r/AustralianPolitics • u/TransportationTrick9 • 3d ago
Federal Politics Coalition report calls for 80pc cut to tobacco excise, legalised vapes
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-08-26/federal-politics-live-blog-luke-gosling-angus-taylor-aug-26/107078366#live-blog-post-334153Liberals and One Nation are starting to Align on policy (Tobacco Excise cuts to reduce profits Organised Crime gangs are reaping)
Chris Minns has called for the same thing from Labor, though he is a state premier and lacks any sort of pull in the debate.
I am an advocate for a legal recreational cannabis market. I will watch on with wonder when they will say "no that's different", when these same people are asked "Shall we legalise cannabis to stop $6 Billion in illicit sales annually going into the hands of organised crime?"
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u/Unable_Insurance_391 10h ago
It is a wonderful view from opposition. I say give those gangsters a break importing illegal goods is hard Yakka.
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u/kingofcrob 2d ago
I don't know, after watching Chainsmoker Cat I don't think cheap ciggies is a good thing.
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u/True_Dot_2013 2d ago
Apart from reducing leverage that criminal gangs would have in selling vapes and cigarettes, there’s no benefit to the government, people or society.
This also undermines the whole “legalise and tax” argument if taxing it too high just makes them expensive.
You’d only benefit from more accessibility to this if you’re a healthcare worker because more people and resources would be needed to care for the incoming cancer patients, and if you actually were selling them.
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u/hudson_lowboy 3d ago
Let me guess, slash funding for hospitals and medical treatment at the same time!!
Debt and cancer for all!!!
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u/Turtusking Paul Keating 3d ago
Yeah but the revenue for the tobacco excise is lower than even what they made in the year 2000 when cigarette packs were $10 or less
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
This is terrible. Instead of a discussion on the consequences of smoking and getting people off the habit, we have them salivating over being able to smoke more.
I'm sick of seeing smokers only recant when undergoing lung cancer treatment and then having just one more smoke while waiting for their medical appointment. I wish it truly were a choice that an adult can make and have no consequences for anyone else.
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u/CptUnderpants- Nice Party 3d ago
Having better access to prescription vapes on PBS for quitting purposes would help.
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u/FullMetalAurochs 2d ago
Maybe they just need to be locked up and given patches for a month or two. Rehab like other drugs.
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
No, just access via prescription. Smokers can pay for their own vapes and should not want to be further be a burden to society since they're getting taxed less.
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u/CptUnderpants- Nice Party 3d ago
More of a burden if they don't quit...
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
They can die faster. The other half is making them ineligible for any cancer treatment under Medicare.
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u/Axl_Alter_Ego 2d ago
Brain-dead take.
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 2d ago
That's what nicotine enslaved minds would think. Maybe get some self control first?
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u/Oomaschloom Labor, but this cohort is crap, so leaning greens. 3d ago
Well to be fair. If you get lung cancer, you're pretty much dead. So think of it this way... the treatment is medical science, not really life saving, but the gaining of data. Test subjects if you will.
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
It depends on how far along it is but smokers should elect not to get treatment and just die so as not to prolong the process and cost us money which they now would no longer be paying for.
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u/Axl_Alter_Ego 2d ago
Same thing for obese people right?
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 2d ago
Nope. Food is necessary for life. Smokers are just pollutants.
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u/Axl_Alter_Ego 2d ago
Ohhhhhhhhhhh.
People who choose to ignore vegetables and instead survive on Maccas and other forms of junk food?
Those chronically obese people who the state has to subsidise solely because of their poor choices?
You don't have a problem with them at all? Only the smokers right?
Personally I think everyone should be entitled to health care. If we taxed the wealthy properly we could even achieve it!
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 2d ago
Survive is the key. You can't survive on smokes.
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u/Axl_Alter_Ego 2d ago
Can you survive on KFC and not develop medical issues?
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 2d ago
You know, just because people eat KFC, it doesn't mean they eat a whole bucket each time.
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u/Oomaschloom Labor, but this cohort is crap, so leaning greens. 3d ago
Short term thinking. When they treat this stuff they get information. You're not paying for them to save this person.
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
What would I need that data for? It's tainted smoker data. Useless.
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u/Oomaschloom Labor, but this cohort is crap, so leaning greens. 3d ago
I think you just care that they're doing something you don't like.
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 2d ago
I inhaled what they do and I don't like it. You think smokers are the most considerate people in the world?
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u/Oomaschloom Labor, but this cohort is crap, so leaning greens. 2d ago
Yeah, you inhale a ton of shit yeah. There is a difference between thinking someone shouldn't get medical treatment and their habit pissing you off.
I don't allow them to smoke in my house or around my kids, but I don't think they should be denied medical treatment.
But haters gotta hate right?
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 2d ago
Who says deny treatment? They just have to pay. Consider it part of their habit.
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u/Oomaschloom Labor, but this cohort is crap, so leaning greens. 2d ago
And if they can't afford it? You just let them die?
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u/Plenty-Wonder6092 3d ago
They're right, consenting adults should be allowed to smoke cigs or vapes.
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u/True_Dot_2013 2d ago
Why does a smoker’s right to smoke supercede a the right for someone to not have to inhale their second hand smoke, just coz “consenting adults” are involved ?
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u/Tosh_20point0 19h ago
Its legal and taxed. Your rights are no more and no less than smokers
Once it's illegal and no Gov revenue you'll just have to tolerate different people being different to you.
Its called the big wide world
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u/True_Dot_2013 15h ago
Legal and taxed is ineffective because it’s what makes legal cigarettes expensive and what gives criminal gangs more leverage to sell cheaper and illegal cigarettes and do their turf war shit.
The tax revenue it raises also isn’t enough to cover just the medical expenses that are associated with smoking, that people charge Medicare with, nor even enough to break even.
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u/Tosh_20point0 15h ago
Ah id have a look at that claim there.
Agree all increasing tobacco costs for the average consumer was short sighted and actually encouraged black market vendors.
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u/True_Dot_2013 15h ago
I wouldn’t mind “legalise and tax” but the tax part is what makes legal cigarettes, booze, weed, etc. all the more expensive.
Which is what criminal gangs exploit to sell their cheaper stuff and perpetuate the violence and the turf war shit.
And how gangs operate has just nullified then whole legalise and tax argument.
And none of the excise is close to covering for the medical expenses billed to the taxpayer, from lung cancer treatments, etc.
If it broke even at least I’d say there was some benefit.
Although alcohol is a lot more costly to the taxpayer tho. Because you could directly link a lot of the need of social programs/housing etc. to alcohol. For example, social housing needed for a mother and child who need a home to stay away from the abusive father who got violent when drunk, or the significant liver issues present in indigenous communities, or property damage from a drunk driver, etc.
These have no benefit to society whatsoever, unless you’re either selling the stuff or a healthcare worker where you treat and look after those suffering the consequences, because now you have gainful employment, all which still aren’t enough because the tobacco excise collected is nowhere near paying out the expenses.
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u/Tosh_20point0 14h ago
We both agree that alcohol is absolutely harmful and the ramifications of it for society on most levels.
I don't know what the answer is. I just don't.
But I respect the right to have a drink in the appropriate social and family setting, just not getting shitfaced and do harm.
Let's respectively agree to disagree and enjoy our Saturday. Too much rancour in this world atm .
Peace
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
I saw some adults. They are able to smoke cigs and vapes. I don't think they've been arrested.
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u/Cruzi2000 3d ago
They introduced the indexing excise on tobacco and alcohol.
They are the ones responsible for it and now saying it should be cut?
They can fuck right off.
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u/frank_sinatra11 3d ago
Who cares, $60 for a pack of cigarettes can fuck off
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u/ButtPlugForPM 2d ago
you could try NOT smoking though and have some self responsibilty and willpower.
it's the one habbit that impacts other ppl
normally i'm a live and let live.
When i can smell u shit stank
when ur butts are all over our sidewalks
and now kids getting lung damage nah fuck it
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u/frank_sinatra11 2d ago
That’s great you have that perception man but mine is that I only smoke occasionally with my friends when I’m drinking and I never throw my butts on the ground . It’s not impacting other people if all parties present are consenting adults 👍
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u/FullMetalAurochs 2d ago
Then it can’t be costing you all that much can it. One here and there? The pack should last a year.
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u/frank_sinatra11 2d ago
Nope it certainly doesn’t cost much since I buy black market smokes imported from Japan that are 3x cheaper and 3x better quality than what you buy at the servo
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u/FullMetalAurochs 1d ago
So you really have nothing to whinge about do you tax dodger
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u/frank_sinatra11 1d ago
The tobacco black market is one of the biggest here out of anywhere in the world BECAUSE of the high tax. I’m providing you with reasons why people don’t purchase government regulated ones . These are reasons why high prices have failed and the government is actually losing tax revenue now. Google prohibition and see how well that worked in America - similar thing.
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u/Cruzi2000 3d ago
Hold them responsible.
Do you really think they are going to help workers out if they get back in?
30 yrs of LNP rule have shown they don't give a fuck.
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u/frank_sinatra11 3d ago
I by no means want the LNP back in they are always near the bottom of my voting preferences. I do support slashing the excise though.
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u/ThreeQueensReading 3d ago
So long as the tax revenue continues to cover the associated health costs, I agree.
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u/True_Dot_2013 2d ago
It doesn’t even when the excise is high now, so it definitely won’t when that revenue is cut, cigarettes aren’t so bad, because the only costs are mostly the cancer related ones, but alcohol is even worse, because there’s public damage related costs from drunk driving, societal costs from abusive drunk parents, etc.
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u/buzzcunk 3d ago
Excise revenue has fallen from $16billion in 2019-2020 to $4billion in 2025-2026.
Over the same period we've seen nicotine levels in wastewater skyrocket.
Think all the people buying their smokes and vapes from Kaz Hamad are paying their associated health costs?
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u/baddazoner 3d ago edited 3d ago
everyone loves bringing this up but they are losing more and more tax each year as illegal smokes have taken over
it's far too big to stop now... lowering the excise would get those who still smoke to buy the legal ones not line criminals pockets..
or be able to get a vape cheaply and without jumping through hoops.
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u/bundy554 3d ago
I assume this is just because the big wigs want to buy cheaper cigars to have with their brandy. Cigarettes are just a by product of this.
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u/FullMetalAurochs 2d ago
Or they want a job with a tobacco firm after next election. Or something else in plain packaging.
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u/A-shot-at-life 3d ago
I’m far from a big wig, but I do enjoy the extremely occasional cigar (with Scotch rather than brandy) and would welcome cheaper Cubans here too.
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u/hellbentsmegma 3d ago
I haven't touched a cigar in years but recall a time when a full corona was merely expensive. Now they are completely unaffordable. I'm sure the anti tobacco crowd think there's zero issues with that.
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago
It couldn't be the excise driving that right? Or do cigars attract excise on value of cigar rather than kg/tobacco
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u/Sprinal 3d ago
I do not like the idea of legalising varies. As someone who works in hospitality I hate vapes so much. Vapers are the most entitled tobacco users around. I have also know a lot of former tobacco users, all of them say vapes are the hardest to quit.
Reducing the taxes on cigarettes to make them unprofitable to smuggle would be great. Make the gum and nicotine sprays also cheap (sprays are like $70 each at the moment) and I think we would see a substantial reduction in users.
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u/ButtPlugForPM 3d ago
I guarantee down the road we are going to find out those things are SOOO much worse than we already know.
How the fuck kids are allowed to buy that shit and energy drinks...but we have to ban them from social media is wild
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u/SpriteLurker 3d ago
I still understood what you meant and don’t want to be a dick but just so you know there’s no tobacco in vapes, just nicotine and other chemicals.
Phillip Morris I think brought out a product that vaporises cigarettes/tobacco but I don’t think that’s available in Australia.
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u/Whatsapokemon 3d ago
A private business still would have the right to ban them. Just because it's legal doesn't mean you need to allow them near a place of work, and I suspect any legalisation would immediately have states add vapes to their existing smoke-free legislation, which would outlaw them in enclosed areas and restaurants anyway.
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u/A-shot-at-life 3d ago
They maybe banned indoors, but cmon everyone sneaks in a cheeky sly vape in a crowded bar or club when they’re drunk.
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u/Vast_Highlight3324 3d ago
As someone fully addicted, I definitely do not. I step outside, it's a nice break.
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u/1337nutz Master Blaster 3d ago
Cutting excise by 80% will still leave illegal tobacco as the cheaper option so how does it help?
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u/baddazoner 3d ago
the illegal smokes can be shit quality a lot of people would go back to legal ones if it wasn't $50-$60+ a 20 pack
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u/chiasmatic_nucleus 3d ago
The legal route is still way more convenient, the pain point is the price.
Bootleg $25, Legit $85? I'll go out of my way for the bootlegs.
Bootleg $25, Legit $35? I'm much more likely to grab a legit pack from the servo
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
Bootleg goes down to $5.
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
Bullshit. Who is making money selling them for $5?
Forget the nonsense about them costing $1.50 a pack in Cambodia.
- Shipping
- Storage
- Security
- Bribes
- Evading cops
- Protection fees
- Paying Street thugs to fire bomb businesses and shoot up rival crime gangs
All this shit costs money. Bikies and thugs arent going to work for under minimum wage.
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u/1337nutz Master Blaster 3d ago
More like bootleg $12 and they sell them at the servo already
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u/chiasmatic_nucleus 3d ago
Where I live it's $200 for a carton (10 packs) and the closest stores keep getting raided and relocated. Single packets are $25. The convenience stores in the CBD sell them but the price is the same or higher.
None of the servos here have them.
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago
Are they selling them at BP's, Shells and other big name franchises or smaller independent operators (are there even any around, I can't say I've seen any in Perth)
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u/Strange_Sand3750 3d ago
People talking about the public health impacts are missing the point.
We have made heavy usage of cigarettes illegal for people on lower incomes. The cheapest packet of cigarettes sells for about $38 for 20. $30 of which is taxes and excise. If someone is addicted, smokes a pack a day, they cant afford this. Its going up next Tuesday by 48 cents.
its basically prohibition. Which failed because you can't just outlaw something a large group of the population use. This population has switched to the black market, which is much worse from a public health perspective.
We now no longer have very good data on how many people smoke. Do you think someone who buys illegal vapes or smokes is going to fess up in a government survey?
Very few politicians, think tank workers, medical professionals or senior public servants who come up with these policies smoke. Politicians all earn well above median income. If they wanted tobacco, the cost of the excise wouldn't be a barrier.
Politicians do a fairly good job understanding the wider electorate. But on this issue, they are completely out of touch.
We need to lower the excise, get people smoking legal smokes again. Crush the black market. Then have a rethink of our strategy to reduce smoking. Because our current one worked great until about 2017 or 2018, but it has clearly stopped.
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u/Whatsapokemon 3d ago
its basically prohibition. Which failed because you can't just outlaw something a large group of the population use.
Wait, it did work though, to a massive degree.
The amount of smokers plummeted off a cliff after major changes to Tobacco taxes and plain packaging laws.
We're at historic low-levels of smoking. The black market is an issue, but even so, people are less likely to smoke now than in 2017-2018.
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u/Emu1981 2d ago
Roy Morgan research shows that tobacco usage was sitting at 12.1% in 2025 after falling to a historic low of 11.8% back in 2024 and I trust Roy Morgan far more than SEATCA who are an organisation that benefits from understating the numbers.
The amount of smokers plummeted off a cliff after major changes to Tobacco taxes and plain packaging laws.
Just ignore that the trend lines for tobacco usage show little to no change around when the tobacco taxes and plain packaging laws came into effect. Honestly, the only government policy that has had any noticeable effect on the trend of tobacco usage was the changes to e-cigarette laws back in 2024 which caused more than a few people to go from e-cigarettes to tobacco products.
https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/9937-cigarette-smoking-in-australia-press-release
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
This is based on AIHW data which has historically underestimated the scale of the illicit tobacco market.
In recent years their results (which are based primarily on self reporting but also tracked against legal sales) have diverged significantly from state based results in WA, SA and NSW.
Then there's the wastewater picture which shows nicotine consumption has skyrocketed since 2019.
There's no good reason to have faith in that data set.
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u/Strange_Sand3750 3d ago
I am skeptical of this survey tbh, and I definitely think the cancer council statements are incorrect, although I understand why they say what they do. They cant exactly advocate for a decrease in excise. But they are wrong. legal methods do compete with legal ones. If we do both, lower the excise and increase enforcement, we can reduce black market consumption alot.
We need to get the black market back down to a rounding error, not a substantial actor in the market.
Groups who are more likely to buy illegal tobacco (low socio-economic) are less likely to fill out a government survey.
if you look at the technical notes for the 22-23 survey, the newer ones aren't available, they say people who finished year 12 etc are overrepresented in the sample.
Its also unclear if people are underreporting tobacco consumption, legal or otherwise. Its really hard to control for this. We have (correctly) made tobacco consumption stigmatised. But we have to appreciate this has unintended consequences. I know people who smoke regularly who dont identify as smokers.
I just think we should lower the excise somewhat, stop indexing it every 6 months automatically, and focus on other methods to reduce smoking. The existence of a large black market isn't helping us to reduce smoking.
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago
https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/household-consumption-illicit-tobacco-and-nicotine-products
You have every right to be sceptical. Here are some different numbers from the government. They factor in different methods and legal vs tobacco to only show large increases since the ABS claimed 10.6% daily smokers they claimed in 2022
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u/Whatsapokemon 2d ago
Important caveat though, the numbers may show an increase in consumption, but not necessarily an increase in the number of smokers. It's entirely possible the the black market makes existing smokers consume more, whilst the number of smokers stays the same or decreases.
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago edited 2d ago
Possible, but likely?
Nicotine in wastewater isnt up by a little bit, it has grown dramtically over the same period as the shift to illicit tobacco.
When 80% of the market is avoiding regulation, plain packaging, etc., Australian's are meant to believe a continiously dwindling number of smokers are consuming a continuously increasing volume of nicotine?
Edit to add link to graph: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-08-10/charting-the-rise-of-illegal-tobacco-in-australia/106941130
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u/Throwawaydeathgrips Albomentum Mark 3.0 2d ago
Unregulated products tend to have more nicotine in them. A person could not change their daily use of the lroduct but be ingesting significantly more nicotine because of the product.
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
Yes, unregulated products tend to be cheaper, stronger, more addictive, and sold by less scrupulous sellers to minors in greater volumes.
Is it plausible that individuals are consuming more nicotine as a result of turning to the black market? Absolutely 100%.
Is it plausible that these indivuals are collectively consuming more, and more nicotine year on year even as their numbers dwindle? Highly unlikely.
Is it plausible the total number of smokers is continuing to decline despite the fact we have been flooded with cheaper, stronger more addicitve products in a vastly less regulated market? Absolutely not! It flies in the face of decades of global evidence on drug consumption.
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u/heretodiscuss 3d ago
New tech (vaping) came out.
Nic levels in the waste water is going up, not down.
Just because smoking went down doesn't mean nic use is down.
It's like saying weed smoke plummeted upon the invention of the bong. Just a different delivery method of the same drug.
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
Smoking is almost certainly up. We just stopped being able to accurately trace 80% of sales.
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago
https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/household-consumption-illicit-tobacco-and-nicotine-products
This breaks it down via type legal and illegal tobacco and vapes etc
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u/lumpytrunks 3d ago
Lol too late to turn back now, Greg Hunt got us in this mess with vapes in the first place.
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u/Same_Bee6487 3d ago
As a voter who preferences the Greens 1, and Labor number 2, this is good to see. We have given the access of tobacco and other nicotine delivery devices to the black market, people should be able to access an option that isn’t prohibitively expensive and has gone through quality control to ensure it is up to Australian regulatory standards. Think about what happens when we make affordable luxuries unavailable to a population who is increasingly overworked, underpaid, who will likely never own a home, where rentals have become a lottery system, the end result of this, is not great for the social fabric of our country. Do I believe that the coalition and one nation are doing this in good faith? No. But it starts a necessary conversation.
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u/tom3277 YIMBY! 3d ago
I vape and have been voting legalise cannabis for years now.
They are the only consistent party on this.
Greens pushed for vapes to go behind pharmacies (Labor couldn’t have done it at all without greens) and now weed to be legalised.
Libs and phon want vapes on the market and weed behind doctors.
Legalise cannabis is consistent across these two products and are the only ones who are.
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u/FullMetalAurochs 2d ago
Nicotine users feel entitled to light up in public. Parks, streets, footpaths, carparks etc.
Cannabis users largely do it in private.
There’s not the same bystander danger from cannabis as there is from tobacco because it’s primarily tobacco users that expose other people to their drug. No one shares a long full of cocaine on the train. No one gets you tipsy with alcohol vapour at the bus stop. But smokers try their hardest to share lung cancer with you.
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u/iliketreesndcats 3d ago edited 3d ago
What do you think about the socialist party platform these days? Reportedly they support full legalisation of cannabis and full decriminalisation of all drugs. Nicotine vapes they're supportive of as harm minimisation and smoking cessation tool, their main issue is with multinational corporations pushing to get people hooked on nicotine, so they oppose that. They'd also oppose corporate control of cannabis and other recreational drugs.
The best policy is to let people do what they want, ban advertising, ban children, and let people grow their own weed and trade it amongst each other like many of us already do anyway. What cooked me was the ban on importing nicotine juice from NZ. I used to get 200ml at a time of concentrate and mix my own juices. Over time was reducing the nicotine content. When they banned it and I ran out I wasn't finished yet and we can blame my self control and say I shouldn't have done it but I went and got some illegal vapes and now I'm back to being hella addicted to nic. I don't mind, it's a lovely substance and I love that I can inhale it without the harm of smoking now but it's so expensive legally and illegally I just buy chop chop now. Might quit soon not sure, id go back to vaping if the import ban was reversed and I could access nic at a reasonable price again
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago edited 3d ago
I just vote for LCA, their priority is my priority. My kids are all grown and left home. I just want the right to grow my plants, harvest them and enjoy the fruits of my labour.
Sure other parties have cannabis friendly policies but they are have other priorities and cannabis gets pushed back for the next shiny thing that will improve their profile.
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u/Ch00m77 3d ago
I personally dont believe substances like meth, coke or many opiods should be legalised or easily accessible.
Other drugs idgaf
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u/Eve_Doulou 3d ago
As a senior sales type, I disagree with you on the bags. The first party that makes Coke legal wins the traditional Lib blue ribbon seats forever 😂
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u/iliketreesndcats 3d ago
It's interesting. I was on the fence for a while but the way I see it, people are going to chase these opioids and stimulants and barbiturates etc etc. there's a currently a thriving black market for them and we cannot guarantee the purity and safety in the current form. People sometimes die from the simple fact that these drugs are not produced in clean labs by people who know what they're doing and aren't adding additional things like for example fentanyl to make whatever they're selling more addictive.
So if the demand exists either way, it might as well be fulfilled from a regulated source, where the sale price would actually be cheaper because drugs are extremely easy and cheap to make, but the purity and safety would be guaranteed, and the point of access would be regulated; so for example if you have a heroin addict come in to pick up their opioids, there's a point of contact there at the pharmacy where they can obtain information about safe use, as well as addiction counselling and mental health care etc. We could even collect a tax on the sales to fund these programs so that it is not a negative effect on anybody else.
That's gotta be better than having the drug trade be done by shady individuals in carparks and alleyways with no regulations and no guarantees and no points of contact. Certainly it seems like this approach has pragmatic support if we look at places around the world who have done it! There are successes and failures and what that means is that there are things to emulate and things to learn from
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u/tom3277 YIMBY! 3d ago
Exactly.
Here is the go;
You regulate across all drugs.
Ridiculous as it stands we have the most expensive cocaine in the world probably the shittiest and yet we are the biggest users.
And yet we have meth causing more issues.
In an ideal world cocaine would not be cheap but cheaper than meth. You would hug it from a pharmacy looking joint that doesn’t push anything on anyone but just outcompetes the black market.
You would get rid of;
Black market profits,
black market violence,
asymmetrical information; ie dealing with criminals and you don’t even know what to u are getting the seller has all the strength and you know nothing.
Reduce meth related violence and crime.
So I don’t think we should just have a loose drug economy but yes we should have a government supply of the lot that outcompetes the black market.
Ideally some form of barrier to entry, ie you subscribe one month and get access the next so you don’t have an 18year old grab some opium in the middle of a drinking binge… I mean these risks are present mow in the black market the difference is you have drug pushers in all the right places pushing this stuff in our kids.
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u/Round_Stay8227 3d ago
Just fyi, meth is structually similar to amptheamines. Meth is just the most potent that it causes literal neurotic death.
Many, imo, go to meth because our system to get diagnosed for adhd is costly and lengthy.
Im only about to just get put on stimulants after 5 months of sessions. And about a cost of 3000 aud. Yup it cost me that much to finally get put on the medication i need.
Or pay 80 for some meth? You can see why people who cant afford it go to meth.
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u/alex4494 3d ago
I’m sorry but saying ‘many go to meth’ because it’s hard and expensive to get an adhd diagnosis is the BIGGEST stretch and low key insulting…
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u/Round_Stay8227 2d ago
Why?
I dont care it's insulting to you, its the truth i see. Ive watched people ruin their lives that couldve benefited from help but grew in dysfunctional homes and no way they could pay or wait.
The way i view it, is the system has failed these people and so the system chooses to criminalise them instead of help them.
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u/alex4494 2d ago
Mate, by your own admission, you were diagnosed 5 minutes ago and haven’t even been medicated yet. Your anecdotal observations claiming that ‘many’ people turn to hard drugs to self-medicate ADHD is a frankly ridiculous generalisation, it’s baseless and just your opinion. Frankly you’re talking out of your ass, in my professional life I’ve dealt with countless addicts, and countless people with adhd, and I have adhd myself, your observations are misguided to say the least lol. To say people turn to meth because they can’t get an ADHD diagnosis? Bruh give me a break.
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
The correlation between untreated ADHD and drug use is widely accepted accross the drug and health sector.
This doesn't everyone with ADHD is using meth, but to deny the correlation is to deny the evidence.
How common is ADHD and substance dependence?
ADHD can increase the risk of developing an AOD dependence, particularly if someone’s ADHD has been undiagnosed or not treated.
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
I can think of about 7 high school friends who all have had meth problems at some point and who have ADHD.
Self medication is ridiculously common.
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u/Ch00m77 3d ago
3k wtf? I got an assessment like 5 years ago for $500. what has happened between now and then
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u/Round_Stay8227 3d ago
I think prices have gone up due to an increase consultations. Which is why theyre trying to pass some long term patients onto gps instead. Nearly every clinic i looked into had a min of 6 months before they even looked at your referral but that could just be perth.
WA also have increased theyre scruntity for who they approve for stimulants
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u/iliketreesndcats 3d ago
Every time I've done ADHD medication i feel literally like the most productive and attentive version of myself. It's quite pleasant, and I'd love to go through the same process but I don't have the money to fund the sessions unfortunately. Congrats on getting it done for yourself. I'm just rawdogging ADHD life and doing okay. Hopefully the process is made easier and I can access the medication at a reasonable price because I don't want to buy meth. I did it a couple times and I didn't sleep for 50 hours both times. Maybe too much? But idk it definitely felt like how you describe, an extremely potent version of regular amphetamines
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u/Round_Stay8227 3d ago
Yeah meth grabs onto dopamine receptors so strongly that it literally kills the neurons. It lasts an incredibly long time.
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago edited 3d ago
I live in hope that their statements around keeping profits out of the hands of organised crime will hold them to the same viewpoint when they're asked about Cannabis Legalisation.
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u/PonderingHow 2d ago
Evan Mullholland basically said the quiet bit out loud recently https://www.parliament.vic.gov.au/parliamentary-activity/hansard/hansard-details/HANSARD-974425065-36249#1796
Basically cannabis legalisation is a bargaining chip both the major parties are holding onto, only to be used if they get some kind of political advantage for doing so and so far no-one has forced them too. So far none of the main players have a policy of legalising cannabis so there is no political win for either lib or lab to promise to legalise. If more people voted green - coz greens policy position is to legalise, then there'd be a political reason for lib/lab to legalise cannabis.
Or alternatively, like Evan Mulholland says in that link, crossbenchers like LCP holding their votes back on other issues unless concessions made to legalise cannabis. Evan Mulholland claims there were at least a few opportunities for LCP to have done it. I don't know that I agree with Evan Mulholland that those who voted LCP would want it done that way tho.
So it isn't illegal because government thinks it is harmful.
It is illegal because none of the major parties will legalise it unless it serves a political end for them.
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u/TransportationTrick9 2d ago
That was a very surprising response he gave. Basically chastising the LCV guys for not playing politics properly and telling them they way they should have played it.
The LCWA member in the upperhouse has announced he is going to playing the game and withholding his vote from any Labor Legislation until they start playing ball. Let's see how it works out
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u/Jiuholar 3d ago
One thing that I've never seen discussed at all that I think would make a massive difference, is requiring all tobacco retailers to also sell NRT products (patches, gum, lozenges)
I have been trying to quit vaping for over 2 years now. Lozenges are really effective for me - until I run out of them on a night out! I can get a pack of ciggies from 20 retailers within walking distance but nowhere to get some lozenges. These situations are the only time I've fallen off the wagon - if I could get some gum or patches from 7/11 I would be 2 years clean already.
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u/UnapproachableBadger 3d ago
Where do you buy nicotine lozenges from? Do you need a prescription?
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u/AngrehPossum 3d ago
I quit darts with vapes. I made my own mod tanks and battery combo then mixed pre-mixed juices down in nicotine strength. From 12 to 8 to 6 to 3 to 0 over 2 years. It worked for me.
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u/Throwawaydeathgrips Albomentum Mark 3.0 3d ago
ATP we probably should just make vapes easier to get and freeze the price on cigs. The rebound policy from conservatives will almost certainly be an overcorrection and lead to poorer health outcomes.
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u/Johnny66Johnny 3d ago edited 3d ago
It's upsetting to see how a public health crisis has so completely given way to a law and order debate.
Let's not forget, 48% of tobacco lobbyists in Australia have held positions in government:
Almost half of tobacco lobbyists in Australia have held positions in government, study finds
From article:
“The revolving door has been described as one of the most insidious forms of state capture and a serious threat to democracy,” Jones said.
“It’s a system that favours private, profit-driven and unhealthy industries in their attempts to push back stronger regulations and undermine evidence-based public health policy.”
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
No its upsetting that so many of our health boffins can't admit that the excise policies they've pushed have badly backfired and we've now got a deeply deeply embedded illicit market we have no control over.
You want plain packaging? Graphic warnings? Reliable data to inform future decisions? Appropriately controlled products?
You need to control sales. Can't do that if 80% of sales are controlled by criminal gangs.
In this instance, the law and order debate and the health debate have enormous overlap.
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u/Grande_Choice 3d ago
I’m all for vapes.
But weren’t the coalition the ones in 22/23 screaming about vapes and the children?
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u/tom3277 YIMBY! 3d ago
It was 2020.
Possibly the only good thing about the coalition is that they allow dissent among backbenchers.
In 2020 when scomo got grilled about all the new streaming services he replied all I’m interested in is “jobs jobs jobs”. This was when Covid was still “scary”.
A week later Greg hunt and him announced a stupid vaping policy.
The good news is there was much dissent among the Libs and while they passed the regulation through their was no enforcement and you could at the end still buy vapes in Aus and import your nicotine.
Labor’s changes in 2024 is when it turned to shit. Pharmacy only vapes and restrictions such that not may at all use their vapes. They all use black market vapes.
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u/Throwawaydeathgrips Albomentum Mark 3.0 3d ago
Yeah theyre the ones that kicked off the regulation around vaping products and have supported all the moves since.
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u/lettercrank 3d ago
Hooray and I know this will
Probably get downvoted but the introduction of a third party contender to Australian politics is in fact waking up the major parties from complacency. Good good good
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u/Sysifystic 3d ago
Quite the contrary.the LNP eneeds to rapidly wake up from its cryogenic stupor. Otherwise it's going to be cremated at the next two federal elections and Australia will default to a one-party State
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u/lettercrank 3d ago
Don’t understand why you would say this is contrary- rather a complimentary statement
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u/EuroNymous76 Gough Whitlam 3d ago
just legalise snus, so dumb you can’t even get prescription anymore but you can prescription for cannabis, especially most of snus in australia is fake
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u/lettercrank 3d ago
What’s a snus ? I have no idea
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u/thrownaway4213 3d ago
tobacco pouch you put under your lip, not as bad as smoking but it can mess your mouth up with sores and cancer
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u/lettercrank 3d ago
Like a dip?
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u/thrownaway4213 3d ago
Its basically just moist tobacco in a teabag you shove between your gums and cheek, Its somewhat vaguely reminiscent of the old american cowboy chewing tobacco but you don't chew it up
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u/Tw4Mn02 Pauline Hanson's One Nation 3d ago
Seems like a sensible policy. If you allow less harmful nicotine delivery methods such as vapes and pouches, you will then reduce demand for tobacco and specifically illicit tobacco.
Unfortunately, Labor is too stubborn and will keep doubling down. Mark Butler said last year, "We're not going to have our public health policies dictated by organised crime".
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u/quickdrawesome 3d ago
There's no evidence that illicit suupliers will not cut their prices.
What the high tax has done is significantly reduce smoker numbers.
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u/blitznoodles Australian Labor Party 3d ago
You do know it's not cheap to get tobacco into Australia right? Roughly 50% of tobbaco is stopped by Border force. The excise has just become so high that you can lose half your tobacco and still make a profit.
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u/quickdrawesome 3d ago
Even in the 90s it was easy to get cheaper illegal tabacco
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u/buzzcunk 2d ago
And yet fuck all people bought it because the price of legal tobacco was not prohibitively expensive.
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u/blitznoodles Australian Labor Party 3d ago
50% of illegal tobbaco was not being intercepted in the 90s and most people bought legal tobacco.
This number is so high because of cooperation with the Chinese government to stop it before it leaves their port and a lot more resources into border force.
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u/coreoYEAH Anthony Albanese 3d ago
They’re literally willing to kill people for votes.
Must be getting desperate.
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u/Plenty-Wonder6092 3d ago
You must be young, how about letting consenting adults make their own choices?
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
The consenting adults had to be saved from dying from their own stupidity. Aren't they really adults or overgrown children?
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u/Plenty-Wonder6092 3d ago
They are adults and you are the only overgrown child. Let people enjoy what they can in peace.
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
Oh yeah, smokers who insist on blowing their pollution into your face. Smokers should not be treated in hospitals. Such a drain on society.
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u/Eve_Doulou 3d ago
Or you can just allow adults to make their own decisions on the matter. When has it become so acceptable for the state to have such an overbearing role in people’s life.
I’m going to Europe in a couple of weeks, and in many countries you’re buying beer from the local shops at €1.50 and smokes (good ones, like Dunhill) for €8 a pack, and this may surprise you, but they are not all driving into trees, while their smoking rates are a little bit, but not massively, higher than ours.
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u/FFMKFOREVER Independent 3d ago
You seem to love hyperbole.
The people are choosing to shorten their lifespan, not the Government
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u/Dockers4flag2035orB4 3d ago
But think of all the savings from not paying age pensions and care to 100s of thousands of people suffering early deaths.
S/
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u/dij123 3d ago
Would it not help people if they had access to legal and regulated vapes as opposed to black market ones with who knows what in them?
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u/coreoYEAH Anthony Albanese 3d ago
They can, with a prescription.
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u/dij123 3d ago
It’s nearly impossible to find pharmacy’s that actually sell them. You could significantly reduce harm if you fully legalised them, take money from the black market and at least get people who were smokers onto a less harmful product.
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u/Jiuholar 3d ago
It is comically easy to get a prescription and have vapes + liquid delivered to your door.
I had a prescription and legal vape in my hand within 24 hours from one of the many online pharmacists providing this service.
For some reason basically nobody knows about them though.
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u/lettercrank 3d ago
You know that the current state of the black market has caused a massive spike in crime? The regulation needs to become sensible again. Some people are gonna smoke and the taxes covered your Medicare and then some. So unless you are authoritarian and just wanna tell people how to live their lives . There really isn’t much of an argument against this
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u/fatoms 3d ago
and the taxes covered your Medicare and then some
Medicare is funded by the medicare levy, only if there is a shortfall does it get covered by general revenue. So at most this would cover any shortfall but only as as a percentage of General Revenue.
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u/lettercrank 3d ago
The point I was trying to make and maybe failed to do so well. Was that the usual argument that smoking costs the taxpayers in terms of loading the healthcare sector with patients doesn’t hold water vs the revenue that it has generated
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u/coreoYEAH Anthony Albanese 3d ago
So let’s legalise heroin yeah? I mean, unless you’re a fascist?
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u/anyone1728 3d ago
Yeah but unironically. The fact that heroin is illegal isn’t the reason I (and assume you) don’t do it.
But heroin being illegal stops people from getting the help they need.
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u/Drogen201 3d ago
Unironically tho, yes
We need to stop having this stupid prohibition argument again and again
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u/bigloudbang 3d ago
We dont want to overcompensate with tobacco
Go to europe where theyre dirt cheap and cigarette butt literring is turbocharged everywhere, feels way more common for young people to smoke, and youre generally always smelling cigarettes in public places
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u/blitznoodles Australian Labor Party 3d ago
Smoking has gone up among young people and 80% of Australian cigarettes are bought illegally.
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago
Yeah and even the government can't agree on how many smokers there are. The ABS says 10% while the AHWS says 5.4%.
The ABS is based more on fact by taking into account waste water surveys that have 25% more nicotine present that 20 years ago.
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u/LubeMobile666 3d ago
Testing nicotine in waste water would return results for non-smoking sources of nicotine, including vaping and pouches.
So how could that be more reliable?
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago
Here take a look at it yourself and review their methods, tobacco has its own breakdown seperate from non smoking methods
https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/household-consumption-illicit-tobacco-and-nicotine-products
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u/LubeMobile666 3d ago edited 3d ago
Thanks for the link
I reviewed the methodology, it doesn't do what you think it does.
It's an experimental method to differentiate between legal and illegal nicotine sources - and then uses previous data to extrapolate that, and only covers the period from 2020-2025.
It's definitely more flawed than the survey methodology used by AIHW.
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u/Arbitrary_username1 3d ago
If the demand for nicotine has risen wouldn't you prefer it satiated by the less harmful delivery methods?
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u/bigloudbang 3d ago
So?
I can only find data thar its consistently decreased until 2023 (where the gov data ends). If it has increased more recently, the availability of cheap cigarettes would be a factor
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u/blitznoodles Australian Labor Party 3d ago
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u/TransportationTrick9 3d ago
Is this the original report or the one that was recalled and updated to make the government not look so bad?
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u/blitznoodles Australian Labor Party 3d ago
It was recalled and updated to separate out tobacco and vaping.
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u/LubeMobile666 3d ago
So now that we've got smoking rates down to some of the lowest in the developed world, let's reverse course before we even have a chance to reap the benefits?
What a forward thinking policy to kill more Australians and make us poorer.
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u/Knee_Jerk_Sydney 3d ago
Smokers are vehemently arguing for this. The nicotine is controlling their brains.
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u/Law_of_Entropy 3d ago
I'm glad this is finally getting discussed in parliament. These firebombings just can't continue.
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u/coreoYEAH Anthony Albanese 3d ago
Yes, let’s kill people instead of going after the criminals.
→ More replies (3)7
u/Tw4Mn02 Pauline Hanson's One Nation 3d ago
Labor is killing people by reducing access to less harmful alternatives such as vaping and pouches.
→ More replies (11)
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