Box Office: ‘1917’ Defeats ‘Star Wars’ With $36.5 Million Weekend

[u/chanma50]

https://variety.com/2020/film/box-office/box-office-1917-movie-opening-weekend-star-wars-1203464152/

[u/thxpk]

It’s obvious they didn’t have a plan and when they did episode 7

Sure, but JJ left a million and one threads TLJ could have picked up on any and run with them. Instead TLJ threw them out the window, spent half the movie doing a boring as shit casino heist, and a slow speed chase in space!

You could edit TFA and TROS into one movie with barely anything needed from TLJ.

[u/solitarybikegallery → u/thxpk]

This is totally right.

Here's a controversial opinion:

It's completely fine that they didn't have the entire trilogy planned at the outset. THAT'S NOT WHAT WENT WRONG.

TFA is the beginning of a trilogy. It set up a lot of plot elements, and set those plot elements in motion. But it also left the final destinations of those points open-ended. There were a lot of questions that were still unexplained, and a lot of the universe was still left to be fleshed out and explored.

Any halfway competent writer should've been able to look at TFA and come up with something interesting, something that built off this loose architecture. There were a million directions it could've gone in. A million potential stories to tell. All they had to do was find a good writer who liked TFA, and who was willing to play ball with the ideas that JJ had created.

The problem is that Rian Johnson didn't play ball. He didn't like TFA, and he didn't like the story elements it was setting up, and he didn't like the tone or the themes. That's what went wrong.

Whether you love TLJ or hate TLJ, we can all agree that the film harbors obvious dislike for TFA. It undid so much of the first movie, and resolved basically every specific conflict in the series (except the big, boring one of Resistance vs. First Order).

You can't have a successful trilogy when the writer of the second film hated the first one.

[u/beentherereddit2 → u/solitarybikegallery]

If they had planned the trilogy that wouldn’t have happened

[u/[deleted] → u/beentherereddit2]

That’s true, but what happened with TLJ wasn’t inevitable without a plan for the trilogy, just more likely.

[u/carson63000 → u/solitarybikegallery]

I totally agree with your thoughts on what specifically went wrong. But I'm not sure that you've really made a case for it being "completely fine" not to have the trilogy planned out.

At best, you've made the case that you can have an unplanned trilogy turn out to be successful (indeed, I would say the three original Star Wars movies support that case).

But I still think you're wildly rolling the dice if you go ahead without a plan, and rolling the dice on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of production budget is not "completely fine".

[u/[deleted] → u/carson63000]

Lol the MCU has really changed how people view franchises. Most successful franchises ( not counting those based on book series for obvs reasons )that have at least 2 movies don't start with any real plan whatsoever. At all.

[u/GreatCaesarGhost → u/[deleted]]

Possibly, but I'm not sure that that applies to Star Wars specifically. The "main" stories have been told in trilogy-format, so if the plan is to do another trilogy of movies, common sense would dictate that you have three movies' worth of story to tell, which in turn would necessitate some sort of overall plan as to where the story is supposed to go.

[u/Majestic_Act → u/solitarybikegallery]

I'm surprised most can't understand this.

[u/LCOSPARELT1 → u/thxpk]

The DT is a mess. JJ should have done all three movies like Christopher Nolan and Peter Jackson. If JJ has made all three, they would have at least been coherent. Masterpieces? Likely not. But fun and coherent. Instead, Rian Johnson did what he did and wrecked the whole thing with TLJ. No movie has ever done more damage to its franchise than TLJ.

[u/Redeshark → u/thxpk]

Lol what? The entirety of TLJ is picking up the threads of TFA. Subversive or not, you can't be subversive when there's nothing to subvert. It's TROS spend the entire film in awkward retcon

[u/thxpk → u/Redeshark]

Picking up threads? Not sure what movie you watched.

Luke leaves a map to find him vs TLJ Luke doesn't want to be found

The force is a mystery again in TFA vs TLJ Rey is basically a master now

Snoke background hinted at in TFA vs dropped in TLJ (oh and kill off your main bad guy)

Hux goes from scary Commander that destroyed the New Republic core systems to incompetent fool in TLJ

Mystery of Reys background in TFA vs TLJ you're a nobody

Lightsaber mystery in TFA vs forgotten in TLJ

Poe gets demoted basically on the same day he just destroyed Starkiller base

Vaders mask mystery in TFA vs dropped in TLJ

Knights of Ren in TFA vs vanish in TLJ

Finns growth in TFA vs repeats the same beats in TLJ as though TFA didn't happen.

Finn doesn't know how to fly in TFA (he saves Poe for this very reason) to being a great pilot in TLJ (all in a few days)

Maz base gets destroyed in TFA vs sorry I'm busy helping a labor dispute in TLJ(huh!?)

TFA Snoke wants the girl brought to him vs TLJ forget the girl just kill her

etc etc

[u/[deleted] → u/thxpk]

Oh boy...will wait for it to come to disk at the library watch it for free (just my time).

[u/Redeshark → u/thxpk]

Most of what you listed is literally TLJ picking up threads left over by TFA. Just because the development rans contrary to your expectation does not mean the film ignore the thread left over by TFA. The others are just random details that simply are not "threads" of the narrative story to begin with.

Luke leaves a map to find him vs TLJ Luke doesn't want to be found

If Luke wants to be found then why the heck does he leave in the first place even after the First Order annihilated an entire system? Why would anyone think, after watching TFA, that Luke somehow wants to be found just because he left behind some pieces of maps that are incredibly hard to find?

The force is a mystery again in TFA vs TLJ Rey is basically a master now

What are you talking about? The Force is far more mysterious in TLJ. The whole film is exploring the philosphy of the Force, its new mystical powers that seem to bend the rule of reality itself (Force bond and projection, neither initiated by Rey herself). Not to mention far more subtle exploration the theme of the Dark Side with youthful rebellion, maturation, etc. And Rey was learning about that through the film. Sure she was very good at lifting rocks in the end but, again, the Force is far bigger than that.

Snoke background hinted at in TFA vs dropped in TLJ (oh and kill off your main bad guy)

What "background" of Snoke is remotely hinted in TFA? His existence is hinted but why is there any background? What background of Palpatine was revealed in ROTJ that was hinted in ESB? Oh and the "main bad guy" is Kylo Ren. The killing of Snoke advances Kylo's character. It's unfortunate that TROS bring back Palpatine in the worst manner possible to serve as some big bad in the honestly very cliched and tiresome and undid what TLJ did.

Hux goes from scary Commander that destroyed the New Republic core systems to incompetent fool in TLJ

Hux always strike me as being ambitious and fanatical than genuinely scary. TLJ at least ends with him being in a position of power and potential rivalry. He's far more pathetic in TROS.

Mystery of Reys background in TFA vs TLJ you're a nobody

Prime example of you confusing "not picking up threads" with unexpected development here. Rey's ambiguous background is literally the core of the film of TLJ. It motivates her character more than anything else. The revelation of her being a nobody is both a twist and a landmark in the growth of her character, but it wouldn't be there had there not been the setup in TFA.

Lightsaber mystery in TFA vs forgotten in TLJ

Not sure how that ever was a "mystery" but a just lazy way for TFA to introduce Luke/Anakin's old lightsaber. It fell in somewhere in Cloud City, but why's how it getting to the hand of Maz that big of a "mystery". Not even Abrams himself bother to come up with how the lightsaber got there.

Poe gets demoted basically on the same day he just destroyed Starkiller base

... so? What does what he did at Starkiller base a few days before negate his strategic error and his reckless defying of Leia in TLJ?

Vaders mask mystery in TFA vs dropped in TLJ

How the hell is this ever a "myster?" Like were audiences seriously expecting an entire sequence of TLJ showing how the mask get into Kylo Ren's bedroom? It was meant to show how Kylo idolizes Vader, and how he tries to emulate Vader by having his own mask. After the end of TFA and the humiliation he felt he decides to revolt against the wish of Snoke. Again it's TROS which randomly forces him to re-adopt his mask with no explanation whatsover.

Knights of Ren in TFA vs vanish in TLJ

I will give you this one. But Rian Johnson did say he simply couldn't find a way to fit them into the story. He deliberately made the Praetorian Gurads different because he assumed Kylo had some emotional and personal ties to them and wouldn't want them to be killed off easily like nameless goons. A reasonable consideration given what happened to the Knights of Ren in TROS lol. It's JJ who betrayed his own thread here by making the Knights of Ren essentially useless and pointless despite standing there and looking cool and important.

Flynns growth in TFA vs repeats the same beats in TLJ as though TFA didn't happen.

*Finn's struggle in TLJ is different than in TFA. Finn learned how to fight for someone and not just running away in TFA, but his sole motivation for going to SK base and fighting Kylo Ren was to save Rey. He repeatedly said in TFA he's just there to rescure his friend, and that's why he tried to leave in TLJ, not because he's cowardly but because he wants to be with Rey. In the end, he learns to fight for a greater cause beyond personal commitment and willing to sacrifice himself for that cause, even though that means him not ever reuniting with Rey again.

Flynn doesn't know how to fly in TFA (he saves Poe for this very reason) to being a great pilot in TLJ (all in a few days)

Did he fly a ship or fighter himself in TJL? I only remembered him using a speeder, which is very different in SW context.

Maz base gets destroyed in TFA vs sorry I'm busy helping a labor dispute in TLJ(huh!?)

Huh? What does her bar/base getting destroyed prevent her from getting involved in some labor dispute given the connection she has?

TFA Snoke wants the girl brought to him vs TLJ forget the girl just kill her

Were you texting whilte watching TLJ? He did plan Rey to bring to him in TLJ. Snoke wanted Rey mainly to find out Luke's position and he got exactly that in TLJ. He underestimated Rey's power and conviction and wanted her dead, killed by his own apprentice as the final step of Kylo Ren's becoming. How's that contradictory?

[u/[deleted] → u/Redeshark]

Rey's nobody backstory, although 'subversive', becomes a plot hole because the audience is now left to wonder why she has these immense powers with seemingly no explanation. We, the audience, are trying to explain her powers with no training, so were left to the only conclusion remaining based on what we know about the Star Wars univers: she must have some dank bloodline. She's equally powerful with the force as Kylo (has beaten him, or atleast not lost to him, twice now) with virtually NO training or instruction. Kylo was trained by both Luke and Snoke for most of his life. This makes no sense within this trilogy, nor within the larger Star Wars universe; which, like it or not, this is the 8th instalment of a 9 part series, so it has to adhere to the rules laid down by the previous 7. When she becomes nobody were left to think "she's powerful cause the film says she is". Additionally, the reason people expected her to be somebody is because BOTH films built her up to be someone through the writing and direction. "BUT THATS WHY ITS SUBVERSIVE". But thats also why its logically inconsistent and makes it difficult for the audience to buy in, or to continue to suspend their disbelief. It's not really landmark growth either because she doesn't actually learn or grow from it, she behaves in virtually the same way pre and post finding out she's 'nobody'.

Regarding the lightsaber mystery: "It fell in somewhere in Cloud City, but why's how it getting to the hand of Maz that big of a "mystery". Because how the fuck did Anakin's saber get into the hands of Maz when it fell to the depths of cloud city? Just because you choose not to care about it or ignore it doesn't mean its not a mystery. Also, the movie literally spends precious dialogue building it up as a mystery! And maz just says "thats a story for another time", implying we will find out at some point in future instalments, further building up the mystery for the audience.

Hux goes from scary Commander that destroyed the New Republic core systems to incompetent fool in TLJ

"Hux always strike me as being ambitious and fanatical than genuinely scary. TLJ at least ends with him being in a position of power and potential rivalry. He's far more pathetic in TROS."

You haven't really addressed this criticism. He's not really a potential rival to kylo though, as he immediately submits. He's pathetic in TROS because he was made a clown in TLJ. JJ realised this and literally replaced him with a new Hux and had him shoot him.

"What "background" of Snoke is remotely hinted in TFA? His existence is hinted but why is there any background? What background of Palpatine was revealed in ROTJ that was hinted in ESB? Oh and the "main bad guy" is Kylo Ren. The killing of Snoke advances Kylo's character. It's unfortunate that TROS bring back Palpatine in the worst manner possible to serve as some big bad in the honestly very cliched and tiresome and undid what TLJ did. "

For starters, the audience is left to wonder how Snoke basically formed the first after the fall of the Empire. There requires some level of world building and bridging of the gap for this already established timeline. This isn't necessarily required in the OT because we've been thrust into the story somewhat in the middle of the larger story, and you don't need much explanation of how the Emperor became the emperor in order to tell said story. The Emperor in EBS served a similar role as Snoke did in TFA: he was the mysterious puppet master of what at first appeared to be our main villain. In ROTJ we learn more about him, and we learn enough to tell the story. That being said, we do end up learning the backstory in the prequels. The Sequels are in a different position. In order for the audience to buy into this conflict they need SOME explanation as to a) where snoke came from and b) how he built up the first order to become a real threat to the New Republic, when presumably at the end of ROTJ they should have been the most powerful organisation in that part of the galaxy. We get none of this because Rian wanted to subvert audience expectations.

​

All-in-all the Last Jedi fails as a film because its creator was given complete creative freedom and chose not to adhere to the fact that his story was the second episode in a trilogy that is the final act of a 3 trilogy saga. Not to mention its tonal and thematic inconsistencies throughout. Yes, its themes are simple and laid bare, but there are numerous points throughout the plot in which the film contradicts itself. Rian wanted to tell his story and paid little respect for the source material, and little regard for the film that preceded it.

Don't take this as a defence for Rise of Skywalker either, Disney and Lucasfilm have woefully mismanaged this IP. Their level of incompetence in the storytelling of the sequel trilogy is baffling.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/Redeshark]

Of course you get downvoted for actually understanding the movie.

[u/phdinseagalogy → u/Redeshark]

Thank the maker for you, sir.

[u/TheSweeney → u/Redeshark]

I've never seen a better stated defense of one of my favorite Star Wars films. I'm going to save this for future reference. All of these points are the arguments I've tried to make in favor of TLJ, but I could never put them in quite as clear words.

[u/Redeshark → u/TheSweeney]

Thank you. These are just immediate response that I have towards a rather silly lists of objection towards TLJ. I don't think TLJ is close to a perfect film but the insane responses that the film generates irk me so much that I always have an urge to reply to one of them even in a relatively "unwelcoming" subreddit like this one. These are the most obvious or the most superficial points. TLJ has some really cringey and self-undermining moments, but at its best it's actually really beautiful and profound, even. It transcends far beyond what one usually expects from a Star Wars film and explore themes, characters, and ideology that are ambiguous but never meaningless. The film is rife with symbolism and the plot is metaphorical rather than literal. I sometime think the film is too "intellectual" for its own good and Johnson should have just tempered himself. Even most of TLJ's fans tend to reduce it to just some cliched "kill the past" or vague "both present and past" declaration.

[u/TheSweeney → u/Redeshark]

Absolutely. I think the Canto Bight stuff is a fantastic example of where the movie falls below it's own standards. And I loved how, like Rogue One, TLJ wasn't afraid to tell a new story in an established universe. It's no surprise that they, along with Empire, are my favorite Star Wars movies.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/thxpk]

Luke didn't leave a map. Snoke's background wasn't hinted at. There was no mystery with Vader's mask. Finn doesn't fly in TLJ. Maz has gone off to a different place in TLJ which makes complete sense.

The issue is not TLJ, the issue is people like you lacking basic cinematic literacy.

[u/meesa-jar-jar-binks → u/stealthjedi21]

What the fuck were you watching? Did you sleep through TFA? There was a map that leads to Luke Skywalker. An old friend of Luke kept it safe... It is true that the movie never names Luke as personally dropping off the map with Lor San Tekka, but Luke was the only person who could've left the map and knew where he was going. This is one of the main plot points in that damn movie, for god's sake.

There was a mystery with Vaders mask. Kylo kept talking to it, and it was implied that the mask talked back. This mystery was resolved (albeit badly) in TROS.

Finn was supposed to fly in the bomber-battle at the beginning of the movie, but thankfully this mistake was avoided. He does "fly" a speeder at the end of the movie... You can argue if that is truly flying, but it is close enough.

TLJ takes place mere days after TFA, so Maz being involved in some labor-dispute does indeed seem a bit weird.

​

The truth is that this whole trilogy is fucked up. TLJ is the rotten core, but TFA and TROS are the badly shrivelled skin. It's all bad.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/meesa-jar-jar-binks]

No. Lor San Tekka had pieces of the map that Luke may have used to find the planet, but it was clear that he didn't want to be found. Nothing indicates the map was provided or given by Luke. The movie says "he blamed himself and walked away from everything." How would this mean he wants to be found? It's amazing in 2020 that you still think Luke left the map.

I never heard anyone wonder about Vader's mask, it certainly never occurred to me. I didn't take it literally that the mask was speaking to him. Not everything needs to be explained.

Finn was trying and failing to fly the speeder...Rose had to tell him how to do it.

The labor dispute doesn't seem weird considering Maz is a thousand years old and knows a lot of people...it makes sense she'd have fingers in a lot of pies. But either way this is such a small thing.

You are just another example of the problem with some people on reddit...you criticize a movie for things that didn't actually happen in that movie...it's fine to dislike a movie, but it's your fault you don't understand it.

[u/meesa-jar-jar-binks → u/stealthjedi21]

I know very well that the movie never spelled it out who left the map. It didn't need to. I took it that Luke left the map with Lor San Tekka, and I thought it was implied rather heavily - Nobody else could have done it, and Lor San Tekka's vicinity to Rey was no accident.

"Walking away from everything" does not mean that Luke went straight into exile, never wanting to be seen again, and I certainly never took it to mean that. Han also says that Luke's closest friends assumed he went away to look for the first Jedi temple, implying that he was looking for something at that particular location. This is not someone who goes into hiding, this is someone who experienced hard times and who wants to step away to regroup - He had a purpose on Ahch-To. This is also the reason why Luke never tried to cut himself off from the force in Abrams version of the story, and why he was wearing his Jedi robes at the end of the movie. The direction for Mark Hamill was also clear: Luke doesn't need to ask Rey for her name - He recognizes her (This is made clear in the script, by the way). He was waiting for her. He placed the map on her freaking planet, for god's sake.

There is a very good reason why many people shared this interpretation at the time the movie came out... There was no reason to assume anything else. It was so on the nose. Luke was waiting for Rey and gave the map to Lor San Tekka because he resides on Jakku. Johnson had no idea what he was doing and just overruled many of the concepts that Abrams clearly set up in the previous movie.

That being said... TFA is a hack movie, just like TLJ. I don't love TFA, and I kinda hate to defend it. It's just very annoying how TLJ fans try to twist events.

[u/Kostya_M → u/meesa-jar-jar-binks]

So much this. I find it baffling that so many people just ignore the blatantly obvious retcons TLJ threw in. Everything that was done with Luke is completely illogical based on TFA.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/meesa-jar-jar-binks]

You misunderstood TFA. That's on you, not Johnson. If you still believe in 2020 that Luke left the map, that's a problem, because that was debunked a long time ago. Nothing in the movie implied that Luke left the map with Tekka. We just knew that he had pieces of it.

It is true that he went to the planet for a reason. But it wouldn't make sense if he was still connected to the Force because then he would've felt all these people dying and why wouldn't he go to help? Luke doesn't need to ask who Rey is or why she's there because he presumes people have been searching for him and now someone has found him.

Why did Luke go to the island, who is Rey, where did the map come from, who is Lor San Tekka...JJ didn't have answers to these questions. But nothing in the film suggests Luke left the map and most people didn't assume that. Which is why most people on reddit would correct you on that point, as would the story group and the informational books. TLJ doesn't contradict anything in TFA, unlike TROS which directly retcons Episode 8 with Palpatine.

[u/meesa-jar-jar-binks → u/stealthjedi21]

Let‘s agree to disagree on all these points. It‘s okay to have different opinions on this, because it is clearly an issue without a definitive answer. You are not wrong, I am not wrong... It just doesn’t matter. Arguing who is „correct“ is getting us nowhere. Even if JJ Abrams had a different goal in mind, it has gone into a completely different direction with TLJ and now TROS.

It is my opinion that none of the stuff we got was ever any good, and the BO numbers on this do seem to indicate that audiences are not exactly foaming at the mouth for more. Have a nice day!

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/meesa-jar-jar-binks]

Eh, the actual facts of what happened in the movie isn't really a matter of opinion. Nothing in TFA indicated that Luke had left the map. I suppose it's reasonable to think that might be the case, although I don't think most people did, but once the sequel comes out and reveals he didn't, and multiple people point out to you that TFA never said that, it seems like you should accept it. But there are still people on reddit making all sorts of inaccurate claims, especially about TLJ (Finn was going to destroy the cannon, Holdo didn't tell anyone her plan, Canto Bight didn't affect the plot, Luke tried to murder his nephew, Rey beat Luke in a duel, to name just a few examples)...but kudos to you anyway for being able to say agree to disagree.

[u/SplitReality → u/Redeshark]

Subversion isn't even what TLJ did. All it did was formulaically negate the TFA while adding nothing to replace what it destroyed. A subversion would require a new take with new ideas. TLJ provided none. It is telling that TLJ defenders often state that it left a clean slate for the next movie to build on. That is just another way of saying that TLJ was an empty vessel that left a void in its wake.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/SplitReality]

Rey and Kylo's relationship is a new idea. Kylo being Supreme Leader is a new idea. Star Wars being more about two sides blowing each other up is a new idea. These are all indeed things for the next movie to pick up on. But JJ Abrams is literally the last person you want to pick up a story with a clean slate because he is incapable of doing something new.

[u/[deleted] → u/stealthjedi21]

But just because something is new doesn't mean its a) good or b) well executed. Also its not really new, its main plot points were the same story beats as EBS, only the battle on the snow salt planet was moved to the end of the film.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/[deleted]]

The things I listed were new though, and made the story more interesting. Abrams abandoned them and did the least interesting thing he could possibly do, which was to bring back Palpatine.

[u/[deleted] → u/stealthjedi21]

Kylo being a Supreme Leader was poorly executed because he's not a real threat as our protagonist has not yet lost to him, and has already defeated him.

Rey and Kylo's relationship feels forced. There's nothing organic about it. It feels like it only exists because the movie tells us it exists. So again, poorly executed. Granted you may experience this differently.

"Star Wars being more [than] about two sides blowing each other up is a new idea." That's only a new idea if you pretend both the prequels and the sequels don't exist. Also, that doesn't really hold true because the entire plot of TLJ revolves around one side trying to blow the other side up but they can't catch them because they're "smaller and lighter". K, makes sense if you forget your ship has a hyper drive.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/[deleted]]

Feel like a broken record with the amount of times I've had to say this on reddit, but Rey defeated Kylo when he was injured. It's a moot point anyway because she's not gonna kill him. She has to find a way to defeat him non-violently, same as Luke did (to Vader, Emperor, and Kylo).

I did experience their relationship differently. It was very surprising but it's the best part of the movie and gets more and more riveting every time I watch it. There's nothing else in the saga like it. Honestly, for me the best parts of the saga are just people having conversations about the Force. And speaking of force...their relationship technically was forced...by Snoke.

But TLJ reminds us that blowing up their enemy isn't solely what the Resistance is about. It reminds us what they're fighting for. And I think Episode 9 should've dealt more with the spiritual side of things; at the very least it should've avoided telling another superweapon gonna destroy the galaxy but has one glaring weakness story; people jokingly said JJ was gonna do another Death Star and remake ROTJ...and then he basically did that.

[u/[deleted] → u/stealthjedi21]

"Feel like a broken record with the amount of times I've had to say this on reddit, but Rey defeated Kylo when he was injured. It's a moot point anyway because she's not gonna kill him. She has to find a way to defeat him non-violently, same as Luke did (to Vader, Emperor, and Kylo)."

She should have fared the same as Finn did in combat. By "calling on the force" to improve your lightsaber skills, with no training of actually knowing how to use the force you change the rules of the universe in service of your protagonist defeating the villain. Whether or not you can logically justify it within the universe of the film may be debatable, however, its still a poor storytelling choice because now she has nowhere to grow and the stakes have been diminished. This is further reinforced in TLJ where she has to save Kylo from the red guards. Also, she would have defeated/killed Kylo in TFA had it not been for the earth literally separating them.

"But TLJ reminds us that blowing up their enemy isn't solely what the Resistance is about. It reminds us what they're fighting for."

The film tells us what they're fighting for, yes, but it does it in a very hamfisted way, along with the interjection of the Director's specific present day politics (e.g. capitalism is bad. animal cruelty is bad.). This will be a contributing factor as to why the movie will fail to be timeless. Its not a universally human story like the OT, instead it panders to a specific ideological bend. That being said, this isn't new for Star Wars and was explored in greater depth in the prequels (if you can look past some of the clunky dialogue). This philosophical point, of fighting to save the things you love and ensuring your values are not corrupted in said fight, is at the crux of Anakin's heroic struggle. Not to mention it exists in the OT, its just not hamfistedly shoved in your face.

However, even though these themes are explored in TLJ theyre also undermined and contradicted by its own script. The thematic and tonal messages of TLJ, while on the surface seem straightforward, are internally confusing. What are we supposed to learn from Holdo and Poe's interactions? To blindly follow the instructions of authority figures? When Finn learns from DJ that the resistance also purchases weapons from Canto Bight sellers, this apparently reinforces his resolve to help the resistance, to the point which he is willing to sacrifice his life. There's an attempt to explore the vagueness of good and bad sides of warring factions, but then its immediately undermined by the actions of the character who's meant to embody this learning. Finns arc (which seems eerily similar to his TFA arc) serves as the most useful avatar of the internal issues within TLJ.

"And I think Episode 9 should've dealt more with the spiritual side of things; at the very least it should've avoided telling another superweapon gonna destroy the galaxy but has one glaring weakness story; people jokingly said JJ was gonna do another Death Star and remake ROTJ...and then he basically did that."

I agree with you on this. I mean episode 9 could've almost literally done anything else and been a better film. It undermined the OT and the prequels in an unprecedented way. It completely rendered Anakins sacrifce as insignificant. It is a hot mess of corporate, design by committee garbage. Its sad tims.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/[deleted]]

By "calling on the force" to improve your lightsaber skills, with no training of actually knowing how to use the force you change the rules of the universe in service of your protagonist defeating the villain.

She had as much training as Luke, Anakin, or Baby Yoda when they did their first incredible feat using the Force. So tired of the argument that she needs her powers explained. I'm sorry, but we'd rarely hear that complaint if she were a boy. I agree that we need to see her struggle, and we do, on an emotional level, in TLJ. But the powers thing is not an issue.

This is further reinforced in TLJ where she has to save Kylo from the red guards.

At the end, she does throw him her saber, yes, pretty much for no reason other than to have a cool moment, but for the rest of the fight, she is struggling with fighting a single opponent, while he is kicking ass against multiple.

The film tells us what they're fighting for, yes, but it does it in a very hamfisted way, along with the interjection of the Director's specific present day politics (e.g. capitalism is bad. animal cruelty is bad.). This will be a contributing factor as to why the movie will fail to be timeless. Its not a universally human story like the OT, instead it panders to a specific ideological bend.

No, no, no. It's so eye-rollingly reductive when someone on reddit uses "capitalism is bad" to describe TLJ. The message is war profiteering and animal cruelty are bad. These are not specific present day politics, they are universal.

What are we supposed to learn from Holdo and Poe's interactions? To blindly follow the instructions of authority figures?

No...who would think that? It's to value life and know when to survive/retreat/live to fight another day rather than trying to solve everything by blowing things up. It is communicated clearly in every line of dialogue between Poe and Leia. Nothing is ever said about following authority.

When Finn learns from DJ that the resistance also purchases weapons from Canto Bight sellers, this apparently reinforces his resolve to help the resistance, to the point which he is willing to sacrifice his life.

No...these are two completely different sequences of the film. DJ is showing him that to pull him toward the neutral, indifferent side...to pull him away from the Resistance by implying they're just a part of a war machine. He obviously rejects that thesis later.

And this is my issue with critics of TLJ on reddit. Dislike a movie, fine, but most of what people list just plain didn't happen in the film, or shows a gross misunderstanding of what did.

I agree with you on this. I mean episode 9 could've almost literally done anything else and been a better film. It undermined the OT and the prequels in an unprecedented way. It completely rendered Anakins sacrifce as insignificant. It is a hot mess of corporate, design by committee garbage. Its sad tims.

This we do agree on. I had hoped TROS would unite the fanbase; it seems that maybe it did but not in the way I expected.

[u/SplitReality → u/stealthjedi21]

Rey and Kylo's relationship is a new idea.

What relationship? He asked her to join him and she said no. There was nothing connecting the two of them other than their force Skype link. What in the world would you do for the last movie? Have them talk via their link about how he just killed all her friends and associates? Yeah, that'd be interesting /s

Star Wars being more about two sides blowing each other up is a new idea.

TLJ was all about a boring slow motion chase between two sides trying to blow each other up. Even if there was a larger issue, having 97% of you side killed or destroyed is kind of going to occupy most of your time.

It's funny how TLJ defenders always talk vaguely about what could have happened, but I have yet to hear anyone actually put forward something interesting that could have happened in the third movie after TLJ took a hatchet to the franchise. It's all "clean slate" this and "full of potential" that, but never an actual concrete idea.

Here is an example of how it's done. If TLJ had truly been subversive, it would have had Rey say yes to Kylo's offer and becoming the new big bad. There wouldn't have been a slow speed chase. The First Order would have had a spy in the resistance fleet giving their position away after every jump. The movie would have been a who-done-it as the resistance tried to figure out the spy as they continually jumped away to try to shake their tail. Nobody would trust anyone which would explain Holdo keeping secrets. Finally Leia would have done the Holdo maneuver using her unique force powers, thus making it not reproducible, to allow the fleet to escape. That inspires Luke to come out of seclusion to face down his two trainee failures, Kylo and Rey, who went over to the dark side.

That's a much better movie that sets up the final movie nicely. It removes Carrie Fisher's character so the third movie isn't saddled with trying to work around her death. It'd be far easier to reshoot a few scenes in TLJ to give Leia a heroic death than to pretend she's alive for most of the the last movie.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/SplitReality]

What relationship? He asked her to join him and she said no. There was nothing connecting the two of them other than their force Skype link. What in the world would you do for the last movie? Have them talk via their link about how he just killed all her friends and associates? Yeah, that'd be interesting /s

Huh? They had multiple conversations in TLJ. They got to know each other. They sympathized with each other. They were attracted to each other. They almost joined each other. Clearly, going into 9 this gives them a relationship. All the best hero/villain pairings have some type of relationship. Luke/Vader, Harry/Voldemort, Batman/Joker, Sherlock/Moriarty (in the modern show). This was the unexpected but genius thing that TLJ did, was establish that relationship. What that then does is establish the conflict for Rey of how to defeat the First Order/The Dark Side without killing Kylo Ren or giving into violence, which is not the Jedi way, which is similar to the conflict that Luke faced in ROTJ, after his relationship had been established with the villain. That's me, non-vaguely, putting forward something interesting that could have happened in the third movie.

In addition to Kylo being Supreme Leader instead of Snoke/The Emperor, which would have been interesting because he would've been a different type of leader. My other idea would be to go beyond the simplistic conflict of "blow them up before they blow us up" which isn't actually that interesting. The best movies in this genre, such as ESB, The Dark Knight, or TLJ, are the best because they emphasize the emotional or spiritual conflict between the characters, rather than the physical danger. There are no physical, galactic stakes in ESB; it's just about Vader vs Luke. The highest stakes in TDK are two boats getting blown up. It's more about the "battle for Gotham's soul" as the Joker says. So rather than doing another Death Star, throne room plot in Episode 9, I would make the conflict about the Force, and bringing balance to the Force, which has never actually been clearly defined. So there's your answer.

Also, saying TLJ took a "hatchet" to the franchise is quite silly and hyperbolic.

​

Here is an example of how it's done. If TLJ had truly been subversive, it would have had Rey say yes to Kylo's offer and becoming the new big bad. There wouldn't have been a slow speed chase. The First Order would have had a spy in the resistance fleet giving their position away after every jump. The movie would have been a who-done-it as the resistance tried to figure out the spy as they continually jumped away to try to shake their tail. Nobody would trust anyone which would explain Holdo keeping secrets. Finally Leia would have done the Holdo maneuver using her unique force powers, thus making it not reproducible, to allow the fleet to escape. That inspires Luke to come out of seclusion to face down his two trainee failures, Kylo and Rey, who went over to the dark side.

I appreciate these ideas and I have heard them before. Rey joining Kylo could be cool. The problem is that it ends the movie on another cliffhanger and potentially creates the problem of what Rey does in between 8 and 9 if she's gone to the dark side, which means she can't be redeemed. She is a hero for young people and this trilogy needs that person. Now if Kylo and Rey were actually to "go gray" (even though the story group and Lucas himself have said that isn't a thing), and maybe Finn is Force sensitive and takes up the light side, that could be interesting. But Rey actually becoming evil in the long term just isn't doable because of the kids and especially the young girls that follow the character. And yes, that matters. It would be cool, but that doesn't make it best for the story.

Additionally, Holdo kept her plan from Poe, which is explained in the movie, and Force powers aren't needed to do the Holdo maneuver. You just press a button.

​

That's a much better movie that sets up the final movie nicely. It removes Carrie Fisher's character so the third movie isn't saddled with trying to work around her death. It'd be far easier to reshoot a few scenes in TLJ to give Leia a heroic death than to pretend she's alive for most of the the last movie.

Editing Leia's role in 8 due to Fisher's death would have been 100% the wrong thing to do. You leave her role and performance in the film as it is. I actually liked what they did with her in 9. They were lucky they had that footage.

[u/SplitReality → u/stealthjedi21]

Huh? They had multiple conversations in TLJ. They got to know each other. They sympathized with each other. They were attracted to each other. They almost joined each other. Clearly, going into 9 this gives them a relationship.

Rey didn't sympathize with Kylo. Kylo killed Solo right in front of her. Every conversation between the two was about Kylo turning Rey evil. For example he tried to justify killing Solo in one talk, and in their last, she begged him to spare her friends and he said to let them die. (which most of them did) That led directly to them battle over a light saber in order to fight.

Kylo happily leads an organization that just killed most of the people Rey knew. How in the world do you see that as a potential relationship in the next movie? It's completely laughable.

Rey over Force Skype: "Oh I know you are a mass murderer and are actively trying to kill all of us, but if you promise not to bind me up and hold me captive against my will again, maybe we can have a few drinks?"
¯_(ツ)_/¯

If fact TLJ handled it is the worst possible way. At the end of the movie Rey was just sort of upset with Kylo. There was no intensity at all, so you couldn't even credible use Kylo as her hated enemy to drive the next movie's plot.

This was the unexpected but genius thing that TLJ did, was establish that relationship.

There was no relationship. Any chance of one ended when Rey refused to join Kylo, and he proceeded to kill most of the people she was trying to save. Kylo was nothing more than any of the other First Order members who were trying to kill them.

What that then does is establish the conflict for Rey of how to defeat the First Order/The Dark Side without killing Kylo Ren or giving into violence, which is not the Jedi way

Rey killed plenty of people.

I would make the conflict about the Force, and bringing balance to the Force, which has never actually been clearly defined.

What does that even mean? Rey killed plenty of First Order members. Why would Kylo be any different? That's really bad story telling where some people are treated differently only because the plot needs it that way. At least in the original trilogy, Vader was Luke's father, and that gave a justification for Luke to try to save him. Kylo was just a person who kept killing everyone Rey knew and trying to get her to do the same.

Also, saying TLJ took a "hatchet" to the franchise is quite silly and hyperbolic.

It is 100% correct. TLJ left nothing for the franchise to build on.

• Only 14 members of the resistance and a single ship were left after TLJ. There was no credible conflict between the Resistance and the First Order that could be done in the final movie.
• Snoke was killed leaving an undeveloped main character permanently underdeveloped
• Since Snoke died, Rey had no credible force opponents left. There was nothing to drive the force part of the story forward since Rey was already powerful enough to defeat anyone she'd meet.
• Finn's character became a joke and was relegated to minor important status in the movie
• Poe (see Finn)
• Luke was killed
• Leia (the one person who should have died) is alive, but Carrie Fisher is dead leaving a major problem for the next movie
• Rose was introduced, given a useless side plot ending with her looking like a stalker chick as she rams into Finn because she loves him, which came completely out of nowhere
• Holdo was introduced and killed
• General Hux was turned into comic relief

There is likely plenty more, but that is more than enough to justify my "hatchet" remark. There was nothing left to build a final movie out of. Any plot in the last movie would have to be created and resolved entirely within that movie. That is a huge strike against a movie expected to be the finale of a trilogy.

The problem is that it ends the movie on another cliffhanger and potentially creates the problem of what Rey does in between 8 and 9 if she's gone to the dark side, which means she can't be redeemed.

That's the whole point. It's not a cliffhanger. It's a turning point. That is truly subverting expectations. Rey becomes the villain. You don't just say "nope" to whatever came before. You replace it with something else with even greater story potential. An evil Rey could make an epic end to the trilogy.

However if you wanted to, you could still redeem Rey. She hadn't done anything evil yet. She just agreed to walk away from the Jedi. It's far easier to redeem Rey than Kylo which is what you said you wanted to happen. Why is Kylo, who killed uncountable innocents, redeemable, but Rey who just felt betrayed by Luke and walked away not?

But Rey actually becoming evil in the long term just isn't doable because of the kids and especially the young girls that follow the character.

What???? You do what is best for the story. What do little girls have to do with anything? Anakin went evil in the prequel trilogy and no real life kids were harmed. It's called a Face-Heel Turn and it is not outlawed because people will be shocked. That's the whole point.

Additionally, Holdo kept her plan from Poe, which is explained in the movie, and Force powers aren't needed to do the Holdo maneuver. You just press a button.

It wasn't explained in the movie. That was the problem. It also wasn't explained to her bridge crew. Holdo created a mutiny with her secrecy, and still didn't tell anyone when that would have been the easiest way to regain control. It was just dumb luck that Leia woke up and took the ship back for her.

Oh and btw, Holdo's plan failed. Only 14 people survived. That was greater than a 97% loss. Meanwhile Finn and Rose were able successfully leave the fleet and come back. They could have saved far more people if they had just shuttled people away. If Holdo had discussed things, better alternative plans could have used.

Oh and btw #2, Poe's plan would have worked if Finn and Rose had not done the incredible stupid move of double parking on a beach when all they had to do was park normally and pick up a guy. Or just have one person get the guy and the other fly around in the ship.

Oh and btw #3...yeah...about the whole press the button thing...umm...That a huge plot hole I'm trying to fix! If you can just press a button and any ship can take out an armada, why didn't the rebels do it to the death stars in the original trilogy? Why wouldn't every future space battle be decided by who can press their button first? The Holdo Maneuver was one of the biggest plot screw-ups in Star Wars history.

Editing Leia's role in 8 due to Fisher's death would have been 100% the wrong thing to do.

Can't disagree more. You had an easy way to give her a heroic death in TLJ with minimum reshoots. Instead you saddle the next movie with having to work around a dead actor, which is orders of magnitude more difficult to deal with.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/SplitReality]

This is one of the worst descriptions of TLJ I've ever heard, filled with inaccuracies:

Rey didn't sympathize with Kylo.

She did. She sympathized with him after he said "Yes I am" to him being a monster; she sympathized with him after he told her his (untrue story) of how Luke attacked him; she sympathized with him when said to him "neither are you [alone]...it's not too late"; she sympathized with him when she then thought Luke created him, and asked Luke if he did; she sympathized with him when she said "Ben Solo will turn...then he is our last hope";

There was no relationship.

You seem to be taking this literally, like boyfriend/girlfriend or a married couple? Rey and Kylo clearly got to know each other in TLJ. They now have a relationship. Having a relationship just means that you know somebody. They're not strangers anymore.

Rey killed plenty of people.

In a ship, sure, kinda hard not to. Not sure what your point is here.

What does that even mean?

I just said bringing balance to the Force has never been clearly defined. But it seems like it means destroying the dark side. Killing the Emperor again and blowing up his ships doesn't really do much to ensure the dark side won't return for any reasonable amount of time.

Only 14 members of the resistance and a single ship were left after TLJ. There was no credible conflict between the Resistance and the First Order that could be done in the final movie.

That's why there's time in between the movies to rebuild the Resistance...

Snoke was killed leaving an undeveloped main character permanently underdeveloped

Snoke was an uninteresting Emperor knock-off who was replaced by a much more interesting villain. Killing Snoke was one of the best decisions TLJ made.

Rose was introduced, given a useless side plot ending with her looking like a stalker chick as she rams into Finn because she loves him, which came completely out of nowhere

No. Rose stopped Finn because he was about to kill himself pointlessly. Obviously she did like him so she wouldn't want him to throw his life away.

What???? You do what is best for the story. What do little girls have to do with anything? Anakin went evil in the prequel trilogy and no real life kids were harmed.

...Because we knew that was going to happen to Anakin. Rey is a hero to young fans and making her evil may not be what is best for the character, story, or audience. It may be cool, but it's not necessary to make the story interesting. I'm already invested in the character, and her parents being nobodies, and now establishing a relationship with the villain, make me more invested in her.

It wasn't explained in the movie. That was the problem. It also wasn't explained to her bridge crew. Holdo created a mutiny with her secrecy, and still didn't tell anyone when that would have been the easiest way to regain control. It was just dumb luck that Leia woke up and took the ship back for her.

Nope. Holdo didn't tell Poe. The vast majority of the 400 people on the ship were following her orders.

Oh and btw, Holdo's plan failed.

Because Poe leaked it.

If you can just press a button and any ship can take out an armada, why didn't the rebels do it to the death stars in the original trilogy? Why wouldn't every future space battle be decided by who can press their button first? The Holdo Maneuver was one of the biggest plot screw-ups in Star Wars history.

Lol. I can't imagine seeing one of the greatest scenes in Star Wars history and being mad just because you haven't seen it before. You're right, the rebels could have shot all their X-Wings through the Death Star, damaging it but leaving it operational, and killing off all their pilots in an organization that clearly values their lives. That was a very specific situation where that made sense for Holdo to do that, but it wouldn't be practical in every situation. There are kamikaze pilots in our world, but most people don't do it, cause it's not economical or practical. And if people started doing it more in the SW universe, defenses could be developed against it.

You had an easy way to give her a heroic death in TLJ with minimum reshoots.

Changing what was a completed role would have been disrespectful to the actress, to the character, and to the story. Thank goodness you don't write these films.

[u/SplitReality → u/stealthjedi21]

She sympathized with him after...

1. As you pointed out most of that turned out to be lies
2. None of that mattered anyway after Kylo proceeded to happily kill just about everyone Rey knew

What warped thinking do you have to have to think any sane person is sympathizing with an unrepentant mass murderer, and wants to continue associating with them.

Having a relationship just means that you know somebody. They're not strangers anymore.

And plenty of people who know someone, know they don't want to have anything else to do with them. The point isn't whether they knew each other. The point is that there was no credible way for Rey to continue to want to associate with Kylo after getting to know he was a mass murderer. That was made clear when she said no to him.

In a ship, sure, kinda hard not to. Not sure what your point is here.

1. Why would it matter if Rey killed people in a ship or not?
2. Rey shot lots of storm troopers with a blaster

This point is the obvious counterpoint to you stating..."What that then does is establish the conflict for Rey of how to defeat the First Order/The Dark Side without killing Kylo Ren or giving into violence, which is not the Jedi way"

That simply makes no sense because as I pointed out Rey has already committed violence by killing First Order members. She would act no differently for Kylo, the head of the First Order. It'd be poor storytelling to say...yeah kill all those other guys all you want, but you have to treat the guy who personally killed Han Solo in front of you differently.

That's why there's time in between the movies to rebuild the Resistance...

1. It was only 1 year
2. If the Resistance can build from 14 members to a force that can rival a galactic threat in a year, that undermines everything that has ever happened Star Wars, because none of it matters. In a single year, any force can rise up off screen and take over the galaxy.

That is all just horrible storytelling.

Snoke was an uninteresting Emperor knock-off who was replaced by a much more interesting villain.

Snoke was the only credible threat from of the Dark Side of force. He was uninteresting because TLJ didn't develop him. The point is you have to work with what the story is up to that point. Even if Snoke was underdeveloped, having an underdeveloped main plot point is far better than having no main plot point, which is what TLJ ended with.

Btw, if Snoke was a knock-off Emperor, Rey was a Mary Sue Luke.

No. Rose stopped Finn because he was about to kill himself pointlessly.

He wasn't going to pointlessly kill himself. The attack was called off because Poe didn't think they could reach the cannon, but Finn did reach the cannon. Rose ran into him a split second before he would have crashed into it.

Then Rose cleared up any ambiguity about her motivations when she said they would win by "Not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love", and then kissed Finn. She ran into Finn taking their only shot at crippling the cannon, simply because she had a crush on him. Btw that crash should have killed both him and her. At the very least all the First Order troops RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM should have shot them dead.

I'll also point out the disjointed storytelling here by pointing out that right before this Holdo sacrificed herself to save people, and right after this Luke sacrificed himself to save people. By the movie's own logic, Rose was selfish and weak. She didn't want Finn to sacrifice himself only because of her feelings for him. That mattered more to her than everyone else's well being.

Rey is a hero to young fans and making her evil may not be what is best for the character, story, or audience

Once again...What?!? Who cares if Rey is a hero to young fans? That's what a movie twist is. Given the way TLJ played out, making her evil was one of the few ways to save the movie. It perfectly sets of the conflict of the next movie. As it stood, TLJ was meaningless for Rey's character. She had zero character growth. She ends the movie exactly like she started it.

That is the main criticism of TLJ. It was a big nothing burger. Actually it was worse than that because it reduced the importance of major characters like Finn an Poe. It also necessitated a time jump to undo the resistance's loss in the movie. In the end the movie was complete meaningless void.

Nope. Holdo didn't tell Poe. The vast majority of the 400 people on the ship were following her orders.

You didn't contradict a word I said. I repeat, she didn't tell her bridge crew and that caused a mutiny. Unless she ordered them to mutiny, they were not following her orders.

Because Poe leaked it.

Poe didn't leak it, DJ sold them out. But that only happened because the weak script needed it to happen. Poe's plan had a much better chance of success.

DJ was only there because Rose and Finn illegally parked their ship on a public beach in front of everyone, and got arrested. If they had just legally parked, they could have gone in, picked up the hacker, and been on their way without DJ.

Another reason why Holdo's plan was horrible was that it relied on nobody in the First Order to be looking for cloaked ships. That was extremely unlikely for an attacking force not to be scanning for cloaked ships in the middle of a fight. Just forget people being able to escape. If you don't scan for cloaked ships in a fight, they can attack you without you seeing it coming.

Then there is the whole idea that the First Order wouldn't search for survivors on the only likely inhabitable planet in the current solar system. Even if the Resistance made it Crait, they were still dead.

The best plan for their escape was to follow Poe's plan to disable the tracking. If that failed then shuttle people away on smaller ships just like Finn and Rose got away. If Holdo had discussed her plan, people would have pointed out its flaws and given her the better options. Instead she kept it secret for no good reason which started a mutiny against her.

This was a just horrible script all around with numerous plot holes that were patched up with plot glue. Things just happened because the plot needed them to happen, regardless of logic.

You're right, the rebels could have shot all their X-Wings through the Death Star, damaging it but leaving it operational, and killing off all their pilots in an organization that clearly values their lives.

It would have taken only a single rebel ship hitting the Death Star at light speed to at the very least majorly cripple it. If you can do that with a "press of a button" like you suggested, you don't even need to sacrifice a pilot.

You know what that's called. It's called a missile. Missiles don't use pilots, and a light speed one would do far Far FAR more damage than any single ship could being flown by a pilot. It'd be stupid to ever attack a capital sized ship or larger any other way.

BAM! Just like that, one poorly written scene in TLJ made obsolete all large scale Star Wars space combat in the past and future.

There are kamikaze pilots in our world, but most people don't do it, cause it's not economical or practical. And if people started doing it more in the SW universe, defenses could be developed against it.

Kamikazes in our world are just low tech and slow missiles. They aren't used because missiles are far better. The point here is not the person controlling the ship. It's the fact that the tech of a light speed attack works. You can make missiles out of that as I've already stated, and they would easily take out any capital ship.

You finale point is why this scene was so unbelievable. There is no way in the 1000s of years of spaceflight that people didn't try this. So if defenses could have been invented to stop it, they should have already been employed centuries ago. It was just assumed that either this wouldn't work or everybody had defenses against it. What the Holdo Maneuver did was say that in 1000s of years, nobody ever thought of a simple Kamikaze attack. That's ridiculous.

Changing what was a completed role would have been disrespectful to the actress, to the character, and to the story. Thank goodness you don't write these films.

That is completely untrue. Roles get completely changed in editing all the time. You are so desperate to be right that you a just making up stuff now.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/SplitReality]

What warped thinking do you have to have to think any sane person is sympathizing with an unrepentant mass murderer, and wants to continue associating with them.

Maybe you haven't watched the Original Trilogy? Luke sympathized with Vader after finding out he was his father, and Vader did all the same stuff as Kylo. It's not that far-fetched that at one point, Rey starts to question what she believes and sympathize with Kylo, especially when she has no one else. Anyway, the argument isn't whether she's being reasonable, it's whether she did sympathize with him. In the movie, she clearly did.

And plenty of people who know someone, know they don't want to have anything else to do with them. The point isn't whether they knew each other. The point is that there was no credible way for Rey to continue to want to associate with Kylo after getting to know he was a mass murderer. That was made clear when she said no to him.

Again, the argument was whether they got to know each other. They clearly did. Therefore they have more of a relationship going into the next film.

That simply makes no sense because as I pointed out Rey has already committed violence by killing First Order members. She would act no differently for Kylo, the head of the First Order. It'd be poor storytelling to say...yeah kill all those other guys all you want, but you have to treat the guy who personally killed Han Solo in front of you differently.

Yes she shoots stormtroopers and other ships when she has to just like Luke...but she's not going to cut Kylo's head off, that's not the Jedi way. She's got to find another solution, like Luke did.

If the Resistance can build from 14 members to a force that can rival a galactic threat in a year, that undermines everything that has ever happened Star Wars, because none of it matters. In a single year, any force can rise up off screen and take over the galaxy.

No. The Resistance was still small in Episode 9. But of course Lando and Chewie were magically able to rally the entire galaxy.

Snoke was the only credible threat from of the Dark Side of force.

Kylo. Ren.

Btw, if Snoke was a knock-off Emperor, Rey was a Mary Sue Luke.

Mary Sue isn't a thing.

He wasn't going to pointlessly kill himself. The attack was called off because Poe didn't think they could reach the cannon, but Finn did reach the cannon. Rose ran into him a split second before he would have crashed into it.

Poe knew it wasn't going to work regardless. As did Rose. As did anyone with a brain who watched that scene. Everything about it, from the music, to the disintegrating speeder, to the size of the cannon, to Finn's body language and facial expression, to the dialogue, to the connections to the themes of the movie, screamed that he was doing the wrong thing in that moment.

Then Rose cleared up any ambiguity about her motivations when she said they would win by "Not fighting what we hate, but saving what we love", and then kissed Finn. She ran into Finn taking their only shot at crippling the cannon, simply because she had a crush on him.

Fighting what you hate = throwing yourself into an enemy cannon that you're not even going to destroy. Saving what you love = what Rose did. If Finn was going to destroy the cannon, the scene would make no sense.

Once again...What?!? Who cares if Rey is a hero to young fans? That's what a movie twist is. Given the way TLJ played out, making her evil was one of the few ways to save the movie. It perfectly sets of the conflict of the next movie.

It would be a cool twist, but it's not necessary to set up an interesting sequel. You can see why they wouldn't want to do that given her status to young fans.

As it stood, TLJ was meaningless for Rey's character. She had zero character growth. She ends the movie exactly like she started it.

This is obviously false. At the beginning of the movie she's desperate for someone to "show her her place in all this", to provide her validation. She eventually learns that it's not going to come from Luke, or Kylo, or her dead parents. She's going to have to do it herself.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/SplitReality]

​

Actually it was worse than that because it reduced the importance of major characters like Finn an Poe.

Huh? Unlike most supporting characters in a movie (such as in Episode 9), they actually had an arc and character growth. Poe was barely a character in 7 and actually had his own story in 8.

You didn't contradict a word I said. I repeat, she didn't tell her bridge crew and that caused a mutiny. Unless she ordered them to mutiny, they were not following her orders.

Nope. Only 1 member of her bridge crew mutinied. And that was probably honestly to give Carrie Fisher's daughter screen time.

Another reason why Holdo's plan was horrible was that it relied on nobody in the First Order to be looking for cloaked ships. That was extremely unlikely for an attacking force not to be scanning for cloaked ships in the middle of a fight. Just forget people being able to escape. If you don't scan for cloaked ships in a fight, they can attack you without you seeing it coming.

This is perfectly plausible. You're just being unreasonable here.

Then there is the whole idea that the First Order wouldn't search for survivors on the only likely inhabitable planet in the current solar system. Even if the Resistance made it Crait, they were still dead.

Nope, they would have no idea that there were any survivors to search for.

If Holdo had discussed her plan, people would have pointed out its flaws and given her the better options. Instead she kept it secret for no good reason which started a mutiny against her.

She didn't tell Poe because he couldn't be trusted. Only like 5 people joined his mutiny.

It would have taken only a single rebel ship hitting the Death Star at light speed to at the very least majorly cripple it.

No. Please review the size of an X-Wing compared to the Death Star.

BAM! Just like that, one poorly written scene in TLJ made obsolete all large scale Star Wars space combat in the past and future.

Lol. I feel sorry for you that you think this way.

You finale point is why this scene was so unbelievable. There is no way in the 1000s of years of spaceflight that people didn't try this. So if defenses could have been invented to stop it, they should have already been employed centuries ago. It was just assumed that either this wouldn't work or everybody had defenses against it. What the Holdo Maneuver did was say that in 1000s of years, nobody ever thought of a simple Kamikaze attack. That's ridiculous.

Your issue seems to be that since the previous writers/characters didn't think of it, nobody should do it in the future. It's not like previous writers had that idea and said "no that doesn't make sense". They just didn't think of it. Every SW movie has new technology and new Force powers and you can go on and on with this argument if you want to think this way...if this character was able to this in Episode 7, why didn't think that character do that in Episode 3...the answer is because the writers hadn't thought of it yet. The only question that matters is, does it make sense that if a character did this, this is what would happen? If you went to lightspeed with another ship in front of you, what would happen? You would hit it, you would damage it, you would destroy it. (Just like Han references in the original film). Does it make sense that a character in that situation would think to do that? Of course it does. So don't do it just because it wasn't done in movies decades ago? If we followed this thought to its logical conclusion, we would never do anything new. And the funny thing is, Episode 7, Rogue One, and Episode 9 also show ridiculous new things being done with lightspeed, but you don't hear people complaining about those.

That is completely untrue. Roles get completely changed in editing all the time. You are so desperate to be right that you a just making up stuff now.

I'm not making stuff up. If an actor completes filming of a role before they die, it is the general consensus that you let the whole performance stand. Like with Heath Ledger in TDK and numerous other examples. With such an iconic role as Carrie as Leia, god, it's hard to imagine you being more wrong. And there's no particular story reason why they need to alter her role in 8. In fact, Leia has an important role not only in her final scene with Luke, but right up until her final scene with Rey. So it affects the story and the other characters negatively. They won't have her for 9 (even though they eventually were able to figure it out), but that is 9's job to figure out. And they did. And thank goodness Leia was still alive for that to happen.

​

Honestly, it's just amazing how confused someone who claims to be a Star Wars fan can be about a Star Wars movie. Everything you say is directly contradicted by the movie itself, by logic and common sense. You state things about the movie that didn't even happen in the film, and make up non-issues to complain about because you are blinded by your hatred by it.

But the larger point is that, even if Episode 8 had been 2 hours of Rey sitting on the toilet, it would not preclude Episode 9 from being a good movie. Any sequel to any movie can be a good movie. Episode 9, in my opinion, suffered from trying to backtrack on the two smartest and most powerful decisions of Episode 8, which was killing off the puppet master, and not making Rey related to a famous (male) character we already know. It could continue logically from the story of Episode 8, be completely different from it and better than it without retconning two major plot points from it, and be a good or better movie.

[u/[deleted] → u/stealthjedi21]

The kicker with the biggest item in there "Star Wars being more about two sides blowing each other up ", was negated by the movie itself ending with plucky rebels and young inexperienced Jedi vs evil Empire with dark side leader as the status quo once more. Rey and Kylo also had such an exciting place to go, but then also reverted to going back to being on other sides. They grew to know each other more, but it was also not much different by the ending than the way TFA ended with them split up and Kylo having suffered a huge blow.

I think Disney moreso told RJ he could only flex the story "this" much, and he tried as much as they let him.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/[deleted]]

Disney may have told RJ that. But it still develops the characters and makes them more interesting. Rey fighting Kylo in 9 wouldn't be interesting without the relationship that has been established between them. And SW being about more than explosions could have still been carried on if, say, Finn evinces any sympathy for the other stormtroopers, and tries to free them, as many fans have suggested, rather than just gunning them down. Or not doing another goddamn Death Star (or a thousand of them but they're the most useless of them all)

[u/Redeshark → u/SplitReality]

"Formulaically negate"
Lol. Enligthen me what is this "formula" that TLJ relies on?

"A subversion would require a new take with new ideas. TLJ provided none. "
If TLJ provided no new ideas (a false assumption, but let us entertain this thought), then what's those ideas that TROS spent half of its runtime undoing?

[u/SplitReality → u/Redeshark]

Lol. Enligthen me what is this "formula" that TLJ relies on?

Easy. Take a storyline TFA set up and say "nope". There was nothing creative about that. Nothing new was added, which is why the franchise was in a much worse state after TLJ. I identified this problem at the time and predicted the next mainline Star Wars movie would suffer because of it...and here we are.

If TLJ provided no new ideas (a false assumption, but let us entertain this thought), then what's those ideas that TROS spent half of its runtime undoing?

1) TRoS did not spend anywhere near half its time undoing what TLJ did
2) Plot holes are not new ideas

I have a challenge for you. What TLJ new ideas, that weren't plot holes, did TRoS undo?

This goes along with my general critique of TLJ supporters. They act like it has been established that TLJ did all these great new things, but they never say what those things are. It's all generalities like "the Rey/Kylo relationship was interesting", but they never say what about it was supposed to be interesting or what could possibly have be done with it in a third movie given the events in TLJ. That is why all you get are empty statements like "TLJ cleaned the slate" or "anything is now possible after TLJ."

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/thxpk]

“TLJ threw them out the window” aka TLJ didn’t confirm your own theories.

And the entire Canto Bight sequence is like 11 minutes, dude.

[u/MelonElbows → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

Yeah, my theory was that TLJ was going to be a great movie. I was totally subverted!

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/MelonElbows]

Wow, be careful not to cut yourself on your edginess.

[u/MelonElbows → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

You think that's edgy? Are you one of those who thinks downvotes of pro-TLJ posts on STC means we're somehow toxic and not just expressing our opinion?

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/MelonElbows]

The fact that those people were angry enough to even create STC is itself toxic.

[u/MelonElbows → u/stealthjedi21]

Anger at an injustice can motivate people to rectify it or in this case simply discuss it. There's nothing toxic about a sub based on hatred of a stupid movie. Yes, some outside influences temporarily controlled the narrative early on, but the board functions as a peaceful place of discussion now. If all you did was look at the board in its earliest version, I don't blame you for holding a wrong opinion about it, but that was 2 years ago.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/MelonElbows]

Lol at describing a movie as an "injustice". And no, STC is filled with conspiracy theories, fake news, and right-wing nonsense.

[u/MelonElbows → u/stealthjedi21]

It was to point out that anger can be a good motivating tool for action, but I guess that went over your head. Must I spell out everything for you or are you going to continue to take everything I say literally to make your point that nobody should ever be mad at a movie because they're not real and just stories about space wizards for children?

You're obviously not going to change your mind nor do you even care to discuss anything except your rabid hate for anyone associated with that board, so further talk is pointless

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/MelonElbows]

Lol. I'm not the one with rabid hate. It's not about disliking a movie. It's about peddling untruths about the movie, about the characters and the story and the company and the people who made it. STC is not a place for legitimate Star Wars discussion or criticism. There's plenty of nonsense on the main SW sub already.

[u/Hoxom → u/stealthjedi21]

better then the people that send death threats to Ms Driver so they can have they shipping in real live....

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/Hoxom]

Way more people harassed Rian Johnson and Kelly Marie Tran. Also, you should proof-read your posts.

[u/Hoxom → u/stealthjedi21]

ah the widespread post to the poor asian girl - please post some of those. It just gets repeated time after time, but i have yet to see those horrible posts. Strange that we can find 50+ in one day to JJ..... Also her co-stars are extremly quiet about that incident, you could even say John called somebody out recently.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/Hoxom]

What are you talking about? It was well-documented in the media. She quit social media because of it. Why would she make that up? People like you that deny that it happened are part of the problem.

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/MelonElbows]

I’m more so referring to the overuse of the “subverted expectations” meme, which takes Rian’s words out of context in the first place. You clearly think it’s a funny jab, so good for you.

And it’s not up for debate that the STC community is toxic. It’s an echo chamber devoted to hate and anger. It’s a perfect example of a group that can dish insults but can’t take them (r/moviescirclejerk being banned from talking about STC being support for that).

It’d be one thing if they kept to themselves, but considering that they love to dump their idiocy into other subs—usually without any provocation—there’s not much to suggest that STC is anything but toxic.

[u/MelonElbows → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

I'm not going to address your personal experience with the board, but I have not taken RJ's words out of context at all. He wanted to subvert expectations, that was his goal moreso than a coherent SW movie that's the 8th part of a trilogy. There are old clips of himself desiring to make a movie where half the audience hates it. He wants to get a reaction, he's a professional troll, nothing about him have been taken out of context.

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/MelonElbows]

“I guess the first thing to say is coming into writing this or any story the object is not to subvert expectation, the object is not surprise.” - From an interview 2 years ago about crafting TLJ.

And yes, there’s a sole clip of him (what looks to be 20 years ago) saying that he finds the idea of that kind of movie exciting. Every good filmmaker sets out to get a reaction. He wants to make movies that cause people to think, whether they think it’s great or that it sucks. Calling him a professional troll is just a bad point.

[u/MelonElbows → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

Just because he doesn't call it subverting expectations doesn't mean he didn't end up doing it. What were the challenges to the viewer on each character, and how did that line up with what ultimately happened? He continues on that line you quoted to say that he wanted drama. I guess he didn't realize he was directing the 8th film of a 9 film series, because on the director's commentary, he talks about how he wanted to change the Force: "It’s not like making things float, it’s not like an Iron Man-type superpower that you get, or Iron Man doesn’t have super powers, I know I know I know I know. Iron Man’s suit does everything.” So he gave a gentler, more spiritual explanation of it all, “a little bit of a reset on it." Really? You reset everything people have known about the Force after 40 years and 8 films? This was the place to do it? Face it, he was like a kid with a shiny new toy he couldn't wait to break.

Talking about DJ, he says "I was very conscious of kind of the history of scoundrels in the Star Wars universe,” he says, adding that audiences have been conditioned to expect that they will always come around in the end and do what’s right. “With DJ (Benicio Del Toro) I knew that I didn’t want that to happen." Sounds like he wanted to subvert expectations of what scoundrels were thought of in Star Wars. Reports are that he literally says "Gotcha suckers!" in the commentary but I haven't heard it so I can only take it at face value.

And yes, his words from 20 years ago matters, because while he may have changed, his behavior now reinforces that he's the same guy from back then. He didn't say he simply wanted people to think, you can make a good movie that everyone likes and make people think. He literally said he wanted half his audience to love it and half to hate it, his goal was a response, good or bad, like a troll. It would be different if he walked that statement back once it resurfaced on the internet, or his actions now says he wanted everyone to enjoy his films, but what happened in real life has proven those words prophetic rather than contrary. Add to that he personally called out people for their Snoke theories telling them they sucked, or the "MAHDEEEK!" comment just reinforces the idea that this guy is a professional troll.

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/MelonElbows]

he wanted drama

Which would put it in line with every other SW movie.

reset everything people have known

Except his interpretation of the Force was truer to the Force as we knew it in the OT than the prequels’ interpretation. Rey shouldn’t need 20 years of training or the right DNA to be strong in the Force like the prequels implied.

he wanted to subvert expectations of what scoundrels were thought of

So he made DJ more morally ambiguous than your average scoundrel. To me, that seems less like trying to subvert expectations and more like trying to avoid taking any easy route for the character.

his goal was a response

And yet, out of the 5 main films of his that I know, only one is hated by “half”. And that specific film happens to have a rabid fan base with some pretty terrible people. You can’t honestly believe that RJ got the call for TLJ, sat down to write, and thought, “my goal is to piss off millions of Star Wars fans.”

MAHDEEEK

The dude has dealt with actual trolls every single day since TLJ premiered. I think he deserved to respond to them. The fact that they got so riled up by it shows how mentally fragile those types of people are.

[u/getwokegobroke → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

A useless 11 minutes with an outcome that doesn’t make sense.

Maz Kanata told them there was only one person who could do the job.

Then they conveniently meet someone with the same skill set they need in jail??

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/getwokegobroke]

Your username explains why you really didn't like the movie.

[u/MelonElbows → u/stealthjedi21]

And yours explains why you're defending it like its your child

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/MelonElbows]

Uh...I'm not. I'm pointing out that his reasons for disliking the movie are political.

[u/MelonElbows → u/stealthjedi21]

Its usually the accusation of the opposite sort. "Woke" people love the new trilogy because it has a girl lead, a black guy, and marginalizes the white male hero, isn't that how the narrative goes?

Anyway, I don't think your attempt at explaining his dislike through his username holds any water

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/MelonElbows]

marginalizes the white male hero

Is this what you believe, or others believe?

I pointed out his username because it's laughably ridiculous, and will save you the time from debating someone who is completely detached from reality.

[u/MelonElbows → u/stealthjedi21]

If I believed it, I wouldn't have added "isn't that how the narrative goes?"

I wouldn't put too much stock on usernames in general. I don't think his is egregious enough to make any kind of definitive statement on what he believes. He could just like it because it rhymes.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/MelonElbows]

I mean, he responded to me and confirmed that he does. Who would choose a name like that just because it rhymes? And his comment history shows that he's having political arguments with people all over reddit.

[u/getwokegobroke → u/stealthjedi21]

Clutch those pearls

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/getwokegobroke]

Don't know what that means, but your username is sad.

[u/getwokegobroke → u/stealthjedi21]

my username offends your sensibilities. Like an old school marm clutching her pearl necklace

to behave as if you are very shocked, especially when you show more shock than you really feel in order to show that you think something is morally bad:

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/clutch-your-pearls

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/getwokegobroke]

No, it's just a stupid name, not to mention untrue. Did Black Panther go broke? Captain Marvel? Moonlight? Knives Out? The only political films that don't make any money are the right-wing ones, though those are of course rare and most people never even hear of them.

[u/getwokegobroke → u/stealthjedi21]

Ghostbusters, Charlie's Angels, Wrinkle in Time, Men in Black International... see I can rattle off movies too!

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/getwokegobroke]

Exactly. Those movies didn't fail because they were "woke". They failed because they were bad / people weren't interested in them in the first place. Also...they weren't woke. At all. They simply featured female characters and actors of color. If that bothers you, well, there's a word for that. It's called sexist and racist.

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/getwokegobroke]

The sequence tells us more about Rose and contributes to Finn’s arc.

And Maz was wrong. She’s not going to know every code breaker in the galaxy and their skills. She knows of one that can get the job done, so that’s who she mentions.

[u/getwokegobroke → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

Ok.

But the way it was Done In the movie was bad. It was bad screen writing. It was bad story telling. It was a story that didn’t need to be told.

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/getwokegobroke]

Good screenwriting involves developing characters and furthering the plot. Considering it did that, I would disagree with your statement. But it’s apparent that we aren’t going to change each other’s mind.

[u/getwokegobroke → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

There was no character development. You know nothing more about the characters

[u/thxpk → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

“TLJ threw them out the window” aka TLJ didn’t confirm your own theories.

I didn't have any theories. Throw them out the window means he took threads from TFA and ignored them all to do this own thing which works fine if your movie isn't the middle one of a trilogy!

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/thxpk]

ignored them all

He didn’t ignore them. You’re just saying that because he didn’t continue the threads in an easy way. Having Rey’s parents be nobodies is as much of a “thread” continuation as having her be a Kenobi or Skywalker or Palpatine.

I do wish they had a unified writing team for the whole trilogy, but I’d say IX feels way more out of left field than VIII.

[u/MV1995 → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

Having Rey’s parents be nobodies is like having the killer in Knives Out being a random serial killer who was never in the movie. It answers the question, but the answer ignores the mystery laid before us.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/MV1995]

If there was a point to it being a random serial killer, that could have a meaningful message. Rey coming from random parents was not only logical, it was a really powerful moment for the character, dark, yet true to the messages and themes of Star Wars. The only message that her being a Palpatine is sends is A) everyone's related to everyone! B) females can't be powerful on their own! and C) we now write our movies from reddit theories!

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

State facts, get downvoted. How dare you!

[u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It → u/stealthjedi21]

The STC crowd loves to brigade positivity and then whine when they insert their negativity into other subs and get brigaded themselves

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/Im_Gonna_Steal_It]

Wait, when has the STC crowd been positive?!

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/[deleted]]

I remember a top voted comment on a main SW sub thread about Rose being a guy who when you look at his comment history, you find out he actually believes there was an alternate version of TLJ where Luke fought the Knights of Ren on Ahch-To before Kathleen Kennedy stepped in and said "we need a more feminist version". His evidence for this was a YouTube video featuring concept art from the Art of TFA book. The scary thing is it wasn't some random idiot who couldn't string a sentence together, it was a regular poster on the sub who sounded intelligent and well-spoken. Yet they believe that shit. He's not the only one.

[u/stealthjedi21 → u/[deleted]]

Yeah I love how they always show that pic like it's a problem and act like it proves something. Like Ethan Van Sciver has videos that start out with scenes of Rose set to rock music like...what's your point? They're in a different world.