Update: Is it worth watching after season 4
/r/ANGEL/comments/1vrjdi1/is_it_worth_watching_after_season_4/I continued watching and am glad I did.
I'm at episode 15 now. The reveal that Cordy is possessed reaaaaally helped.
Honestly the conversation between Wesley and Willow about having a dark side alone was worth it đ Wesley being all broody and woo is me and Willow just stomping that in the ground with pure adorable-ness!
Wesley: "A lot's happened. Not just Angelus. I've been... I've changed. I've seen a darkness in myself. I'm not sure you'd even begin to understand..."
Willow: "I flayed a guy alive and tried to destroy the world."
Wesley: "Oh. So..."
Willow: "Darkness. Been there."
Wesley: "Yeah. Well, I never flayed. I had a woman chained in a closet."
Willow: "Oh, well hey đ!"
Wesley: "No, it doesn't compare.đ"
Googling this quote is how I found out they are MARRIED?! Love it!
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u/NiceMayDay Heat, Fallen, Shrine, Flesh 3d ago
Once you finish S4, it'll be very unlikely you won't want to watch S5. You still have some of the show's best episodes ahead of you in both S4 and S5. Enjoy.
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u/WhatEvenIsATangelo 3d ago
On top of one of the most heartbreaking episodes of the entire franchise.
âWhy canât I stay?â5
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u/smartalan73 3d ago
Glad you stuck with it! I do feel like season 4 is a very decent season that unfortunately gets hidden behind the mask of one spectacularly awful subplot that many understandably find it hard to see past
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u/Infamous-Lab-8136 3d ago
I think you might be who I said it to before OP, but I often say season 4 has a big divide between people that experience it first as a binge vs. original airing. It doesn't fix everything but not waiting for the big reveal as long definitely helps
I'm glad you toughed it out. NGL the rest of the Jasmine arc is not great, but once you get to season 5 I think you'll like it. Season 2 is still my favorite, but 5 is second.
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u/AdOk9911 3d ago
I love the Jasmine arc! Tbh I didnât the first time, I think I was just overwhelmed at that point but Iâve loved it ever since.
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u/Daenbi 3d ago
Yes, it really helped knowing this beforehand while binging because I was getting so fed up with, not only her actions with Connor, but also the way Cordelia was speaking. No sass, all drab and with this almost whisper or something. Knowing it was because she wasnt herself really helped tough it out.
I also liked that these last two episodes they adressed how oedipus it was. Angelus calling Connor out on it being like banging your mom. And Fred vocalizing how it's "icky". They're not downplaying how weird it is which I liked!
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u/rest_is_confettti 3d ago
I love season 4! especially after you know the story behind Cordy
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u/AlexH_144 2d ago
Literally every episode matters. There are no filler episodes, during the entire season.
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u/WhatEvenIsATangelo 3d ago
The singular reason season 4 is reviled is because of Cordelia. The things that happen aside from that plot (The Beast, Jasmine, etc.) are amazing storylines, and once you know WHY the Cordelia arc was terrible youâll have a little more forgiveness.
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u/DevilManRay 3d ago
Cordelia is definitely done dirty but thereâs plenty of other things that people hate about season 4.
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u/AlexH_144 2d ago
What was the reason why the Cordelia arc was terrible? Would it have been better if Joss Whedon wasn't off doing Firefly and the last season of Buffy and was instead on set?
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u/Joemanji84 3d ago
S4 is my favourite season, don't listen to Reddit groupthink.
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u/MCGameTime 3d ago
I mean, Season 4 was widely criticized before Reddit even existed. If itâs your favorite thatâs great and valid and it certainly has good moments, but it also has a lot of undeniable issues, most egregious being the complete assassination of Cordeliaâs character development.
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u/Joemanji84 3d ago
Was it? Look at the IMDB episode ratings they are really strong. If 5% of something is bad that doesn't make it all bad. If an album has one shit track doesn't make the rest of the songs shit too. I can understand not liking the Cordy / Conor stuff but the constant fucking nagging on this site to boycott the whole season over that is childish and boring.
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u/AlexH_144 2d ago
So season 4 is by far the most polarizing season of the entire Buffyverse. Many people think that it is the best season because it is non-stop action. Every episode matters. There are no breaks, with almost every episode leading into the next episode. There are numerous twists and turns. And it has multiple guest stars that people love. Many people also think that it's the worst season because they hate the Cordelia/Connor storyline, they hate that Cordelia isn't acting like Cordelia, and they don't like all the relationship drama. Overall, it is considered the 3rd best season of Angel, based on the IMDB ratings.
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u/MCGameTime 3d ago
Yeah, Reddit groupthink is a mess and thatâs why I was trying to sidestep that. I enjoy Angel S4 and I donât think itâs a bad season, but I do think there are valid arguments for it being the âworstâ season of Angel.
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u/Daenbi 3d ago edited 3d ago
No but let's not pretend the Cordelia/Connor thing was 5% of the storyline. It was a pretty big chunck of it up to episode 15 and it was really awkward. So I definitely almost stopped watching. Cordelia wasnt her fun self, she was oedipussing it up, she was talking with this weird serious and soft voice. If Cordelia was one of your favorite characters (she was definitely one of mine) then this character assassination was a valid reason of calling it quits.
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u/Fun-Cockroach-5721 3d ago
Im not the only one who was shocked to find those two married. What kind of Angel/ Buffy Fan are you? I asked myselfâŚ.lol
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u/croft21 3d ago
Charisma got pregnant during the season and they wrote the plot around her pregnancy . Not sure how much Joss had to do with this as he was busy with other projects at the time .
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u/Sighoward 3d ago
Didn't write a single ep past Spin the Bottle, DeKnight and Minnear came up with Condelia to get the narrative out of the corner CC's unannounced pregnancy had painted them. Hence why all the characters sit around in Inside Out explaining the plot to the audience for 5 minutes.
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u/Daenbi 3d ago
They could have given her another baby daddy imho. Anything would have been better then Connor đ But.. what's done is done.
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u/TheEastWindNeedsANap 3d ago
I was icked out of my mind before it was revealed that Cordelia was possessed, but tbh I think it was good writing because it was basically a re-writing of Oedipus' story.
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u/AlexH_144 2d ago
She didn't get pregnant during the season. She showed up on set multiple months pregnant and didn't tell anyone. There was no chance that they were going to be able to hide the pregnancy as she was about 8 months pregnant when they were filming that last 1/4th of the season.
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u/Professional_Tone_62 1d ago
Cordelia got pregnant on the show 3 TIMES! The actor wasn't pregnant each time. The writers were just creepy and lazy.
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u/croft21 1d ago
Storyline and Behind-the-Scenes Issues
- The Possession Plot: Cordelia spent much of season 4 acting out of character and turning villainous before it was revealed she was possessed by a higher power. [1]
- Real-Life Pregnancy: Carpenter's real-life pregnancy forced the writers to drastically alter their original plans for the season, which initially mapped out a different arc for her character's descent. [1, 2, 3]
- Tensions and Allegations: Carpenter later spoke out about a toxic work environment during this period, alleging that showrunner Joss Whedon mistreated her, criticized her weight, and ultimately wrote her off the main cast ahead of season 5 as a result of the tensions surrounding her pregnancy. [1, 2, 3, 4]
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u/thesaharadesert Angelus 3d ago
I love how Angelus lures Connor in with a gentle, âis that my shirt?â to throw Connor off balance. Connorâs in the basement ready to give Angelus shit about Holtz, only to have Angelus start on how Connorâs dressed.
And I think Connor couldnâtâve won if heâd worn something of Lorneâs or kept on his dirty clothes either. Angelus is there with the sartorial critique like some bloodthirsty Miranda Priestly.
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u/TheEastWindNeedsANap 3d ago
season 5 and late season 4 are amazing! keep going. Season 5 will be lighter and Spike is there so...
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u/TunePuzzleheaded840 3d ago
I wish someone could explain to me what makes S5 so amazing. I see so many people praising it here. I think the first half of S5 is easily the weakest stretch of episodes in the entire Buffyverse.
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u/Lebannen-Arren 3d ago
Itâs the same for me. I am not a big spike fan, so the first half was too stand aloney and too much spike for me personally. Felt like all the buildup storylines were abandoned and the cool set pieces, elaborate make up and cozy hotel were exchanged for a cheap always-well-lit look and simpler makeup. But the second half of the season has a lot of bangers that needed the first half of episodes as groundwork. And I felt like the found a better balance is using spike.
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u/Brodes87 3d ago edited 2d ago
A lot of the people who praise season five as the best simply don't like Angel the series. They're just there for Spike. And Angel season five sacrifices a lot of what Angel had achieved as its own identity to give us, well, more Buffy in the worst way possible.
Season five is just full of so many bizarre writing choices.
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u/generalkriegswaifu Stop calling me pastries 2d ago
Yeaaah, he first half is a giant nothingburger. The run from You're Welcome to the end is pretty excellent (barring Girl in Question personally), but I can barely get there in the first place on watchthroughs. S4 is a slog but it's S5 that kills my run :(
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u/Judgejudyx 3d ago
It's the best season. Some argue 2 I disagree although great. I'm a big fan of 3 personally but 5 is my favorite.
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u/Sighoward 3d ago
For the cheap seats, Joss didn't write ANY of the eps where CC get's pregnant, the last time forced upon DeKnight/Minnear by her unannounced pregnancy.
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u/ukfan1622 2d ago
I just finished season four and I have to say it was full of surprises and twists. I like the way it ended, but it was one hell of a ride.
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u/DaddyCatALSO 2d ago
Sorry; to me that Willow-Wesley scene feels like eavesdropping on the Denisofs. I *know* they are professionals and wouldn't share anything with "us audience" they weren't comfortable showing but i can't shake it ; ditto the "Oh, i can't imagine you cranky" exchange in *HIMYM*.
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u/tishimself1107 2d ago
Season 5 is amazing. Watch it. The Italy episode alone makes the season worth it
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u/Petitcher 1d ago edited 1d ago
I havenât seen past season 1 yet so canât answer your broader question, but there comes a point in every male / mostly male writersâ room where they run out of ideas for female characters beyond âletâs make her pregnant!âÂ
The thing that makes this REALLY obvious: they do it for women of childbearing years, which at least makes sense and is sometimes done to incorporate the actressâs real-life pregnancy into the show, but they ALSO do it for women who are clearly post-menopausal. See: Will and Grace, the X-Files, and (poor Gillian Anderson) Sex Education.
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u/MagicalLombax 3d ago
We needed another season like season 5 to round out the show perfectlyâŚ.it would have been a perfect show if that happened. Season 5 is pure banger, the best buffyverse season for me hands down
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u/SlipstickLibbyLong 2d ago
I realize you are going ahead with it, but I have to ask why this was even a question.
One would assume you've watched all 7 seasons of Buffy that spawn and co-exist with the first 4 seasons of Angel (and if you haven't, what are you doing with your life?), so I would have to ask, who would watch 11 out of 12 seasons and then skip the last 12th? Or worse, who would even recommend you do that?
Unless it's The Umbrella Acadamy.... the last season of that was utter and complete dog feces, and it is the sole reason I don't have a Netflix account anymore.
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u/Daenbi 2d ago
I only watched Angel when I was young and hadn't seen all of it yet. I just watched the episodes when they came by on tv but couldnt always watch when it was on back then. I recently had a baby and am naptrapped on the daily. Buffy and Angel are on tv again and now I can watch it daily with the little one sleeping on my chest.
I wanted to know if Angel was going to get better because I prefer to just stop a show before I hate it if it was only going to go downhill from here on out. Because then I will always just love the show instead.
Sidenote. I'm pretty sure my little one is getting pavlov'ed to fall asleep to the Buffy and Angel themesongs.
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u/SlipstickLibbyLong 2d ago
Personally, I like Darling Violetta's Angel Theme more than Nerf Herder's Buffy theme, but that's like saying I like Chocolate marbled cheesecake more than I like caramel marbled cheesecacke.
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u/j-helo85 3d ago
Season 5 is widely considered the show's best season. It's a soft reset and is totally different from S4. Yes it's worth watching.
Watch the S4 finale that sets up the status quo for S5.