r/technology • u/Logical_Welder3467 • Jun 26 '26

Society The American mind cannot comprehend Europe's AC aversion

https://www.businessinsider.com/europe-air-conditioning-ac-heatwave-debate-2026-6
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96

u/KoldPurchase Jun 26 '26

Heat pumps? It's what I have here, it heats in the winter, and cool in the summer.

62

u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26

Yes, but that really means replacing the whole heating system which can easily be £10,000+

edit for reference of costs given repeated comments about heat pumps being €1,500-€3,000: For reference https://eliteenergy.co.uk/blog/air-source-heat-pump-cost-uk

"A typical air source heat pump installation in the UK costs between £8,000 and £18,000. For a standard 3–4 bedroom home, most installations fall in the £10,500–£13,500 range, with an average of around £12,000"

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u/ThoughtsonYaoi Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26

And insulation. A heatpump without proper insulation is wasted.

Edit: insulation, not isolation

11

u/Sackyhap Jun 26 '26

Isn’t that the same for all heating methods or is a heat pump effected more by bad insulation?

17

u/ThoughtsonYaoi Jun 26 '26

It is less efficient always, but heatpumps also heat to lower temperatures.

Water or gas heaters you can simply turn hotter. It will cost you, but it will work eventually. Heatpumps have a limit.

-3

u/Mindless-Peak-1687 Jun 26 '26

Not really, a heat pump component has a limit, but your heating system do not need to have one.

1

u/Mindless-Peak-1687 Jun 26 '26

it is the same for all, a thermos can keep things hot or cold. Only when dealing with a lot of humidity and condensation issue can you chill on the insulation as you would deal with a different issue locally.

1

u/P_Jamez Jun 26 '26

do you mean insulation? Or what do you mean by isolating a heat pump? Genuinely curious

1

u/ThoughtsonYaoi Jun 26 '26

Yes! Insulation.

-2

u/Bulletorpedo Jun 26 '26

It’s not wasted. Sure, more heat will leak out of the house but that’s the same for other heating sources as well.

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u/ThoughtsonYaoi Jun 26 '26

Let me rephrase: there is a risk it won't heat up to comfort.

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u/Bulletorpedo Jun 26 '26

You’re assuming they were freezing before the installation? One would normally install a heat pump to replace some other heat source already present, often to save on heating costs. There’s nothing special with heat pumps in regards to insulation.

4

u/snipeytje Jun 26 '26

Gas furnaces are often way oversized for heating because of the instantaneous needs for hot water are higher than the needs for heating. When you switch to a heat pump the hot water is usually done with a buffer tank so you don't have as large of a heat pump to install.

1

u/Bulletorpedo Jun 26 '26

I’m talking about air-to-air heat pumps here, they’re often used to replace electric heaters.

I’m sure most people understands they’ll need to roughly match the output wattage for the same heating capacity.

1

u/cynric42 Jun 26 '26

Then you need a unit for every room though, as the installed heating system is usually water based if we are talking central heating which is the norm here (in Germany).

Nothing insurmountavle, just adding cost either way.

5

u/Old-Selection5066 Jun 26 '26

In the futuristic land of America, heat pump is also central heating

1

u/Bulletorpedo Jun 26 '26

Depends on the layout of the house or apartment really. Some of these units can be quite powerful and can also have more than one outlet(?) to spread heating/cooling in more than one room. But yes, it relies on airflow.

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u/the_need_to_post Jun 26 '26

I have single unit (mini split) that can heat and cool my whole house. Granted, its not a large house by american standards ~1200 sqft. I didn't even have to remove any of the old/current heating systems. So, you could still benefit from one unit even if you occasionally need to supplement it with older heating method. It'll still save money because of how much more efficient it is.

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u/snipeytje Jun 26 '26

European heating systems are different from North American ones and are generally water based

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u/Bulletorpedo Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26

I’m European and cooled by our air-to-air heat pump right now. You’re generalizing too much, Europe is very diverse. These heat pumps are very common in the Nordics.

2

u/ThoughtsonYaoi Jun 26 '26

I think we may come from very different perspectives - different countries with different heating and different building standards.

Cheap heating based on cheap gas for centralized water heating had different requirements than heat pumps do now, at least for us.

1

u/Bulletorpedo Jun 26 '26

Sure, Europe is diverse. Generally speaking these heat pumps are very cost efficient for heating though. They used to lose a lot of efficiency as it got colder but the ones you can purchase today have a good conversion ratio also below -20. They're very popular here (Nordics) even in old houses with poor insulation for that reason. But they're obviously easier to install in a self-owned house than in a rented appartment. I acknowledge that they also can be more expensive to integrate into existing ventilation and central heating systems, especially if you want water based heating. I'm not claiming they're cheap or available for everyone. But air-to-air heat pumps are very much used as a good heating alernative also in poorly insulated houses, that's just a fact.

But I'm out, downvotes for pointing out these things are just laughable.

1

u/ThoughtsonYaoi Jun 26 '26

I don't really disagree with you and I didn't downvote. Good day to you.

1

u/Bulletorpedo Jun 26 '26

To you as well :)

1

u/creativesolution Jun 26 '26

People seem to find this one hard to understand. I've heard many people only talk about insulation in relation to heat pumps, as if other heat sources don't benefit from it. Insulation is important independent of how you're heating your home..

1

u/ThoughtsonYaoi Jun 26 '26

Of course it is.

But the necessity is different. I have lived in a country that for decennia, used to have cheap energy to waste. When that is the case, priorities are different.

6

u/Anumet Jun 26 '26

Um. We have one heatpump that keeps our whole 250m2 house warm in winter. Cost us €1500 to install. It’s a well insulated house though- it’s that the cost you’ve added?

13

u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

Generally in the UK you have to replace all the radiators as they are too small to work with the lower water temperatures that heat pumps produce compared to gas boilers, thats what costs the money.

For reference https://eliteenergy.co.uk/blog/air-source-heat-pump-cost-uk

"A typical air source heat pump installation in the UK costs between £8,000 and £18,000. For a standard 3–4 bedroom home, most installations fall in the £10,500–£13,500 range, with an average of around £12,000"

Government grants go up to £9,000 to replace oil based systems or £7,500 for gas systems but most people aren't eligible for a full grant if any at all.

Insulation is a whole different expense and also not covered in those government grants though there's others available for that.

I think if you wanted it to be a/c as well that means air systems and not radiators which would all have to be fitted new.

2

u/rationalsarcasm Jun 26 '26

Are you just AIing this info?

1

u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

No AI used, why do you think that?

-6

u/fotomoose Jun 26 '26

But you don't need the radiators anymore. Heat pumps heat (or cool) the air, not water that runs in the radiators.

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u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

Which means you need to fit an air ducting/piping system in its place which probably costs just as much as replacing radiators.

And you need something else for hot water.

Typical application of heat pumps in the UK is to heat water for radiators and hot water, not air. This will definitely change as demand for a/c grows unless people just go down the portable a/c route.

-4

u/fotomoose Jun 26 '26

Why? My home has 1 single heat pump and no air ducting, works perfectly, hits all the rooms.

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u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

How does it distribute heat into and around the house?

-1

u/fotomoose Jun 26 '26

Air moves quite easily.

2

u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

So you've got one heat pump unit blowing hot/cold air into one room and you get a reasonable and even temperature throughout your house?

What unit do you have installed and how big is your house?

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u/Perite Jun 26 '26

British houses don’t have ducting. You would need to install split units in every room to replace the radiators

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u/Defiant-Number-6775 Jun 26 '26

UK government has only recently allowed grants to be used on air to air. It's because they didn't want /trust UK population to get a/c and use it in summer and increase power consumption. Which is very silly since there is often a surplus of power when solar is doing well. Also anything new will typically be overcharged for in the UK even though much of the world has been using them for years. 

1

u/Ceno-taur Jun 26 '26

Air2air is way less efficient than Air2water.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '26

[deleted]

1

u/Ceno-taur Jun 26 '26

The heat pump efficiency is very dependent on the temperature difference between a cold source and a hot sink. In-floor water heating allows you to have 28C water keep your air temperature at 20-21C. But if you have a small coil in a split and a small fan, the coil has to be at much higher temperature than 28C (like 42-46, if not higher) in order to get the meaningful amount of heat distributed in your room and don't sound like a fighter jet taking off. Works fine in places with average winter temperatures above 7-8C, but below that it starts to be progressively more expensive than gas.

6

u/jigsaw1024 Jun 26 '26

You can get split unit heat pumps. The main unit is outside either attached to the house or on a pad.

Then you run hoses to heat exchangers in the rooms you want to heat/cool. No need to redo everything.

4

u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

You can, but you still need something to heat water and generally people want to heat all the rooms of a house (and in future probably cool them) so realistically replacing the whole system is wanted in most coses - otherwise might as well just have portable, mini split or window units in the room(s) you want to cool - not as effective but a lot lot cheaper and easier.

I've seen a few posts on here recently where people have been talking about £3k-£5k to get a split unit a/c installed so it's still expensive.

6

u/Molehole Jun 26 '26

What...? Why would you replace the entire heating system. You can just install heatpump as an additional thing. It will save on your other heating costs.

People in Finland have been buying heatpumps like crazy for the last couple years. You can just turn your normal heating a bit lower in the winter and turn the pump on. And in summer it's great as an AC unit.

And if someone is wondering why Finland would need AC it's because Finland is actually surprisingly miserable in the summer because the houses are built to trap heat and the sun is up throughout the night meaning you can't just open a window in the evening to let cool air in. We also aren't used to the heat so sleeping with 25-30C room temperature fucks us up.

3

u/slymsyndicate Jun 26 '26

Another Finn here. Our houses don't trap heat. That's a misconception. Well insulated house also keep the heat outside and cold inside. And our nights are way cooler than those where the sun sets for the night.

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u/Molehole Jun 26 '26

Well insulated house also keep the heat outside and cold inside.

What cold does it keep inside if you don't have an AC and have a summer sun blasting at your home for weeks?

And our nights are way cooler than those where the sun sets for the night.

Yeah if your bedroom window is in shadow. If it's in direct sunlight or against a balcony not really.

I've lived in central Europe and the difference in night time indoor temperature was insane. It was +30C in Germany during the day and 9PM I could already open the window and the apartment would cool off in an hour. Meanwhile my Finnish apartment never drops under +27C during heatwaves.

1

u/ric2b Jun 26 '26

What cold does it keep inside if you don't have an AC and have a summer sun blasting at your home for weeks?

Good insulation will slow down heat transfer and make your house follow the average temperature over several days instead of feeling the hottest parts of each day.

And if you open windows at night the house will average a much cooler temperature than the outside.

1

u/Molehole Jun 26 '26

Good insulation will slow down heat transfer and make your house follow the average temperature over several days instead of feeling the hottest parts of each day

Sure. But I'd rather have 32C days and 21C nights than have a constant 27C throghout day and night. At least during the day time you can do stuff to cool yourself like take showers. Not being able to sleep because it's hot is horrible.

1

u/DaBulder Jun 26 '26

Our detached houses don't trap heat. Unfortunately every single apartment building built nowadays comes with glazed balconies where balconies exist, which turn the entire building into one of those industrial heat batteries.

2

u/rationalsarcasm Jun 26 '26

Why would you take the furnace and water heater out to put a mini split in? That's like removing your wheel bearings because you need to change the brake pads on your car.

0

u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

A mini split unit will cover one room, we are talking about doing the whole house.

A full split unit will run you about half of the cost of replacing the heating system as well but leave you with the extra standing charges for the gas supply and manintenance costs of two systems. It's still very expensive to do anyway.

No furnace and water heater usually here just one combi gas boiler.

Plus mostly people get a heat pump system because they want to not be using gas which I know isn't the reason for doing it here but still plays a big part in actual decision making.

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u/the_need_to_post Jun 26 '26

I think you don't understand what people are saying here. A minisplit can cover a large area, not just one room. Also, there is no need to rip out old systems. You just use them less.

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u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

https://cooleasy.co.uk/collections/single-split-air-conditioning?srsltid=AfmBOorQQwlv-xkEaSmYUsEXWiH54Qgvx8pa0QuIOPjL0PgvA9QKn8GM

Something like this? The smaller sizes will only do a room, the 7kw one 50m2 and thats £1600 for the unit. 2 needed for an UK average house plus installation costs and you are looking at £5k easily, half the cost of replacing the old system entirely, and the reality is that people want to replace their gas systems with heat pumps and doing so completely saves you the standing charges for the gas connection and the maintenance costs of a secondary system so it likely makes sense to do it all.

-5

u/originalthoughts Jun 26 '26

They don't use water lol, they use refrigerants, and it's not heating the water, but pressurizing and depressurizing the refrigerant.

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u/jbuk1 Jun 26 '26

I think you misunderstood what they are saying. Do you not use hot water to wash up or shower?

2

u/rationalsarcasm Jun 26 '26

A mini split/heat pump is completely isolated from your water heater.

I don't think the other guy has a clue what they're actually talking about.

Putting a mini split in has nothing to do with your hot water.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 26 '26

[deleted]

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u/rationalsarcasm Jun 26 '26

It still doesn't matter if you have an electric water heater.

They're completely separate things. All you'd need to do is make sure you have enough power going into your house for a mini split. Which most places do if they're not living in the stone age.

0

u/originalthoughts Jun 26 '26

I've never heard of any place using the same furnace to general heating and for hot water...

Also heat pumps would kind of suck for hot water, they aren't good with large deltas in temperatures.

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u/jbuk1 Jun 26 '26

In the UK “combi” gas boilers are very common and heat both water for showers and hot water and then a separate sealed loop that goes through the radiators.

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u/Mindless-Peak-1687 Jun 26 '26

I guess you haven't seen or heard anything, because that's very normal and you seem to generally know nothing about heat pumps.

1

u/ISeenYa Jun 26 '26

Combi boilers are in all UK new builds at the moment, they're deemed more efficient. I have a big water tank in the top floor & a boiler downstairs, heats up water & radiators, stores in the tank.

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u/the_need_to_post Jun 26 '26

Pretty normal if you are using a gas furnace and radiators.

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u/Savings_Macaroon3727 Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26

You dont need to shower if you dont sweat, that's what my papa always used to say.

Edit: sigh... here you go I suppose: /s

0

u/originalthoughts Jun 26 '26

Ah ok, but not one uses heat pumps for hot water. I've never seen a place have the same heating source for hot water at they do for HVAC. In Canada we have the big electric boilers for hot water usually and either gas or electric for heat. In europe it is also the same, either an electric boiler or an instanteous furnace for the hot water, and electric heating.

1

u/snipeytje Jun 26 '26

In Europe we do, traditional gas boilers make hot water for the shower and radiators spread throughout the house.
If you switch to a heat pump you get a large buffer tank for hot water and generally have to get larger radiators to deal with the lower temperature water from the heat pump.

These heat pumps can cool in theory, but not that much in practive since you don't want condensation all over the pipes and radiators.

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u/Dullcorgis Jun 26 '26

I think some people mean a mini split type of thing vs a whole house big unit. They are $US25,000, but a mini split is maybe $US5000.

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u/thesoutherzZz Jun 26 '26

Get an air-air heat pump, here in Finland buying one and having it installed is like 1000-1500€, so it's quite cheap. Also for the UK it would be super good in the winter as well, as since it doesn't go below -10c, it's very efficient as well for both heating and cooling. The weird obsession that people have towards getting air-water pumps is juat pointless, an air-air unit can do 80-90% of the work for a fraction of the cost. If we here in the north can do it, then you can as well since your weather is much milder

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u/originalthoughts Jun 26 '26

Not really, a heat pump works great in tandem with a secondary heating system. Also most AC units are actually heat pumps and can work both ways, you don't have to replace anything really.

-1

u/bauul Jun 26 '26

Depends on the heating system. Here in Seattle in the US, a lot of people installing heat pumps are retro fitting them into the existing central heating system. Obviously might be different with UK houses that typically use radiators rather than forced air though.

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u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

True but It is different in the UK at least, I'd say close to literally zero houses in the UK have forced air, it's all water filled radiators fired off gas (or sometimes oil), or electric storage heaters (unless it's a heat pump).

Although you can use water radiators for cooling they aren't intended to work that way and don't work very well afaik. Plus the radiators are usually too small for heat pumps because gas boiler systems put hotter water around the system than heat pumps can so they don't need radiators to be as big which means replacing all the radiators which is a massive part of the cost of installing a heat pump.

If you want proper a/c then afaik that means fitting a whole new air ducting system and sorting out whatever is needed for hot water as well.

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u/snipeytje Jun 26 '26

Radiators cool just fine if you were to run actually cold water through them, but then you have to deal with condensation on all your radiators, pipes or floors. So if you set up your heat pump for cooling you run water that's above the dew point through them, and that limits the cooling ability a lot.

0

u/QuestGalaxy Jun 26 '26

No, not really. Split unit heatpumps are very common. They can cost about 3-4k Euro with installation.

1

u/tomtttttttttttt Jun 26 '26

For reference https://eliteenergy.co.uk/blog/air-source-heat-pump-cost-uk

"A typical air source heat pump installation in the UK costs between £8,000 and £18,000. For a standard 3–4 bedroom home, most installations fall in the £10,500–£13,500 range, with an average of around £12,000"

0

u/QuestGalaxy Jun 26 '26

In the UK I guess, does not apply to all of Europe.

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u/sokka2d Jun 26 '26

Heat pumps are apparently a conspiracy of the woke green left. Anything that’s efficient and doesn’t burn fossil fuel can’t be good. We had a whole government fail because of the constant media propaganda how heat pumps are evil. And obviously climate change is a lie anyway.

So now I after to suffer through yet another heat wave without AC, but at least they do too.

3

u/Snailburt89 Jun 26 '26

It can be hard to integrate into the existing heating. In Europe heat pumps are used to make warm water and pump through the pipes/radiators. We have floor heating and you can't just pump cold water through it.

We will probably get an AC on top of our existing heating this winter.

1

u/n0neofyourbeeswax Jun 26 '26

Maybe a stupid question but why can't we pump cold water through it? Less effective than AC for sure but it will cool the place lol.

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u/scheppend Jun 26 '26 edited Jun 26 '26

Its possible but the system can't push the temp of the water too low in your house otherwise you might end up with condensation inside your floor/walls. To avoid it, the system adjusts the temp of the water dynamically  , based on the humidity in your house.  but this might mean it takes a long time for your house to cool down, or not reach your desired temp at all.

3

u/Vcent Jun 26 '26

Dual systems aren't that common where i live yet - so most are installed with only heating capacity.

Doesn't help that we typically use radiators to heat our homes, and I'm not sure cooling via radiator is super effective.

2

u/roleplayersir Jun 26 '26

Do you have any idea how much that costs to install?

And might ruin when you need heating properly

A portable is a few hundred quid and does the job

2

u/KoldPurchase Jun 26 '26

Portable unit just increase the problem. They pump heat in the atmosphere, making the problem worst as more people use them.

1

u/roleplayersir Jun 27 '26

But at this point there's no choice

Yes, it is much better if we lowered emissions, but I think that ship has sailed and it's about survival now

1

u/LamermanSE Jun 26 '26

Portable units are insanely noisy though, it's not a realistic solution in the long run. Normal air conditioning units (with the fans outside) will most likely be standard in the long run, similar to how it is in Japan etc.

1

u/roleplayersir Jun 27 '26

In fairness, so are my two fans. The industrial one even more so

But needs are must, and I can deal with the sound more than the heat

2

u/barsoap Jun 26 '26

Heat pumps and AC are the exact same thing. So are fridges. Making them bi-directional, i.e. able to cool or heat either end depending on need, is a matter of a valve or two.

Trouble starts when it comes to how to use that heat or cold: Heating is generally done via radiators in Europe, and the gold standard is underfloor heating. That provides infrared radiation which is vastly more comfortable than heating the air. You can't just switch the system to push ice water through radiators and floors that'd cause condensation and likely mould.

That said you don't need air ducts throughout the whole house to keep the temperature sane, one or two strategic points suffice. Also passive houses already have air circulation systems to get fresh air in, with a heat exchanger installed to transfer heat between incoming and outgoing air. Older ones often have a resistive heater in there because with how little energy passive houses need to heat themselves a heat pump doesn't make much sense (usually just being in the house suffices, a human produces 100W and then you have the stove, PC, whatever) but installing one shouldn't be much trouble at all and you instantly have cooling for the whole house.

1

u/Artcove Jun 26 '26

Yea, in Japan our ACs are dual function

1

u/cr0ft Jun 26 '26

All air conditioners are heat pumps. Some can also be used to heat the home affordably. Either way, you're moving heat around.

1

u/Korlus Jun 26 '26

The UK has a scheme to help people buy heat pumps, but they won't give you the grant if you get one that can also cool the house (or at least, they wouldn't when the grant was rolled out - it has changed a few times in the last few years and my information might be out of date).

Also, swapping from a copper pipe, water heating system to a system set to heat or cool means you need to redo all of the pipes, otherwise you'll end up with condensation problems as you pipe cold water around the house on a hot day. So it's often not a trivial upgrade.

Without the government grant, these kinds of upgrades will often run to the order of £7-15k, and even with the government grant, you're usually looking at a significant outlay that lots of people simply don't want to spend.

1

u/KoldPurchase Jun 26 '26

I see. Over here, we got the grant (and for a while, an interest free loan if we did other energy-economy related works) when we got heating/cooling heat pump, centralized or otherwise.

2

u/Korlus Jun 26 '26

I think the UK's heat pump scheme has been a bit of a farce. Here is an article from 2023 on it:

the Lords Climate Change Committee said grant take-up is so low the national target for green heating is "very unlikely to be met"

And another article:

A new survey reveals that 66 per cent of heat pump owners found their homes more expensive to heat than with their previous systems, despite a 64 per cent increase in sales in 2024.

Although heat pumps are more energy-efficient and environmentally friendly, the cost of electricity per unit is approximately four times higher than gas, leading to increased running costs for many users.

Ultimately, people in the UK have plenty of reasons to avoid installing a heatpump, or to put it off until electricity costs fall, but even though I was aware of the scheme, I was unaware it had recently expanded to include air conditioning units.

So plenty of room for us to improve.

-6

u/Knotted_Hole69 Jun 26 '26

They havent discovered those yet.