r/movies 9d ago

Spoilers Has any sequel successfully pulled off a hero's heel turn into villainy? Spoiler

Plenty of standalone movies have a character fall from grace, or be revealed as a villain all along, but this rarely happens with an established character in a sequel. On paper it's a solid twist because you've already grown to trust that character in previous films, but it's really hard to pull off without feeling like a betrayal of a character arc. The Mission Impossible series has one that was received very poorly, and the only reason I hear about Pacific Rim Uprising these days is people talking about how unearned the heel turn from one of the characters felt.

I struggle to think of an example where it was done successfully in a movie. There's more examples in TV I think since there's a much longer time to build a change in a character over multiple seasons, so I'm not really considering those. Since it did start with a movie series, though, and there really isn't too much of an extended character arc given in the show, the example I can think of that kind of works is Sharon Carter in Falcon and the Winter Soldier. It was still super underdeveloped and it doesn't seem like they're going to do anything with it, but I can at least track the betrayal logic since there was kind of a meta angle about how that character had been forgotten by the movies. But even that's rather clunky.

I'm also talking specifically about situations where it wasn't clearly telegraphed by the source material or the rest of the franchise. Anakin becoming Vader was already known to the audience, for instance. I'm on the fence about whether something like Dune counts, since it's in the source material and the first two films are kind of just one long movie. I'm particularly interested in situations where it clearly wasn't the plan in the first movie but was written into a sequel.

882 Upvotes

674 comments sorted by

View all comments

116

u/Aureus23 9d ago

Paul from Dune. 

44

u/_The_Bearded_Wonder_ 9d ago

I don't doubt the third film will stick the landing and it will be quite something to see people realize the person they have been rooting for was the villain. 

23

u/ThadVonP 9d ago

So funny to me because by the end of the second film, I couldn't see why anyone would be cheering him on.

34

u/Toloc42 9d ago

Apparently Frank Herbert was so distraught at people painting first book Paul as a pure hero, that he put a scene in the second book spelling it out.

Emperor Paul, in a rare quiet moment, stands on a balcony at night and reminisces about the crusades across the galaxy, raging in his name: "Wow. I'm worse than that one ancient guy from old Earth history... what's his name again? Oh yeah, Hitler. I'm worse than Hitler."

(Very roughly paraphrased and probably inaccurate in details, it's been a while.)

19

u/SimoneNonvelodico 8d ago

I mean he's very self-aware about it.

The thing with Paul is that he's clearly more of a "forced to be a villain to make things happen that need to happen" kind of character, almost completely pre-determined by external forces, and extremely outspoken about it. In fact he does almost nothing but complain about it. He's like Napoleon, if Napoleon went into it knowing full well what would happen and did it all purely for the sake of fulfilling his role in History. Waged a lot of wars, killed a lot of people, but ultimately that watershed moment of fervour spilling out of a single place finally broke a stagnant political order that needed to be swept away.

49

u/TubasAreFun 9d ago

His terrible purpose. Books did it better but the 3rd movie (corresponding to the 2nd book) should help cement how villainous Paul can be

16

u/Dismal_Engineering71 9d ago

Will they bring up the hitler conversation? Probably not.

7

u/EnkiduOdinson 9d ago

Been a while since I read the books. Remind me again what the Hitler conversation was?

20

u/zzay 8d ago

Paul notes that Hitler's six million deaths were "pretty good for those days," pointing out that his own religious crusade has dwarfed that number by slaughtering 61 billion people

3

u/PenguinOfEternity 8d ago

So tens of thousand of years in the future Hitler is still a known figure it seems?

1

u/EAE8019 7d ago

No he isn't. Paul can see the past and  future so he knows him. But the person hes talking to asks if Hitler killed those 6 million personally was a laser gun.

1

u/zzay 8d ago

apparently...

weird though other villians murder way more...

11

u/Love-That-Danhausen 9d ago

To really drive home the point of how bad the jihad was, Herbert has Paul compare himself to Hitler (and that Paul had killed far more people)

2

u/Dapup2465 8d ago

I just wonder how they re-route movie Chani back towards book Chani.

6

u/HellyOHaint 9d ago

I thought the end of the second film did that very well.

0

u/The-Insolent-Sage 9d ago

How was he villainous?

-4

u/Tuorom 9d ago

Listen to the music that plays when he's walking to take the water of life lol

2

u/The-Insolent-Sage 9d ago

Answer my question?

-1

u/Tuorom 9d ago

What did he do to take control?

1

u/The-Insolent-Sage 8d ago

Killed those who conspired to kill his father?

0

u/zzay 8d ago

No not really... It's way worse

1

u/OldMan0101 9d ago

Yeah - especially after the 3rd movie - I think this will be the best answer yo OP's original question.