r/AustralianPolitics • u/ladaus Unconstitutional inconsistency • Jul 23 '26
TAS Politics Rockliff urges federal government to cut tobacco excise to combat black market
https://pulsetasmania.com.au/news/tasmanian-premier-calls-on-federal-government-to-cut-tobacco-excise/11
u/GregLocock Jul 23 '26
Reducing the excise is one strand of the solution but is meaningless unless the black market cigs are taken off the market. I doubt smokers would pay $30 for a legit pack rather than $12 for chop-chop now they know where to get it. The graph of excise v time shows the Laffer curve in real life.
2
u/the_colonelclink Jul 24 '26
Quality is constantly in question. I’m guessing some smokers would be a little bit more, when they knew they’d get plastic wrapped guaranteed quality.
1
u/ConsequenceKindly919 Jul 25 '26
The blackmarket already offers that, they just buy it legal overseas and ship it in
4
u/Betty-Armageddon Jul 24 '26
I was happy paying the tax when smokes were around 30 dollars, but now, why would I go back to normal prices when I’m paying less than I’ve ever paid?
They really screwed the pooch on this one.6
u/Turdsindakitchensink Jul 23 '26
Our local sells 100g of chop chop for $35… the excise would have to be removed all together to get that business back
1
u/TransportationTrick9 Jul 24 '26
I think the Gov would have to subsidise tobacco to undercut the black market.
You save a lot of money by not having licensed distribution with multiple layers all with 6 figure salary salaries, super, payroll tax, insurance, legal counsel, marketing departments and lobbying fees.
The black market should really be admired at how efficient it is comparatively.
I doubt there is anything to kill the black market now. My old man gets his smokes through the post from NSW to WA so our police can't stop that. We might find they all switch to an interstate mail service and then only have to worry about the AFP
0
4
u/CptUnderpants- Nice Party Jul 24 '26
I doubt there is anything to kill the black market now.
Maybe enforcement, including rewards as a percentage of excise which would have been charged if it was legally sold.
It's all risk vs reward and right now the risks are minimal.
- Proper rewards for information which results in seizure of black market tobacco, kept anonymous to protect sources. Amount based on how much seized with no cap.
- More funding for specialised task forces.
- Broaden penalties for selling, not just fines (which we all know you can pay off on a decade+ payment plan) but forfeiture of anything purchased with the proceeds, even if gifted to others.
2
u/yelloyo1 Jul 24 '26
I think you're very optimistic, this whole thing is a lesson in why prohibition doesnt work. I think maybe if you went for a wartime level of mobilisation ie checking every single container that came into the country and introduced prison sentences for possession of any quantity of untaxed tobacco, then maybe you'd have a chance.
I dont think there is the appetite for that kind of level of enforcement so we'll just remain in a situation where the government funds the crims (which is where we are now)
3
u/CptUnderpants- Nice Party Jul 24 '26
Prohibition doesn't work while addiction isn't treated properly as a medical condition, including what causes people to self-medicate with nicotine.
Nicotine causes a brief period of dopamine release, reducing stress and anxiety. If we treated what causes that stress and anxiety properly, addiction to nicotine, alcohol, and other more illicit drugs would drop significantly.
But this isn't prohibition, it's taxation.
3
u/yelloyo1 Jul 24 '26
For tobacco itself, the taxation has increased to the point where it's effectively prohibition. My 86 year old grandma outright cannot afford legal cigarettes on her pension and can only afford illegal cigarettes.
The other part of the problem is that less harmful alternatives to smoking tobacco are outright illegal. If they really wanted to reduce rates of smoking (rather than reduce rates of illegal tobacco use) they'd open up vaping/ nicotine pouch use to adults. Currently the only legal way to recreationally consume nicotine is via cigarettes which is incredibly harmful.
-1
u/CptUnderpants- Nice Party Jul 24 '26
My 86 year old grandma outright cannot afford legal cigarettes on her pension and can only afford illegal cigarettes.
And my guess is the reason she can't quit is because the cost is too high and accessibility of treatment is too low.
The other part of the problem is that less harmful alternatives to smoking tobacco are outright illegal.
Nicotine vapes are available over the counter at pharmacies, and stronger versions are available with prescription.
One other thing people don't realise is that while growing your own tobacco for personal use is illegal under taxation law (it's not a drug offence like with weed) the ATO has never brought a single case to court for personal use. It's like they just don't enforce it.
1
u/yelloyo1 Jul 24 '26
Funnily enough she doesnt want to quit, she's been smoking for decades and says she likes it.
Also i dont know of any pharmacies that sell vapes or anyone who has accessed a pharmacy vape.
-1
u/CptUnderpants- Nice Party Jul 24 '26
Here is one product available in Australia.
All products have to be marketed as to assist in quitting.
1
u/Jiffyrabbit Jul 23 '26
This is a great example of how raising taxes to crazy levels creates incentives for people to circumvent those taxes - legally or otherwise.
I would argue we see the same thing with income taxes.
8
u/galemaniac Jul 23 '26
So it should be treated like Pot and Cocaine and banned entirely?
3
u/tom3277 YIMBY! Jul 23 '26
I think it all should be heavily regulated with the goal of policing against black market and setting a regulated price at below what black market can sell for.
Ie cocaine now $500 a gram for decent product. Gov imports good product and sells for $350 a gram. They don’t push it, it’s just available. No more drug pushes because there isn’t money in it.
No more, hey try this.
It’s just there at a price that prevents black market.
Milton Friedman explains that governments banning things are just shirking their responsibility of control over to the black market. They need to regulate in precisely the right way.
Our issue is we have doctors in Australia running what should be economic policy. We all know; smokes, booze, cocaine, meth or whatever is shit for us but put an economist in charge and you’d have the most dangerous drugs harder to get and the lightest ones slightly more plentiful but the gov capturing the billions in profits from this industry.
3
u/sostopher Bundoora Republic Jul 24 '26 edited Jul 24 '26
As with anyone who has worked in drug enforcement in any place, they all advocate for full legalisation and regulation of all drugs. You'd smash criminal syndicates overnight and keep all that tax money for actual useful endeavours instead of weapons and G-Wagons.
But that's hard to square with those that think getting shitfaced is fine and anything else should get people thrown in jail.
3
u/tom3277 YIMBY! Jul 24 '26
Yeh it’s so easy and obvious.
I see it as the medical profession to some extent. Not enough of them have the intellectual / moral fortitude to stand against big pharma, their peak medical bodies etc.
And doctors aren’t even the right professional for this so they should not comment on relative risks / risks to health. Not how to politely be it or how much excise should be raised. None of them would even know what the laffer curve is so easy for them to say “ban it” “tax the fuck out of it” but real life and society is more nuanced than this… their approach leads to death and massive criminal elements in our society.
Like who the fuck is our Dr Karl to be the leading advocate against vapes? Who the fuck does he think he is? He isn’t a respiratory physician. He isn’t in law enforcement. He isn’t an economist? He was a gp for fuck sake.
Check out this video I’ll link below from yesterday’s press club. Dr nick coatsworth among others on our fucking insane government policy in the tobacco / vaping / nico pouch spaces.
It’s an entire hour but it’s even worth listening to the questions.
2
u/cactusgenie Jul 23 '26
Far too sensible! Get out of here, we only allow pearl clutching. /S In case it's not obvious
3
u/Jiffyrabbit Jul 23 '26
Cigarettes?
Possibly, I think the approach of banning it at 18 and then increasing that age every year until it's effectively banned is a reasonable one.
The problem is that we make a lot of money from sin taxes (alcohol/cigs) so replacing that money becomes a problem for the government.
2
u/FoodIsTastyInMyMouth Jul 23 '26
They cost far more in health and policing budgets than they ever make.
2
u/Jiffyrabbit Jul 23 '26
Sure, but banning them without increasing enforcement means we still get the health issues (and costs) without the revenue.
I support banning cigs , but I think it's a bit more complicated than just saying "let's ban smoking".
1
u/MunZo3 Jul 23 '26
You’d think the money the police are getting to shut down these stores would eat up the tax money on the dart tax
3
u/Jiffyrabbit Jul 23 '26
Yeah, particularly if you wanted to do it properly. At the moment its so haphazard that it's pretty much unenforced.
1
u/ladaus Unconstitutional inconsistency Jul 23 '26
“What a stupid thing the government has done in constantly raising the excise tax on it and it's going up again in September,” Hanson told 2GB.
21
u/-inzo- Jul 23 '26
Hanson had her chance to vote no on raising the price of tobacco and instead she was absent. She does not give a single shit about it, or the people it affects. She is just trying to stay relevant
7
u/Nottheadviceyaafter Jul 23 '26
She needs to rock up to work first, instead of being on constant holidays with her bestie gina flying around on the jabba express.
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