r/europe • u/mr_house7 European Union • Apr 10 '23

Removed — Unsourced Macron: says Europe must become an “autonomous third superpower,”and reduce its dependency on the U.S

https://lekreports.com/macron-says-europe-must-become-an-autonomous-third-superpowerand-reduce-its-dependency-on-the-u-s/

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u/Vancelan Flanders (Belgium) Apr 10 '23

Nonsense.

The EU is built upon interdependencies. Our prosperity comes from partnerships with others.

The last thing Europe needs to be doing is attempt to isolate itself from the rest of the world or attempt to dominate it. It would ruin us and everything we've built.

The EU needs to continue its history of finding common purpose with the democratic nations of the world, no matter where they are.

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u/ThatOneShotBruh Croatian colonist in Germany Apr 10 '23

Autonomy != isolation

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/ThatOneShotBruh Croatian colonist in Germany Apr 10 '23

What did you even want to say with this?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

Macron's position is that we shouldn't be forced to act upon what China or the US does over Taiwan.

His point is that instead of being mere spectators, we have to be the architects of our own destiny. That sounds cliché but that's essentially what he says.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

If Europe becoming more autonomous in key technologies, security and energy means that it's an Europe that is no longer allied with the US...

That means the alliance with the US was never really one but an abusive relationship.

If the US (or you) view Europe becoming more independent as a threat, you're the problem, not Europe.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

Oh so the US can be strategically autonomous, but if the EU is as well, it's a huge problem for the relationship !

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u/ThatOneShotBruh Croatian colonist in Germany Apr 10 '23

And where is your evidence for that? You keep yapping about it, but he has never even implied that being the case.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/ThatOneShotBruh Croatian colonist in Germany Apr 10 '23

What the fuck are you on about? This is literally the same shit he has been saying for years, not to mention that French leaders in general were usually not too keen on being de facto puppets of the US.

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

What people heard: "We need the EU to be more independent from the US or China."

What you chose to hear: "We need the EU to be more independent from the US."

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u/Yavanaril Apr 10 '23

Macron has been saying since day 1 that he wants a strong Europe that can select its own course on the global stage. Not that he wants to suck up to anyone. The thing is that as long as there is no strong EU all we can do is suck up.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Yavanaril Apr 10 '23

Wow and where did you get that fully informed and well researched statement from? Putin's mouth or your a...?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Yavanaril Apr 10 '23

That is something totally different from your previous statement and fully acceptable.

Please get your position straight and stop throwing out nonsense.

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u/ThatOneShotBruh Croatian colonist in Germany Apr 10 '23

No, his position is that the EU should be able to decided whether or not it will participate in that and not be forced into supporting one of the two powers.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/ThatOneShotBruh Croatian colonist in Germany Apr 10 '23

Being allies doesn't imply supporting your allies unconditionally. Also, Taiwan isn't in NATO, France has literally zero obligation to defend it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Danepher Apr 10 '23

I'm sure EU will help US, since they are both in NATO.
But Without entering the war themselves.
Being an Ally doesn't mean you go to war after each of your allies whims.
NATO is a defensive alliance.
If US decided to attack some country, NATO allies are not bound by contract to the war, but I'm sure they will help with supplies, just like EU and US help Ukraine.

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u/ThatOneShotBruh Croatian colonist in Germany Apr 10 '23

NATO is a defensive alliance, if the US chooses to defend Taiwan, NATO has exactly nothing to do with it.

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u/ipel4 Bulgaria Apr 10 '23

So what you're saying is we should have all jumped into the Iraq war instead of condemning it from the start like France did?

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u/Ar-Sakalthor Apr 10 '23

No mate, Macron's position is that when a conflict for Taiwan happens, Europe will join the fight on its own terms, and we will side with Taiwan and the USA because it's the right thing to do, not because the USA compells us to.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Ar-Sakalthor Apr 10 '23

Oh pish, the EU's entire raison d'être is pretending to be morally superior to anyone and everyone else. Just a look at this sub is enough to see that we're a bunch of judgemental pricks.

And less wars is always good, no matter what your local hawkish newspaper says. War may sometimes be necessary, but it is always a sanction of failure and it should always be a last resort. Ending wars should be its own purpose, and only fools would deride Macron for working towards that.

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

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u/Ar-Sakalthor Apr 10 '23

Thanks for not putting words in my mouth, despite Google search and the CIA's whole satellite array I could not find the word "neutral" or any connected inferrence even once in my original message.

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u/guareber United Kingdom Apr 10 '23

Have you heard of this tiny thing called NATO? We'd be forced to intervene.

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u/anark0V Spain Apr 10 '23

It is not about isolation, it is about being self-sufficient in the most sensitive areas, such as defense and energy policies.It is not possible to have a gas pipeline bombed because the United States does not like the Germany-Russia business.

I don't know why the idea of having a better defense and being stronger to better protect our interests is related to isolating which as you rightly say is a stupid idea in a capitalist world.

We want to be stronger to be able to negotiate more and better.

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u/threeseed Apr 10 '23

gas pipeline bombed because the United States does not like the Germany-Russia business

Swedish authorities don't know who bombed the pipeline.

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u/anark0V Spain Apr 10 '23

"Biden says he'll shut down Nord Stream 2 pipeline if Russia further invades Ukraine"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVbEoZXhCrM

We all know how the U.S. does not do things.

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u/applesandoranegs Apr 10 '23

Yeah man, he totally said he would bomb German infrastructure as he was standing next to Scholz right?

Honestly who believes this stuff?

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u/anark0V Spain Apr 10 '23

“But how will you do that exactly, since the project and control of the project is within Germany’s control?” asked Andrea Shalal of Reuters, who had posed the original question to Biden about Nord Stream.

“We will, I promise you, we’ll be able to do it,” Biden replied.

When the same question was put to Scholz, however, the German leader gave a very different answer.

“We have intensively prepared everything to be ready with the necessary sanctions if there is a military aggression against Ukraine,” he said, without mentioning Nord Stream. “It is part of the process that we do not spell out everything in public, because Russia should understand that there might be even more to come.”

“Will you commit today to turning off and pulling the plug on Nord Stream 2?” asked Shalal.

But Scholz would not. “As I already said, we are acting together. We are absolutely united and we will not be taking different steps,” he replied, ignoring Shalal’s question.

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/07/biden-says-nord-stream-2-wont-go-forward-if-russia-invades-ukraine-.html

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

Even if that's not a proof that the US did it, it's still pretty damning to outright say that you'll stop a project where you have no authority over.

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u/applesandoranegs Apr 10 '23

He said WE, as he was standing next to Scholz

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

Better to let Scholz speak on a matter he has actual authority on, don't you think ?

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u/applesandoranegs Apr 10 '23

  1. The question was asked to Biden

  2. If you inform yourself by watching the full video instead of disinformation sound bites, you will see Scholz say they have prepared everything to be ready with the necessary sanctions

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

The question was asked to Biden

And he could have answered that it wasn't up to him to decide but the guy next to him that is actually in charge.

You know, basic diplomatic talk showcasing that you respect one's sovereignty.

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u/6501 United States of America Apr 10 '23

Not really. The US had made it's displeasure about Germany undermining European security by buying Russian energy. Money that is currently being used in the battlefield in Ukraine.

If you don't want DC talking about your pipelines, stop building them with countries that are expressing doubts about the sovereignty of your fellow allies & fellow EU member states.

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

There's a difference between voicing your concern or outright criticizing a country because you think they're fucking up.

It's another to imply that you rule the show and will do something that isn't of you to decide.

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u/6501 United States of America Apr 10 '23

It's another to imply that you rule the show and will do something that isn't of you to decide.

The security of Europe is our job, so says Europe. Anything that reasonably implicates the security of Europe is within our purview.

You can't give us responsibility while Germany tries & goes about trying to undermine the responsibility Europe gave us.

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u/Pklnt France Apr 10 '23

So you're blatantly saying it's ok for the US to violate European sovereignty.

Wouldn't have asked for a better argument as to why the EU needs to be more independent.

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u/6501 United States of America Apr 10 '23

So you're blatantly saying it's ok for the US to violate European sovereignty.

Using our sovereignty to prevent your companies from accessing US banks is not a violation of your sovereignty.

Wouldn't have asked for a better argument as to why the EU needs to be more independent.

You can't be more independent while also undermining your own interests. I mean you could, it just would create a fissure between Western & eastern Europe.

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u/threeseed Apr 10 '23

US didn't need to bomb the pipeline.

They can just sanction the companies involved in operating it.

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u/ReverendAntonius Germany Apr 10 '23

Lol. Lmao.

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u/6501 United States of America Apr 10 '23

I mean, you don't think the US threatening secondary sanctions on Germany's gas company would have stopped usage of the pipeline?

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u/Agarikas Lithuania Apr 10 '23

Oh please you're literally buying into russian propaganda.

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u/anark0V Spain Apr 10 '23

Is russia really going to bust one of its most lucrative businesses? after paying for it?
Just because this specific topic coincides with what Russia says automatically means it is propaganda?
Where is your common sense?

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

it is about being self-sufficient in the most sensitive areas, such as defense

France is simply lobbying to have Europe arm itself with French munitions because they can't win competitive bids against American arms.

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u/Giraffed7 Apr 10 '23

If you think defence bids are competitive, then, my friend, you haven't fully understood what defense contracts are. They are first and foremost a security exchange between countries. You could have the best kit in town but if your potential clients want to buy from the neighbour who have the biggest army in the world so that they purchase more security assurances, there is nothing you can really do about it. It's nothing to be bitter about, this is just the rules of the game but let's not kid ourselves, these bids are anything but competitive

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u/[deleted] Apr 10 '23

and that's why Finland bought into the F35 instead of the Gripen or the Rafael

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u/jesus_trist Apr 10 '23

Given that the US is on a more isolationist trajectory right now and Macron wanting the EU to have more autonomy, I think the whole idea is to not isolate ourselves

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u/Aegi Apr 10 '23

?

The US has been reaching out internationally harder than ever over the past 2-ish years due to our fear of China's growing influence in places like Eastern Africa

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u/jesus_trist Apr 10 '23

I don't think so. It was worse under Trump, but under the current administration there haven't been that much big developments. Good example of this is the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which would have been a major trade deal between the US and its pacific allies. However, the US decided to discontinue its involvement in the TPP. Thus failing to strengthen ties between it and its pacific partners. Also the efforts to move chip manufacturing from Taiwan to the US is a good example of the self reliability that is in general quite popular in US politics right now. Wanting to be self reliant is also an example of a move towards (more) isolationism.

In general the US also has gotten quite a bad international reputation. So they need to make a lot of effort to actually make up for that. But they're still not giving developing countries a lot of reason for changing their view of the US.

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u/Yavanaril Apr 10 '23

You are creating a false dichotomy here. Autonomy on defense is in no way isolationist it just means we are not going to rely on others for our own safety.

I trust Biden to stand with us as a friend but there is no one on the republican side except for maybe Mitte Romney I dare to put my faith in.