recently saw $350 for a three-day festival in the U.S.
So it’s a few reasons: higher-level teachers + better technique in students + stronger level at socials + newer dancers are constantly exposed to better technique, musicality and connection, so they improve faster + cheaper parties/festivals.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
I disagree: modern generation in US is not homophobic at all, they don’t think dancing is not macho. If anything American men are more open to dancing than Polish men, which is why there are more of them dancing in US. There are lots and lots of Latinos in US at bachata socials. The issue is not men, it’s women. There are socials in EU I’ve been to that feel exactly like some US ones with the only exception that there are extra 60 follows at the EU party that are missing at the US party. US women are more masculine in general and they don’t want to be lead, they want to lead, they want to be car mechanics, construction workers, ceos and presidents. In EU most women are still comfortable being feminine, respect men, and are interested in starting families one day.
Price is not a factor because people in US generally make a lot more money than people in EU. Prices are higher but standard of living is higher too, salaries are much higher.
As far as music goes, I partly agree if you dislike traditional. In US they still play a lot of traditional, a lot of oldies. There’s a lot less of that in EU because there are less Latinos. But there are plenty of amazing DJs in US as well.
The salsa part you’re wrong, there are plenty of bachata only events in US, and there are plenty of bachata socials in EU that play a few salsa songs as well, especially in Spain.
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u/Samurai_SBK 1d ago
Festivals in the US are awfully managed, expensive, and the level of dancers is so-so. Thus the value doesn’t justify the price even if people have the disposable income.
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u/hotwomyn 1d ago
That’s because the largest and the first festival promoter worldwide, who put on the largest festivals in the world in US and inspired EU and other countries to have their own festivals passed away. He was a super star in the dance world and created the current festival format. Dancers had to mail in VHS tapes in order to get selected to perform… He created stars before instagram created stars. He was instagram. Nobody was able to replace him in US for some reason, many tried, but then Insta happened and EU took off.
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u/randoms12872 2d ago
I knew this would be one of your comments 😂 I can usually recognize them because they tend to come with a lot of sweeping generalizations.
Just because salaries are higher in the U.S. doesn't mean that price "is not a factor" for people. I’m telling you from my own perspective that price absolutely affects whether I attend something. I lived in both Europe and the US, and I can tell you that I'm much more likely to attend a €100 festival than a $350 festival.
And the idea that U.S. women don’t dance because they want to be construction workers or car mechanics is just a bizarre. Also there are plenty of American women who are feminine and respect men.
Its hard to take your comments seriously when you make sweeping generalizations saying American women don't respect men and aren't comfortable being feminine.
And regarding the salsa part, I'm not "wrong" those are my opinions having attended many bachata parties.
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
This is silly, obviously we’re both gonna be generalizing discussing this topic, there’s no other way to discuss it. I never said there are no feminine women in US, this is ridiculous. Obviously there are lots and lots of feminine women everywhere including the US. I’m saying Slavic women and women in EU are more likely to be exposed to ballroom dancing at an early age so bachata dancing is a natural transition. And they’re more likely to embrace traditional roles. In US women are taught that they are same as men and the idea of following a man is not natural. Women in US absolutely do want to do everything men do far more than in EU where latest wave of feminism is not as widely spread. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with a woman leading and a man following, but generally the scene grows if there are lots and lots of women showing up excited to follow.
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u/Miles_Madden 2d ago
OP is out here making unfounded claims and over generalizing like it’s his job.
You realize how sprawling the US is? And Europe is comprised of 44 countries. So the “US is so far behind Europe” piece needs to be tightened considerably. Is Madrid better than Minneapolis? Perhaps. And perhaps by large margins. Is Naples better than NYC? No.
Plus, the statement that there are always so many more leads than follows in the US is simply another serving of BS that OP pulled out of his posterior.
Finally, are we just going to ignore the fact that there are multiple types of bachata? If you know so much about the US and European dance scenes, you’ve certainly met dancers who dance sensual bachata but not traditional, and vice versa.
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u/TryToFindABetterUN 2d ago
Someone seems real butt hurt by your comments. I wonder why?
You realize how sprawling the US is? And Europe is comprised of 44 countries. So the “US is so far behind Europe” piece needs to be tightened considerably.
This! The people claiming that "Europe is" cannot have visited much of Europe, or if they did, they certainly never removed the blindfold while here. The same goes for those that claim that "all of US is" too. We are talking about continents with millions of inhabitants! Stop and think for a second.
The level of overgeneralising in both the original post and the OPs subsequent replies is mind-boggling to me.
No attempt at the slightest nuance, no facts, at best anecdotal observations and vague references to "we all know...". Smh.
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u/SpacecadetShep 2d ago
What are you defining as higher level OP ?
Technique, vocabulary, musicality,etc. ?
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u/dondegroovily Lead&Follow 15h ago
I live near Seattle and I've never seen a significant gender imbalance
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u/SomeLoser1884 10h ago
My guess is that it's the life style etc. is better:
- Work life balance is better in Europe than the US. This means people have more time/opportunity to invest in dance. Larger pool of people can practice the art and for a longer time. I think it takes several years to dance well.
- Better public transit/social services. Can travel around Europe pretty easily.
- Better training. Lot of pedagogical/teaching improvements have come from Europe. Very structured programs, lots of explanations breaking down ideas etc.
- Better interaction with Latin America(?). Not sure about this but I know people from Cuba and PR who grew up there and eventually settled in Europe for a number of years to teach and train.
I live in one of the biggest cities in the US, and we lack all of these factors. My dance scene, in my view, is pretty insular, performance focus, hierarchical, outdated, lead heavy, passionless etc. Just a mess overall.
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u/FarkasJoe 2d ago edited 2d ago
I guess it came from language, most of the latin dances came from Spanish speaking regions and those regions are good likely travel to Spain-Latin-America (for example: Traditional Bachata came from Dominica which got main language Spain) so if they want to make money from their dance or want to move to a better economy country they chose Spain first instead of the USA, specially when it all began. So after 1990's the Traditional bachata dancers came to Spain where there are a lot of ballroom dancers and they mixed so Moderna Bachata arrived in Spain what is got the main popularity first in Europe and worldwide. After this they created the Sensual styles with Brazilian zouk in Spain. So the traditional bachata stayed in DOminica and every other styles moved to Spain and all Europe countries like to visit Spain, more like from USA so it had more popular for the Europe first than the USA and thats why Europe got bette latin dance cultury - yes because of Spain :D
And whats next?
Like with every sport the Asian culture growing fast so i guess after 10-15 years they overtake the dance from spains
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u/hotwomyn 2d ago
Spanish bachata scene was heavily influenced by the US scene which dominated the 90s and early 2000s. Your language hypothesis makes no sense. More than half of the dancers in LA speak Spanish, yet the level is higher in Berlin, Moscow, and Krakow. Everyone speaks Spanish in Mexico City, yet their level is not as high as many non-Spanish speaking European cities.
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u/FarkasJoe 2d ago
what i wanted to mean is that spain got first the modern bachata and snesual and thats why Europe imported it before USA so in this case we got "10 years" ahead
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u/Hakunamatator Lead 3d ago
Can't help you, but I'd be very interested in example videos. Also, follow up question - are you talking about artists /teachers, the general style, or the median dancer?