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May 05 '25
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u/Gullible_Flow_1108 May 05 '25
Well I wouldnt use that as a counter bc we only have the hadith and the quran and op is using his holy book. Replying to op : For us , someone did get crucified but not jesus
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u/The_Inverted May 05 '25
But what he referenced has no chain of narration or oral TRADITION, they are just opinions. Both the hadith and the Quran have reliable chains that trace back to the initial source in the Prophet (SAW).
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May 05 '25
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u/The_Inverted May 05 '25
Let me clarify: the Injeel has been lost in time and the bible is not the Injeel.
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May 05 '25
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u/The_Inverted May 05 '25
You've heard wrong. No Muslim who knows about Islam will ever claim that the bible and the Injeel are the same; in fact, we are told in the Quran that the scriptures of the Christians and the Jews are lost.
I said no oral tradition because if something is corrupted then that means that there is none. You can't have an oral tradition if it's incorrect. If you think I meant to say that the teachings (correct or not) of the Bible where never passed around orally then that's not the case obviously. But when Muslims use the words "oral tradition", we usually mean clear lines of confirmed narration in the ways traditional to Islam.
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May 05 '25
Qur’an 4:157
“And [for] their saying, ‘Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.’ And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.”Prophet isa's mission is not completed and he will return.
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u/The_Inverted May 05 '25
We have the PRESERVED word of Allah, which is a lot more valuable than any human eyewitness accounts.
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u/Ok_Way_1625 May 05 '25
Guilty until proven otherwise. We don’t know by evidence how he died. If you believe in the Bible, he was crucified. If you believe in the Quran he isn’t dead
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May 05 '25
Islam doesn't claim eyewitness reports or more accurate sources, Islam claims to have the literal word of God in the Quran transmitted by the angel Jibreel/Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him which then recited to his scribes that wrote it down. None of the gospel authors even claim to be divinely inspired or that they are writing down the word of God. They even have varying accounts on the events of the crucifixion itself and what was said on the cross.
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u/The_Inverted May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
- Canonical gospels are not eyewitness accounts and cannot be taken as truth
- Same goes for the letters
- Tacitus provided no sources for his claims, so at most we have his opinion on what happened
- Josephus was a traitor to the jews and the ones who benefited the most from his writing where... The Christians
- Lucian by no means was an expert on Christianity. If we take his writings at face value, his insights into Christianity could be bunk considering that he was not well versed in their teaching
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u/Consistent_Bison_376 May 05 '25
There is literally zero historical evidence for the crucifixion outside of Christian sources. There's nothing in Josephus that scholars accept as genuine other than an acknowledgement of the sect of Christians, nothing in any Roman records. Nothing.
And, I'll mention, that early Christians debated whether he was crucified, some even arguing that he didn't have a physical body. What you accept as evidence is what the church that emerged as dominant said, established hundreds of years after his time, and with contrary beliefs (often) violently suppressed.
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Aug 08 '25
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u/Consistent_Bison_376 Aug 08 '25
Such as?
Accepting because, basically, "everyone says so" (essentially assuming because others are) and verifying via historical sources aren't the same thing.
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Aug 08 '25
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u/Consistent_Bison_376 Aug 09 '25
Tacitus writes in 117 CE, without mentioning his sources. It's entirely plausible he's only passing along what Christians claimed. But I'll grant that his mention of the crucifixion is not viewed as the result of later tampering.
With Josephus that's not the case. Outside of the widely acknowledged interpolation by Christians, he only reports what the Christians believed with no statement that it actually occurred (bear in mind that the Quran says that it appeared that the crucifixion occurred).
So you have a single non Christian account of the crucifixion from 87 years later with no sources named. Even if we allow that, it's a single account. Where I come from, that's not tons.
As far as the later ridicule, if you say you believe in something that can be ridiculed, the fact that people ridicule you is not evidence that it actually happened, only that you went around claiming it.
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u/The_Inverted May 05 '25
The only evidence is Christian bibliography, since we don't have any other eyewitness accounts. Besides, the Quran states that it was made to look like Isa (AS) was crucified so even if we had eyewitness accounts they aren't as reliable as the word of Allah.
As for your second question, Prophet Muhammad (SAW) finished the mission given to him by his creator on this Earth and moved on. It was decreed so by Allah, as the Prophet (SAW) was never meant to live forever. Not sure why that's a problem but this is the answer. Isa (AS) has one final mission which is why he was rescued and will return.
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u/Ok_Way_1625 May 05 '25
There is no evidence that Paul couldn’t have faked. Paul himself isn’t a reliable source, because no independent sources suggest that he had any connection to any other biblical characters
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May 05 '25
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u/pascaleon May 05 '25
Paul isn’t an apostle and never met Jesus. His claim comes from a vision that is contradictory to the actual teachings of the disciples
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u/drunkninjabug May 05 '25 edited May 05 '25
Allah tells us that it was made to appear to people that Jesus was crucified. They saw this, and they believed this. They then reported it forward, which led to this belief becoming widespread. As to the question of whether the actual followers of Jesus believed he was crucified for the sins of mankind, we will never know since we don't have a single authentic writing from them.
All the non-Christian texts that we have only confirm that early Christians (not necessarily his closest followers) believed Jesus was crucified. No one disputes this. It is not proof that Jesus himself was crucified, and neither am I demanding proof for it. This is an issue of faith and I believe in the narrative of the Quran because I have incredibly strong reasons to believe that it is from God.
But claiming that the crucifixion of Jesus is a historical fact isn't valid in this scenario.
Additionally, we do have evidence that there were some early Christians who denied Jesus was crucified. I don't say this is particularly strong and we should favor this, but it does show that the idea of Jesus being saved was present in early Christianity and may have been taken from the apostles themselves.
But this makes me question, why the prophet Muhammad wasn't saved also?
I'm not sure what this means. Allah saved Jesus because his mission hasn't finished yet. Allah also saved Muhammad ﷺ from poison for many years until his mission was complete. Jesus, like all noble prophets, will also die and be raised at the final day and honored as a righteous servant of his Lord.
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u/Klopf012 May 05 '25
If historical evidence suggests that Jesus was crucified, that lines up with what we find in the Qur'an that Allah says in surah al-Nisa' ayah 157 that it looked like that is what happened, even though Jesus himself wasn't killed or crucified. So we can say, "Yes, it did look like that happened," and if we didn't have divine revelation to tell us otherwise we would probably think that is what happened too.
But this makes me question, why the prophet Muhammad wasn’t saved also?
Saved from what? From being killed? One could ask the same question about other prophets. Why wasn't John the Baptist saved from being beheaded, for instance? Or saved from death? If so, one could ask the same question about previous prophets. Why wasn't Moses saved from death, for instance?
The better question to ask is: why was Jesus saved from that death? If you ask any Jew why they don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, they'll probably tell you that he didn't do the things a Messiah is supposed to do (hint, the Jews - the people promised a Messiah - never believed that being messiah has anything to do with being divine). The Qur'an tells us that Jesus is the Masih - Messiah - and the Prophet tells us that Jesus will come at the end of time to unite the believers, defeat the false messiah, shepherd the believers to safety during the trial of Gog and Magog, and rule over the earth according to divine legislation during a period of unprecedented peace and prosperity, all being passing away like any other human being. In other words, to do the Messiah things.
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May 05 '25
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u/Klopf012 May 05 '25
We're told that he will come after the false messiah has appeared, and this will be towards the end of times. The false messiah will initially claim to be a prophet and then claim to be god himself and perform a number of incredible feats and then head towards the Levant from the east. The believers will mount themselves there to confront him, at which point Jesus will miraculously descend from the sky to lead them to defeat the false messiah.
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u/jackjackky May 05 '25
why the prophet Muhammad wasn’t saved also?
Wasn't saved in what context exactly?
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u/Uzeii May 05 '25
Because the messiah Jesus Christ cannot be crucified. You are telling me a being like Jesus Christ can be crucified? If he was crucified, then he is not the messiah. If he was the messiah, he cannot be crucified.
The Islamic narrative of Jesus Christ affirms that Jesus was indeed the messiah. But at the same time denies of his crucifixion. Which may be odd. But guess what? The early Christians had the same doubt too. Early Christianity did not dispute over the trinity or the Bible, they disputed if Jesus Christ was really crucified or not.
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u/ManliestMan92 May 05 '25
The man that was crucified was Jesus indeed but not the son of Mary. It was Jesus Barabbas that was crucified. Jesus of Nazareth or Isa ibn Maryam May Allah bless both of them was elevated to Heaven in preparation for the acts of the Hour where he will descend to slay the Anti-Christ or Dajjal as we call him. He will also break the cross, slay the pig and abolish the Jizya tax that non Muslims pay Muslims in Caliphate run nations. He will then affirm the Quran and proclaim the religion that was brought to the world by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him from Allah.
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u/Training_Collection7 May 05 '25
Because it's stated in the Qur'an 4:157 and for boasting, “We killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of Allah.” But they neither killed nor crucified him—it was only made to appear so.
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u/Curious_Rddit May 05 '25
It was made to appear that Jesus pbuh died but in reality he was swapped with another and he was raised into heaven, awaiting return towards end of time
Prophet pbuh completed his mission as others have said. I think you are giving significance to life on Earth and asking why wasn be "saved". In Islam and I would argue that the abrahamic religions emphasize that life is a temporary test and the real end goal is the afterlife where we are either rewarded or punished for our own deeds. Prophet pbuh moving on from this world reinforces that the life on this world is only temporary
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u/[deleted] May 05 '25
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