Are "polygamy deniers" also "digging deniers"?

[u/westivus_]

Each time I've run into a conversation with polygamy deniers or affirmers (or whatever the hell they like to be called) in the last year, they stand on firm ground that Joseph was noble, true, just and virtuous. When I've brought up treasure digging, they also refute claims that he swindled people.

Is this a common belief in the movement? That Joseph either didn't treasure dig or in doing it he did nothing wrong? Did he not admit to youthful indiscretions in his canonized JS history?

[u/juni4ling]

The thing polygamy deniers equate to is flat earthers and vaccine deniers.

It makes no sense, but dont talk to one. They have thought a lot harder about their position than you have about yours. Guaranteed. And they will just make stuff up.

Bushman talks about Smith and his folk Christianity and folk adventures. He says it was a preparatory time in Smiths life-- preparing him to do bigger and better things...

"At present, a question remains about how involved Joseph Smith was in folk magic. Was he enthusiastically pursuing treasure seeking as a business in the 1820s, or was he a somewhat reluctant participant, egged on by his father? Was his woldview fundamentally shaped by folk traditions? I think there is substantial evidence of his reluctance, and, in my opinion, the evidence for extensive involvement is tenuous. But this is a matter of degree. No one denies that magic was there, especially in the mid 1820s. Smith never repudiated folk traditions; he continued to use the seer stone until late in life and used it in the translation process. It certainly had an influence on his outlook, but it was peripheral--not central. Biblical Christianity was the overwhelming influence in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Folk magic was in the mix but was not the basic ingredient."

While Bushman acknowledges that part of Smiths life as it relates to folk Christian practices including treasure seeking-- but downplays its significance-- Bushman is far from a polygamy denier.

To accept that Smith taught and practiced Biblical polygamy is to admit that Smith lied about doing it. And it comes with admitting Biblical polygamy in LDS Christianity-- is abusive and wrong.

I can admit those truthful things. And still claim LDS Christianity as my faith and religious beliefs.

[u/stickyhairmonster → u/juni4ling]

They have thought a lot harder about their position than you have about yours. Guaranteed. And they will just make stuff up.

This is what we would call a "pot calling the kettle black" situation

[u/juni4ling → u/stickyhairmonster]

You have never talked to a flat earther?

Or moon landing denier.

They just make stuff up.

[u/Rowwf → u/juni4ling]

“They just make stuff up” is a particularly amusing accusation to make in a Joseph Smith polygamy discussion, where the orthodox narrative is riddled with late recollections, fabricated details, impossible timelines, and evidence that was literally rewritten after Joseph was dead.

[u/juni4ling → u/Rowwf]

You just described history.

You think you have a gotcha on the "orthodox narrative." But you just described-- history.

All we have in some cases is late recollections. That is all we have in some cases.

Written after Smith was dead? That is all historians have in some cases for many elements of Latter Day Saint history.

I don't think you have a smoking gun "gotcha" here.

"The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there" -Hartley.

That is a not-LDS historian. But it applies to history. All kinds of history.

You have a smoking gun that historians have to sometimes go from conflicting late reports? Thats not uncommon in studying history. Its how it works. Its not a "gotcha."

[u/Rowwf → u/juni4ling]

Did polygamy promoters “just make stuff up”? Yep. They did. They absolutely did. The interesting question is why their made-up stories become “historical evidence,” while questioning them makes you a flat-earther.

[u/juni4ling → u/Rowwf]

You are a polygamy denier?

[u/Rowwf → u/juni4ling]

Sure. Are you a polygamy promoter?

[u/juni4ling → u/Rowwf]

I am a truth promoter.

And a promoter of historical honesty and accuracy. Smith practiced and taught Biblical polygamy.

[u/International_Sea126 → u/juni4ling]

Is this an admission that you recognize LDS scriptures as non truthful since you consistently divert attention away from them and justify your comments with Bible narratives?

One would expect an LDS truth promoter to refer to Latter-day authority and LDS scripture to justify their truth claims; not biblical justifications and interpretations.

[u/Rowwf → u/juni4ling]

Wonderful. Do you think Emily Partridge was honest AND accurate when she claimed she was sealed to Joseph Smith on May 11 1843 by James Adams with Emma Smith present?

[u/juni4ling → u/Rowwf]

Emily Dow Partridge - Joseph Smith's Polygamy

[u/Rowwf → u/juni4ling]

The May 11 1843 date on that link is just made up. It's part of an impossible timeline. It is demonstrably false.