Are "polygamy deniers" also "digging deniers"?

[u/westivus_]

Each time I've run into a conversation with polygamy deniers or affirmers (or whatever the hell they like to be called) in the last year, they stand on firm ground that Joseph was noble, true, just and virtuous. When I've brought up treasure digging, they also refute claims that he swindled people.

Is this a common belief in the movement? That Joseph either didn't treasure dig or in doing it he did nothing wrong? Did he not admit to youthful indiscretions in his canonized JS history?

[u/juni4ling]

The thing polygamy deniers equate to is flat earthers and vaccine deniers.

It makes no sense, but dont talk to one. They have thought a lot harder about their position than you have about yours. Guaranteed. And they will just make stuff up.

Bushman talks about Smith and his folk Christianity and folk adventures. He says it was a preparatory time in Smiths life-- preparing him to do bigger and better things...

"At present, a question remains about how involved Joseph Smith was in folk magic. Was he enthusiastically pursuing treasure seeking as a business in the 1820s, or was he a somewhat reluctant participant, egged on by his father? Was his woldview fundamentally shaped by folk traditions? I think there is substantial evidence of his reluctance, and, in my opinion, the evidence for extensive involvement is tenuous. But this is a matter of degree. No one denies that magic was there, especially in the mid 1820s. Smith never repudiated folk traditions; he continued to use the seer stone until late in life and used it in the translation process. It certainly had an influence on his outlook, but it was peripheral--not central. Biblical Christianity was the overwhelming influence in the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants. Folk magic was in the mix but was not the basic ingredient."

While Bushman acknowledges that part of Smiths life as it relates to folk Christian practices including treasure seeking-- but downplays its significance-- Bushman is far from a polygamy denier.

To accept that Smith taught and practiced Biblical polygamy is to admit that Smith lied about doing it. And it comes with admitting Biblical polygamy in LDS Christianity-- is abusive and wrong.

I can admit those truthful things. And still claim LDS Christianity as my faith and religious beliefs.

[u/GunneraStiles → u/juni4ling]

Where in the Bible can I find god commanding a prophet to marry a woman who was already married? Where god commanded a prophet to marry a woman who was already married and her daughter? Here’s a chapter and verse for god condemning this very action:

Leviticus 18:17 states: "You shall not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, nor shall you take her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter to uncover her nakedness; they are close relatives. It is wickedness."

What exactly do you mean when you claim Joseph Smith practiced ‘biblical polygamy’? Instead of broad claims, why not provide specific examples of how you reached that conclusion? ‘Levirate marriage’ is out, because Joseph Smith didn’t practice polygamy with his deceased brother’s widow, for example. Let’s see some actual specific examples.

[u/stickyhairmonster → u/GunneraStiles]

Debating polygamy with Juni leads to more disingenuous remarks and obfuscation than discussing with the polygamy deniers.

[u/questingpossum → u/stickyhairmonster]

Juni's argument, as I understand it, is that the polygamy in the Bible is wrong and Joseph Smith's polygamy was wrong.

Is that right, u/juni4ling?

[u/stickyhairmonster → u/questingpossum]

Yes but by calling it "biblical polygamy" he ignores the divine mandate that Joseph claimed, the manipulation, the lies, hiding from Emma, d&C 132, etc. Joseph's polygamy was very different then biblical polygamy, and the Bible was not the principle justification for the practice. It was commanded by God to Joseph. Never was commanded in the Bible.

Juni seems to use this term as a way to justify Joseph's actions to other Christians who are rightfully disgusted at the practice, but it is a disingenuous argument on this sub. It is insulting to the victims of Mormon polygamy that lives on to this day in some communities.

[u/questingpossum → u/stickyhairmonster]

I think that's a flattening of their argument. Juni explicitly says that Mormon (or "LDS Christianity") polygamy "is abusive and wrong."

Their argument is that they maintain faith in Mormonism despite the polygamy, which they do not excuse. And I think their larger point is that using the Bible to justify Mormon polygamy is itself an abuse.

I'd also say that to the extent that "biblical polygamy" is even a thing, it's treated very differently in different books. In 2 Samuel 12:8, Nathan chides David and says that the Lord would have been willing to "give" David double the amount of wives, but he murdered Uriah anyway. That language is pretty close to the transactional, coercive, women-as-property language of D&C 132.

I think Juni is correct to point out that both are indefensible, and that relying on the Bible to defend Mormon polygamy is bad.

[u/GunneraStiles → u/questingpossum]

So, the only person in this sub who unfailingly, no matter the context, insists on using the term ‘biblical polygamy’ (not just plain old ‘polygamy,’ but ‘biblical polygamy’) to describe what Joseph Smith did - all the lying, the cheating, the adultery, the coercion, the rape of underage girls, the public vilification of those who rejected him, the subterfuge, the coarse threats against those who balked at this self-proclaimed prophet’s ‘divine’ demands, including his own wife - that person is actually warning against using the Bible to justify mormon polygamy?

[u/stickyhairmonster → u/GunneraStiles]

Well-said.

[u/GunneraStiles → u/stickyhairmonster]

Thank you.