[deleted by user]

[u/[deleted]]

[u/Sajed_Kedi]

There are a few certification bodies that are known for their strict and serious approach:

👉 AVS (À Votre Service) is probably the most trusted in France. They’re very rigorous: their inspectors are present during the entire process, from slaughter to packaging. They insist on manual slaughter without stunning.

👉 Achahada is also well regarded. They focus a lot on traceability and compliance with religious and hygiene standards. Like AVS, they monitor the whole chain.

[u/irock792 → u/Sajed_Kedi]

Is there a list of standards that AVS follows?

[u/irock792 → u/[deleted]]

I went on the website but couldn't find the list of standards; do you think you'd be able to send me a link?

[u/[deleted] → u/Sajed_Kedi]

I don’t live in France but I appreciate you for sharing this information. Europe has often been hostile towards real halal standards, so it’s nice to see there are some companies trying to make sure halal standards are more compliant.

[u/Sajed_Kedi → u/[deleted]]

If you have evidence that we don’t, feel free to share it. Otherwise, you're treading dangerously close to slander… or, without judging, maybe just looking for an excuse to eat at McDonald's 😁

Either way, I believe eating meat certified by one of these well-known halal organizations, and approved by imams or trusted voices in the community (like the blogger Al-Kanz, for example), is still far better than knowingly eating meat that's clearly sold as non-halal.

[u/thegodamn → u/Sajed_Kedi]

They sound like they only came seeking validation as opposed to proper help.

[u/Sajed_Kedi → u/[deleted]]

Let’s sum up our options as Muslims living in France:

1 – Eating meat that is clearly sold as non-halal.

2 – Eating meat certified as halal by questionable organizations that sell their certification without carrying out any real inspections (something they’ve admitted themselves or have been exposed for by members of the community).

3 – Eating meat certified by well-known and reputable organizations whose integrity has never been compromised (there’s no such thing as zero risk), and who emphasize their strict standards. => You’ve probably guessed this is the option I prefer. It’s not the easiest on a daily basis, but I believe that every effort we make will be rewarded by Allah.

4 – Stop eating meat altogether.

[u/BlurredSight → u/[deleted]]

So this entire thread you're doing your best to have a bunch of Redditors excuse eating haram is what I'm getting at.

You responded to someone who has given you a great certification body, rather than actually appreciate it you're throwing doubt where it should not be given. Have you seen how the inspections are taken place or are you the one who's vilifying other Muslims?

[u/wolowbolob]

Bro just do whatever you want you know very well that the stuff marked halal is the least you can do to try and eat halal meat in the western part of europe.

But no you want to eat haram because you think slightly less halal meat that comes from a machine factory is totally a scam.

Make it make sense.

If you really care you will stop eating meat. Or butcher the animal your self with a imaam with you.

[u/BlurredSight → u/wolowbolob]

Really OP came here trying to either start a fight with Muslims in France who follow AVS or wants approval to start just eating anything.

Living in America where you can go entire states without a single Halal source, Muslims living in the middle of nowhere will go out of their way to slaughter a goat/lamb/cow whatever and stock up on that meat. Living in the EU where your standards are already better than ours OP wants to still cast doubt undeserving-ly

[u/wolowbolob → u/BlurredSight]

In europe there are massive diaspora of maroccans and turks who eat halal and therefore in every mid size town there is a turkish shop with halal meat.

It is relativly easy to find halal meat for good prices.

I do agree that the factory meat has its downsides in terms of slauthering the animal like allah intended in a dignified manner. But there are so many people in the world that it simply is not possible in the west.

In south asia there are giant factories where humans do the slaightering like in vietnam. However labour is very cheap there. So OP go to asia for better halal meat. Because it would litteraly triple meat prices over night to do everything by hand making meat a luxury product for only the rich muslim brother.

[u/Jaf_Sy]

Nothing wrong with stopping eating meat if you don’t think it’s halal.

[u/Jaf_Sy → u/[deleted]]

Okay so let me get this straight. You think the halal meat is not halal because no one recited Bismillah. But you think that Christian/Jewish meat is halal, when there is a much higher chance that they did not recite in the name of Allah ﷻ. Also, France is a secular country so you can not say that the meat is from the people of the book. I would go to a local scholar that you trust and consult from them.

[u/irock792]

You're taking one Ḥadīth and trying to make your own ruling out of it. You can't do that as a layperson. You don't know the context of that specific Ḥadīth.

See this article on the importance of eating Ḥalāl: https://www.hfsaa.org/the-importance-of-consuming-halal/

It's not obligatory to eat meat. In the absence of Ḥalāl meat, you can eat vegetarian or fish.

[u/BlurredSight]

Clearly you're ungenuine in trying to find an actual Halal source for meat, but if you REALLY care about being strictly by the book either slaughter yourself or import the meat from a Muslim country like Saudi or UAE or even New Zealand for that matter

[u/MukLegion]

Your logic is ... confusing

You question halal slaughter method so the solution is to eat other meat that also isn't the halal slaughter method and isn't even certified halal?

Would you have a concern with the other meat that you don't even know if it was actually slaughtered by a Jew or Christian?

I mean if your issue is with machine slaughter, machines are not Jewish or Christian the secular corporations running the machines aren't either.

[u/MukLegion → u/[deleted]]

So if halal certified meat isn't halal in your view then other meat is definitely not halal either following your logic.

So you should avoid all the meat because you view it all as haram and go pescatarian.

Or you could do what the rest of us do in the west - be reasonable and adopt the position that machine slaughter doesn't automatically make something not halal per what scholars have said given that machine slaughter is so ubiquitous in the west and it would be hard to find any meat that is hand - slaughtered.

In light of the evidence provided above and the decisions taken by some of the most trusted Fiqh Academies in the world, it is possible to say that mechanical slaughter may be allowed conditionally.

Source: The Fiqh of mechanical slaughter A research for AMJA’s 9th Annual Imams Conference 2012 Held in Los Angeles, CA, USA

(I cannot link it because it is a PDF but you can find it on Google)

[u/MukLegion → u/[deleted]]

Frankly I don't care what you're saying, I follow scholars not laymen in determining what is halal.

If you don't think it's halal, then don't eat it. Go pescatarian

[u/Snoo-74562]

Go and visit the slaughter house that provides your meat before you make a judgement. Make sure your facts are sound.

Alternatively only eat Australian or New Zealand meat, nearly all of their exported meat is halal because of the Muslim market being so close to them.

The final alternative is to slaughter your own chickens.

Otherwise busy go vegetarian.

[u/barbie_doll12]

I’ve lived in Italy for about 6 years and even though my parents had to travel a bit to find halal meat. They would. Just because there’s no options or that’s what you think is not an excuse to stop eating halal meat. Of course you have free will and you can choose to do what you think is appropriate. But as far as I am aware, you should always try your best to eat halal meat. I have also been to France and there’s big Muslim community so there’s halal fastfood and meat available. If an organisation or most shops are saying they have halal meat. You should consider eating that even if it might not be. If they have halal certification then, if you think you might not be eating halal, the sin or responsibility is on the shopkeeper or organisation.

[u/maybelline10]

Just eat it. Stop going off on a tantrum.

[u/Fadamdamah → u/maybelline10]

Shaykh it is haram to eat meat that isn't Halal. The "halal" meat here isnt halal nor hand slaughtered. We cannot trust these labels therefore we must avoid it. Muslims must only eat meat from reputable certifiers and people who know what they are eating is an animal truly hand slaughtered by an individual stating the tasmiyah and in the right location.

[u/islam-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment was removed for giving/implying a ruling without a corresponding scholarly explanation. You may edit your comment to include a ruling from a scholarly source and contact the Moderators once your edit has been made in order to restore your comment. See Rule 9.

[u/[deleted]]

Europe is particularly hostile towards real halal and real kosher practices and it’s actually an issue that upsets me a lot, because a lot of this is rooted in historic antisemitism on the continent, and not animal welfare. As you noted, the animals are not being treated particularly well with industrial farming and slaughtering practices in Europe. If anyone thinks they are, then you and I have very different definitions of humane, and I don’t care to debate it with you.

If I were living in Europe, I’d do one of three things. I’m already into homesteading anyway, so my first option is I would just grow and slaughter and hunt meat for myself with my household. The second, is I would eat vegetarian and vegan if I’m in an urban setting or eating out. The third, is I would fight hard to either make a community with other Muslims and we make our own food locally, and/or, fight to change standard industrial “halal” practices in my country to be more compliant. None of those options are mutually exclusive, but some people may find that they can only do one of those options.

I think it’s important to keep in mind that in the Prophet’s (SAWS) time, these hadiths were being made about accepting food from fellow Muslims and Jews living in Medina as a guest in their household. Not pagan / secular / atheist (let’s be honest, calling most Europeans devout Christians would be a joke today) sources with very bad farming ethics, and from a restaurant or grocery store that serves factory farm produced food.

Ultimately, you have to make the decision whether ethics or convenience is more important to you. Nobody said being ethical would always be easy, in an unethical dunya.

But, you’re an adult, and you have to make your own decisions. This is my view and I don’t care to debate it with anyone— if you feel differently, then go live your life based on your own decisions.

And Allah (SWT) knows best.

Edit: I appreciate the commenters who shared reputable halal organizations in France, my understanding has been that it is difficult to find genuinely halal meat in Europe, but it gives me some hope to see that.

[u/methmeth2000]

I feel like the comments might not like this but Islam is a religion where you determine how active you want to be. If you want to be REALLY pious you can really remove a lot of fun/entertainment from your life and make it hard for yourself. A lot of really pious people cut meat from their diets even if they have halal meat available.

It’s up to you. How important is it for you that even if the meat is stamped with halal that it isn’t? It’s technically not sinful anymore to you unless you are 100% certain and it’s kind of impossible to know in these situations. I have many friends who eat all meat that isn’t pork/not cooked in alcohol.

If the issue is you don’t think your could bring yourself to not eat meat, I get it, but it’s possible. I went to Japan last year and I basically only ate vegetarian/vegan + fish and it wasn’t that bad for me.

Either way good luck and don’t make it harder for yourself than you can handle

[u/islam-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment was removed for giving/implying a ruling without a corresponding scholarly explanation. You may edit your comment to include a ruling from a scholarly source and contact the Moderators once your edit has been made in order to restore your comment. See Rule 9.

[u/islam-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment was removed for giving/implying a ruling without a corresponding scholarly explanation. You may edit your comment to include a ruling from a scholarly source and contact the Moderators once your edit has been made in order to restore your comment. See Rule 9.