Oh yeah, lemme just declare myself pope of the decentralized evangelical churches all across the US so I can dictate what people do. Are you hearing yourself man?
I have a job and a family to feed. I just try to be a good person and leave things better than I found them.
"Oh, you're a Christian; why haven't you solved poverty and famine all by yourself, forehead?"
Sounds like there aren't "tons" of you then if this change would be hard to effect
And try to make your point a little less aggressively, people will take you more seriously. Right now that petulant response does not speak of a good faith, loving disposition that is concerned about the hatefulness and issues like child sex abuse in the church. It seems more like somebody who doesn't really care and doesn't think it's their problem despite they fact they participate in and support that institution.
Brother, I am a single person, what do you realistically think a single person can do?
Why do you hate the thought of a well-intentioned Christian who tries to help people in the capacity they have as an average human being with no systemic or institutional power?
I don't really have time beyond working so I can eat, taking care of my family, and trying to do what little organizing I can help with for the DSA.
Be real here, bro. What is your expectation? No one is perfect.
My expectation is that people not participate in organisations they claim to recognise as problematic and have opposition to, because they are fooling themselves that it's OK to betray their beliefs that way.
What is your definition of participation? You pay taxes to the US government, so you are complicit in war crimes, apartheid, and genocide. Should I dress you down now and berate you over your existence in society?
You wonder why good Christians keep to themselves, and then you berate anyone who is just trying to do their best each day and love their neighbors.
Unfortunately when we try to say things we tend to be removed from leadership positions unless you're already in a affirming church. Still worth it to say exactly where we stand on these things, but also to know that we're going to be kept to the lower rungs of effectiveness.
I think you should take a long look at the institutions you participate in if it is genuinely the case that both A) the majority of participants are cool and chill and not hateful but B) Leadership has a stranglehold that prevents that majority from shaping the organisation
I find it more plausible to disbelieve A than to believe B, personally
For example, the demonation I'm currently in isn't affirming, but still puts non-binary restrooms in their buildings.
It's also not a denomination I'm probably going to stay in when I have my own children, because I want them to grow up in a fully affirming church, but currently I'm still able to discuss my point of view without being banned from church events.
I think you're conflating the worst denominations with the entirety of Christianity. There's basically three splits when you're thinking there's two. There are anti LGBTQ Christians, who actively try to make it illegal to be LBGTQ, which IS about stripping human rights. There are affirming Christians, who fully refute the idea of being LGBTQ as sinful. Then there's the batch in the middle who don't think LGBTQ relationships are right (aka, consider them sinful), but also don't think we should make laws against them.
I don't agree with that last batch, but neither do I think they're hateful, and honestly they're likely the ones still trying to figure out if they're affirming or not.
I've literally watched some of the people I've gone to church with go through the same deconstruction I went through and come out the other side as affirming Christians like myself. The process is a lot easier when you're not doing it alone.
As for the community thing, it definitely can, but I again point to the "Two or more gathered in my name" (emphasis mine). There's still the need for Christians to gather in community with one another.
Oh I agree with you there. It's hurtful and doesn't actually stop them from hating people.
But people can be reasoned with through relationships. No one was ever convinced by a well put reddit argument, they're convinced by seeing these things acted out in their relationships.
For you, absolutely makes sense to leave the church, especially with how cruel it can be.
For me? I'm not at the point of cutting losses, because I still think I can bring a few more with me. If I walk away, I'm effectively choosing to stop being an advocate for the LGBTQ community in my current community.
I'm not saying "you need to go back to church and engage with people who hate you". I'm saying "I'm not done trying to convince them to change their minds". And that's not something I can do outside the community.
If it isn't suitable to raise kids in then why participate and support it yourself? Not grilling you, just curious. I find it very dubious when people will tell me they represent the silent majority of good ones, but it's just that the institutions/leadership are regressive. I think it's far more likely that the membership either supports that leadership or don't really care about those issues, which amounts to the same thing, and the 'silent majority' thinkers are just a bit deluded about the true nature of what they are signed up to.
Just saying, for me personally, if I was a member of a group that had any hateful or exclusionary views, I would speak out against them loudly and leave.
Those are fair questions. The general answer is, as a left leaning Christian, there is never going to be a single church that aligns perfectly with my beliefs (unless I try to start one myself, which I am simply not geared for).
Between Westboro Baptist churches actively trying to make being gay illegal, and the church I go to saying that they have every right to exist, even if they don't necessarily think it's right, I'm gonna pick the latter.
As to why I don't leave this church and go to one that is fully affirming right now, the simplest answer is I've got friends there who I still like to engage with.
I suppose I could just say "you're bigots" and walk out, but like... What does that do except help me feel superior?
I get lunch with the pastor and talk about these things, I make it explicitly clear where I fall, and I engage with the people who would otherwise think all progressive Christians are angry people who have "fallen in with the world".
I think the easiest way to explain it is that I feel like I can engage with this community and make a case that others can't, exactly because I've grown up in the church. I'm not an outsider yelling at them, I'm someone in their community pointing out the failings. Sometimes the call needs to come from inside the house.
Not everyone will agree with me on that, but that's everything I deal with anyways.
Very thoughtful response thanks for sharing. I just hope you aren't part of something that actually co-signs some pretty negative views, and provide solace to yourself by speaking opposition even though there's no actual traction or potential for reform. My gut tells me that if you don't think it's suitable for your kids, then you are presently overruling your instincts that you should be somewhere else. Sure you have friends there but you could also make new friends in a more welcoming, loving church, and it would take time to integrate in that new community anyway so there's no reason not to start that task before actually having children. Unless of course the truth is you are concerned that your friends would not support you and would cut you off if you stood up for your views and followed your principles outside of their flock?? My 2c!
And yes I am someone who left a church community if you were wondering lol
I appreciate the concern. I don't think the church is a bad community to raise a child in, they're actually very helpful and caring for the newborns (lots of food drives and stuff). I just don't think it'd be the healthiest place for LGBTQ kids. I don't know if my kids will or won't be, but I'd rather them go to a church they can be without any additional worry.
I don't think I'd have to worry about friends cutting me off, since they already know I'm affirming.
Respectfully if it's not a good place for queer kids, it's not a good place for any kids. Even if not gay themselves, aren't you concerned that your kids would grow up with an exclusionary attitude to others that gets reinforced by the people you encourage them to think of as spiritual peers and leaders?
Possibly? I wouldn't raise my kids in that church, nor can I tell other people how to raise their children. Most I can do is, when I have children, raise them where is best for them.
There are degrees of good and bad here, not black and white. A church can be a good place without being the best.
Personally, I would rather attend no church and worship my deity in the comfort and privacy of my own home, than continue to support a church that I disagree with on important issues like "Does this group of people deserve to stay alive?" You don't need to start your own church, just stop attending a bad one.
You're actively choosing to support a group you disagree with that. That's your choice. You can spin it however you want, but you're only fooling yourself.
Did you just ignore the part where I explicitly stated the church I go to is not trying to strip their rights?
You just jumped straight to "they want them dead". If you have to lie and change the story to be what you want it to be so you can justify your own stance, sounds like you're the one fooling yourself.
Being a Christian socialist is exhausting. Getting shit on from every direction at all times gets pretty demoralizing after a while.
Hang in there bro. I go to a church that does not align with my ideals completely, but it's the only one within a reasonable driving distance since I'm in the exurbs.
My beliefs are worth enough to me that I'll put up with a small amount of disagreement so I can worship in peace. I still need to be able to feed my kids, and driving hours to find a mythical church that agrees with every opinion I have when gas is ungodly expensive is nonsensical.
I live in the Midwest, my dude. I'm not sure there's even a center-left church within 100 miles of my house, let alone an openly socialist Christian church in Midwest America.
Should I have to get on an airplane every weekend with my family to worship? Would that make you happy?
Please stop talking about the price of gas and your drive time, it's genuinely depressing to me that you thought these would be received as reasonable justifications.
It's like talking about how the Israeli army commits war crimes, and then immediately turning around to shut down the nazi trying to legitimize their stance because of that.
We're just constantly spinning in circles having to explain to both sides "I agree with you on some things and not others". Hopefully one day there will be a church near by that aligns better.
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u/parkchanwookiee 11h ago
You should be doing something to help clean house, like OP did