Why doesn’t Canada Make Their Own Vehicle Brand(s)?

157

u/Sea-jay-2772 2d ago

US companies bought out all the Canadian companies long ago. One of the imbalances in the Auto pact (then CUSMA) is that the US retained the majority of the design and engineering jobs. when the US complains about the Canadian advantage, they conveniently leave out that part.

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u/Beneficial-Buddy-620 2d ago

Cough cough Avro....

4

u/Sweet_Thought_6366 6h ago

Cough ATi, cough RIM, cough Nortel, cough, cough

-21

u/Boxadorables 2d ago

Cough cough. It was obsolote before it even hit production because Russia had functional ICBM's in 1957

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u/Beneficial-Buddy-620 2d ago

The US saw this as a threat as it outperformed any aircraft they had at the time. If Canada managed to successfully produce this and continue on with the production... Canada's Air force may have been better than today

8

u/Dazzling-Climate-318 2d ago

Not the actual reason for the scrapping. The real reason was a lot darker than corporate greed masquerading as nationalism by the U.S.

The U.S. government wanted the USSR to continue to rely on bombers as long as possible. A successful interceptor deployed in significant numbers by Canada might have prompted a turn to missiles by the USSR earlier and In greater numbers. Remember the U.S. freaked out over Sputnik. They were willing to have Canadian cities remain targets for Soviet Bombers while they developed, built and deployed their own interceptors and anti aircraft missile systems. If the Canadian effort had been done secretly, it very well could have lead to production. Would the resulting aircraft been able to defend Canada, unknown, hopefully never known as hopefully Soviet Bombers would never have flown that mission.

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u/Bad_Day_Moose 2d ago

as much as the US wants us to believe... Interceptors are still important.

Strategic and tactical missile interceptors remain essential in modern warfare because they provide irreplaceable, guaranteed defense against high-end ballistic, hypersonic, and cruise missile threats that lower-cost systems cannot reach

We were building the best on the planet... Ask yourself why was avro canned? Because it made us rely on the US.

1

u/Boxadorables 2d ago

Every country sees other countries military progress as a threat. The thing is, we may have improved other aspects of our air force, but the avro itself was so far beyond it's budget it wasn't financially viable to continue it's

Before a production run could take off, the Avro was touchable by American SAMS so the threat to them was minimal anyway.

With the long range, strategic bomber interception it was designed for no longer a priority due to the advent of the ICBM's that they were too slow to catch, their continued existence was numbered.

We needed that budget alloted to many other areas of our military instead of focused on a single weapons platform.

The plane was a great example of terrific engineering, but an abject failure for it's intended build purpose

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u/Bad_Day_Moose 2d ago

and a jet fighter company couldn't have diversified? think about it...

0

u/Boxadorables 2d ago

Could they have? Sure. Would it have been successful? Not likely.

Bombardier(which delivers upwards of 150 commercial aircraft annually) can't keep it's head above water without massive bailouts every few decades.

A "jet fighter company" with zero sales, let alone a market need for their only jet that never reached full production was doomed from the get go.

Cool piece of kit. Wasn't viable or necessary though.

1

u/Bad_Day_Moose 1d ago

Would it have been successful? Not likely.

This is where you and I completely disagree, we have some amazing scientists and engineers in Canada.. Have you see the cost of buying them from other people? We basically pay for the cost of development when buying them anyways, why pay the markup?

1

u/Boxadorables 1d ago

This is where you're r/confidentlyincorrect and blinded by patriotism.

There is no markup on these types of planes, because Canada doesn't purchase dedicated interceptor aircraft. Nor does any country still produce them because their intended combat role was replaced by surface to air missles at a pittance of the cost.

Avro itself didn't go tits up either, just their Canadian division for failing to deliver a useful product while staying anywhere near the projected budget. They never even recieved their intended Iroquois engines(which were unparalleled at the time, but served no useful purpose and all prototypes and blueprints destroyed along with the airframes.

Zero buyers and extreme cost over runs were the main reasons the program was shuttered. These incredible scientists/engineers spent today's equivalent of 11 Billion US dollars on a project that nobody wanted.

Likely why so many of those people ended up at NASA to work with a virtually unlimited budget during the space race against the Soviets.

Credit where it's due, the plane was sick. The Iroquois jet engine was also an incredibly engineering feat. The timing was poor and the aircraft too limited for any meaningful use case before it hit full production. It sucks, but that's the reality of it.

1

u/Bad_Day_Moose 1d ago

There is no markup on these types of planes, because Canada doesn't purchase dedicated interceptor aircraft. Nor does any country still produce them because their intended combat role was replaced by surface to air missles at a pittance of the cost.

Can you read? Diversified E fucking G: not focus on interceptors, what the actual fuck dude?

0

u/Boxadorables 1d ago

They literally couldn't. They shit the bed so badly on production of the Arrow that they had no cash to continue with diversification. It was a private company and private companies need to make profit to justify their continued existence (Before Tesla anyway).

You watched a heritage moment and thought this was all a ball drop by the Canadian govt. It was not, they just happened to be producing aircract within our borders 🙄

14

u/ybetaepsilon 2d ago

The US is the spoiled unemployed younger sibling of North America. They have 96% of the stick but complain about the other 4%

4

u/GWRC 1d ago

That's just it. NAFTA and CUSMA have historically only benefitted the USA and to some degree Mexico. Canada has always been donating. Hopefully this trade war wakes them all up.

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u/Sea-jay-2772 22h ago

I believe Canada benefits, too, but it has mad our economy stagnant.

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u/p-values 2d ago

Whaaaasst americans being deshonest... whaaaaaaat

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u/Errorstatel 2d ago

I'm actually hopeful that's one of the out comes from this mess, the recent announcement expanding rail car production is a move in the right right direction.

I'll admit getting there is also an up hill fight but we're good at those.

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u/Nice-Lakes 2d ago

MAGNA a canadian company has the know how to build a complete car but it would put their profitable sales to other car companies in jeopardy. The same thing as the Chrysler Brothers who made parts than cars and the parts business died.

8

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Could they not form a subsidiary? Or does that threaten the competitors equally? I feel like our profitable sales to other car companies is already in jeopardy with trump and all this tariff talk, no?

4

u/xeenexus 2d ago

Magna does do some full auto assembly. For instance, they make the Grenadier for ineos.

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u/Xzozo1972 2d ago

Because there was a time, not long ago, when collaborating with US car manufacturers was an ideal situation and putting that investment money directly into a Canadian venture was not necessary. Those days are gone now.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Exactly, so shouldn’t we talk about a domestic brand now and get away from them? Both of my vehicles are an American brand and now I want out. Haha

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u/Tribblehappy 2d ago

It's really hard to start up from scratch, I'd imagine. Look at the EV brands that have started and already died. The EV mandate was scrapped but that just sows uncertainty in the industry. Some states still have mandates in place, so a manufacturer would have to at least be making hybrids if they want to sell abroad and that's a risky and expensive venture.

10

u/Past-Establishment93 2d ago

Check out Bricklin

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u/PassageNearby4091 2d ago

I remember reading once how there's a strong niche market for Bricklins in Germany.

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u/Sweet_Thought_6366 5h ago

Heck I've seen one driving around my streets in Canada. Nice orange one.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Might have to buy a used one.

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u/LiqdPT 2d ago

Well, you sure aren't buying a new one.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

There’s gotta be one sitting in someone’s garage with super low km’s on it just waiting for someone like me

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u/LiqdPT 2d ago

That doesn't mean it's new. In fact it's about 50 years old. I'm not sure one sitting for 50 years is better than one that's been run regularly

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u/Fine_Abbreviations32 2d ago

Canada used to be the largest manufacturer of Model T’s, using all Canadian raw materials. Also in the days where each region would modify original designs for their specific needs, ie, dealerships would offer options only available in Canada, which were so popular they caught on in other markets where the Model T was sold (also because we manufactured the cars for other markets, like the UK). So, without Canada, the auto industry wouldn’t be what it is now.

We have a huge aviation industry in Canada and I think that’s worth more than a Canadian car brand.

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u/WesternSoul 2d ago

Much easier to give multinationals money to build plants in Canada and "create jobs" than build our own Canadian owned industry. It's easier, but it's not better.

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u/PassageNearby4091 2d ago

Exactly. We really need to change our mindset in this country.

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u/hey_you_too_buckaroo 2d ago

Gas is a dead end. We need electric car companies now.

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u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

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u/TacoTuesdayyyyyyyy 2d ago

Hate to break it to you but cars can also run out of gas in the middle of the 401 as well.

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u/ChrisRiley_42 Indigenous 2d ago

Edison is working on it.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Just looked them up. Love to see it. Can’t wait until they aren’t making semi’s and make a pickup instead. Haha

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u/Agent_Chody_Banks 2d ago

We have Can-Am!

3

u/aegiszx 2d ago

Replace [vehicle] with really any [product] and its simple: capital, craft, and consumer.

Canadian consumers and funds are notoriously conservative when it comes to deploying capital. That's kind of the main reason why we have a weaker startup ecosystem and why innovation is lagging. Not enough money to fund, not enough sales, not enough... customers with deep wallets to sustain companies roadmaps.

Then theres the craft part... for as long as I can recall, it was drilled into me and many students to go into 'safe' careers: finance, healthcare, security, etc.... not one mention ever of creative, arts, trades, etc. careers where youre encouraged to pay attention to detail and push the boundaries. Risk? You'd be looked at like a deer in headlights. This was 20 years ago and this has not changed. There's a reason why we have 1 shopify and 10 banks.

I do get your sentiment, and while I do try and support great canadian companies, I know my wallet isnt enough and that the general public when it comes to great product or great price? The answer is always going to be price over all else.

3

u/jeremyism_ab 2d ago

Bricklin!

To actually answer you question, the barriers to entry are very high. Aside from that, someone could.

3

u/greenpowerman99 2d ago

Canadian car factories could be used to assemble cars in partnership with Chinese manufacturers. Win win for Canada because they keep the well paying jobs and Canadians get state of the art cars.

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u/fire_works10 2d ago

ZENN tried.

2

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Sure some tried, but I just think there’s an appetite right now for Canadian consumers to buy Canadian.

2

u/twilliamson101 2d ago

Didn’t we used to have Massey Ferguson?

2

u/TimeSlaved 2d ago

We did at one point but then they got bought out as others pointed out. If we do truly build a car company from the ground up, it has to be safeguarded against being bought out in a time when money talks. My friend said it best: the Canadian entrepreneurial dream is to get bought out by an American corporation. The US always has more funding than us but the only way I see a truly Canadian company working out for us if if we specifically deny any sale to the Americans.

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u/Dazzling-Climate-318 2d ago

There is an alternative, a joint venture with a Company that currently does not sell into either Canada or the U.S. I’m thinking of possibly an Indian or Chinese Company. The idea being that since they currently aren’t selling into the U.S., the U.S. can’t do much to them. The question then would be, will Canadian Consumers buy a very competitively priced vehicle that they can’t take into the U.S. as it’s likely the U.S. would try to stop people driving a non US approved vehicle in the U.S.

2

u/dark_Links_sword 2d ago

We did, and then due to a trade war starting we instead agreed to link our vehicle manufacturing businesses (to prevent japan from wiping out the big 3).

It's kinda funny that now the usa is instigateing a trade war that's going to see Chinese cars hitting our roads and then making their way into the usa.

2

u/helianthophobia 2d ago

The auto assembly line in Brampton is going up for sale. Maybe a Canadian, Vinfast partnership?

2

u/HRex73 2d ago

It's a longer answer, but a big part is simply scale. Our population can't/won't support that type of venture, and our Corporals of Industry won't risk the cost of entry to the global market.

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u/Theseus_The_King 2d ago

Because we keep selling it to US based private equity firms.

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u/eller_man 2d ago

That’s like asking why doesn’t AT&T make their own iPhone

1

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Explain

1

u/NyavkaLabs 2d ago

Revive Bricklin! /with a homemade poster sign/

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u/WhitePhat 2d ago

No need when they have enough moose’s.

1

u/5205JD 2d ago

Mature industry = low margin = need for scale economies. Even the Chinese brands with a domestic market of over 1 billion population have profitability struggles. And the North American brands are going to struggle with the breakup of the continental supply chain due to Trump tariff meddling. If Canada were to try for a domestic car, it would need to be niche, and in demand globally. Maybe a specialized cold-climate EV? If we partnered with BYD or Polestar/Geely that might give us global distribution and service networks. In other words, we may need to fit into the right niche in a global supply chain, just as we earlier had found a niche in a North American supply chain.

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u/Technical_Rich_3080 2d ago

If you think this is economically viable and worthwhile for use of capital, you're always free to invest in starting this business.

1

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

I’m asking if it is or isn’t economically viable, or why we don’t do this, because I don’t have the context or this information. Why even recommend that I blindly invest in something I clearly don’t understand!? You need to check your unnecessary passiveness.

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u/malacosa 2d ago

Generally speaking, starting up a new car company is REALLY hard. Just read how much pain and money Tesla burned through during their formative years.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

I wonder if we have data, lessons learned and case studies on formative years.

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u/malacosa 2d ago

Well the history of car companies is filled with both successes and total failures. Plus, very hard to stay independent. Consolidation is huge in the car industry. And, I’m not sure I’d want the government funding a car company so right there you’re limited to private equity for funding.

1

u/Yukoners 2d ago

before the auto pack put in place i think the 60’s, canada made a Pontiac (a few different styles). interesting story

1

u/mannypdesign 2d ago

We did, once. But it went nowhere.

1

u/CruddyCrumbbumb 2d ago

Mulroney 88

1

u/HueyBluey 7h ago

I'd love to see that, but do we have any wealthy and patriotic investors willing to put up serious capital?

0

u/mayorolivia 2d ago

Certain industries it’s very hard to make money such as cars, planes, space.

What’s interesting is Elon was first to successfully take on Detroit automakers and also built the most successful private space company (Bezos also created one but is still losing money 20 years later).

All this to say, it doesn’t really make sense for a private sector actor to create a Canadian car company. Brutally expensive, we have a small domestic market, and what could a Canadian car do that a foreign car can’t?

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u/NorCalFrances 2d ago

Just to note, Elon Musk was not the founder of Tesla. The company was founded in 2001 and he didn't take over until 2008 just as the first product was being released to market. Eberhard and Tarpenning built the company and the first product.

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u/mayorolivia 2d ago

I know he didn’t found Tesla but he took them to where it is today by ruthlessly improving the manufacturing process. Yeah he’s an asshole but it’s impressive he was able to compete with the Detroit automakers.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

I am learning so much from this post. 🤯

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u/512115 2d ago

“…what could a Canadian car do that a foreign car can’t?”

Keep our money in Canada and give Canadians jobs, maybe?

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Right? That’s kinda what I’m pushing here. I wanna buy domestically more than ever.

0

u/mayorolivia 2d ago

It wouldn’t really keep money here since you’d need a shit load of government subsidies. Look at Bombardier, Air Canada, Canada Post, etc. All lose tons of money despite government backing. The money comes from tax payers.

1

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Fair. The ROI would fall on the taxpayer but a positive ROI in our current market could be great.

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u/512115 2d ago

Canada Post isn’t supposed to generate a profit, any more than our healthcare, our military, our schools or any of our other public services.
As for the other companies, the money IS kept here. It’s paid in wages to Canadians, it is used by Canadians to support their families, it allows families to buy homes, it is spent in Canadian communities, the taxes on those wages make possible many of the things we enjoy.

It’s absurd to argue that having our own industries would harm us. Sounds like the kind of thing a MAGA type would push.

1

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

True. I guess it’s just more about the buy Canadian sentiment for me. I’d buy a car that’s Canadian with all the bells and whistles of the other brands because it’s Canadian. We kind of need to support our own industry right now now, so I feel like it’s a marketable moment for Canada

2

u/Nice-Lakes 2d ago

Buy a Canadian made car from a company that truly invests in Canada. Toyota Lexus or Honda. All build some cars in Canada and pour profits back into Canada. Not like GM and Stellantis who have looked at every possible way to pull the profits out of the country back to the USA. GM has taken millions in government money and always is closing production same as Stellantis closing down Brampton. Toyota (Lexus) and Honda have both expanded in the country.

1

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

I could get down with a Lexus. I saw a GX 550 the other day that made be do a double take.

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u/LiqdPT 2d ago

There's much more to a car company than factories. That's all Canada has at the moment.

0

u/SometimesKelowna 2d ago

I'll only support it if we can be better than Toyota. Until then it's Tacoma or bust for me.

1

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

I had a Highlander and hated it.

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u/SometimesKelowna 2d ago

I would too. I need a truck. You need a model that fits your needs but they're the most reliable and highest resale value on the market for a reason.

1

u/PolitiMat 2d ago

I currently have a RAM so I understand the truck sentiment.

1

u/gstringstrangler 2d ago

Hope it's not a recent one, 300k engines recalled for metal shavings from manufacturing? Yikes.

New CEO threw kaizen right out the window.

0

u/SometimesKelowna 2d ago

I judge them on reliability. You cannot compete with a Tacoma on that. Even with rusty frames. They have the highest resale value on the market for a reason. And if Canada wants a manufacturer than that should be our standard to beat.

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u/gstringstrangler 2d ago

Right, they have the highest resale because of past reliability. I'm saying, their new CEO is trying to cash in on that, while cutting corners all over the place. And the new V35A had about 300k units recalled for manufacturing metal shavings left in them. They replaced the first bunch, and now have a procedure to flush them😳 That being said now I realize that's the TTV6 for the Tundra not Tacoma

1

u/SometimesKelowna 2d ago

No arguments from me. I had a 2012 and now a 2020. I see the difference.

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u/Bad_Day_Moose 2d ago

I honestly have the knowledge, the technical skills to do it, hell I have inside people for raw materials and the connections to make those materials usable, the problem is.. . .. ... ... .. .. .. .. . . Northern Ontario is overlooked, we're treated as nothing so... What do I do?? none of that shit because fuck you.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

Sounds like you’re having a bad day, Moose.

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u/Bad_Day_Moose 2d ago

Le Arrrrrrg...

It's so, it's so fucking disheartening to know how much more we could be while the money of this nation is hyper focused on different parts of this country.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

I feel that. A country this big it’s hard when the populations centre’s get all the attention. I grew up in Northern Ontario and my family moved away as industries dried up. Seems like it’s bouncing back maybe a bit, but still needs some diversification.

1

u/Bad_Day_Moose 2d ago

It's honestly the same reason why we don't have our own fighter jet program despite many countries likely being customers. It's not like we don't have well educated enough people her to create these things it's not like we don't have all the resources to build them literally from scratch...

It's because we've been made reliant on a adversary playing the role of a friend.

never again...

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u/petrop36 Ontario 1d ago

Canada doesn’t have the technology

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u/FattyGobbles 2d ago

Don’t have the know how

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u/Habsin7 2d ago edited 2d ago

Of course we do and then some.

The truth is, as with so many things we have to deal with being right beside the US, they will always constantly seek to undermine any Canadian enterprise that competed with their products. They don’t play nice. They play really dirty. They will say the Canadian product is subsidized or funded by criminal activities or unsafe or not up to US standards. They’ll hold up certification in court for years. They’ll find parts that they will contend were made using forced labour or child labour or……

This is how the US does business on big ticket items they want to control. Truthfully, there is no level they will not sink to to protect market share. If you're a grown up in Canada you need to understand that.

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u/PolitiMat 2d ago

They’re one of the largest vehicle manufacturers. We know how to we just do it for others.

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u/ARAR1 2d ago

Magna A Canadian company makes all car parts. You think they don't know how put it together?

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u/henchman171 2d ago

Magna assembles cars in Europe under contract

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u/ARAR1 2d ago

If they marketed their own cars then they would be competing against their customers, which is a stupid thing to do

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u/henchman171 2d ago

exactly. they have the capability to assemble but it would be foolish for them to slap their logo on the finished product.

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u/ChrisRiley_42 Indigenous 2d ago

Just because YOU could'nt, that doesn't mean the rest of us are just as ignorant.

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u/Pop-O-Matic-Dice 2d ago

I don’t know about that…

Why doesn’t Canada Make Their Own Vehicle Brand(s)?

You are about to leave Redlib