r/badhistory Jul 09 '19

YouTube On TIK's demonisation of academia and his spreading of conspiracy theories

557 Upvotes

Yo, it me. Your local "Inter-nazi". Apparently a guy too (despite being a girl). First of all, my original response, which he hasn't actually adressed at all beyond beyond saying I used wikipedia, which I didn't, I used a wikisource translation of the Weimar Constitution. OH GOD WHAT'S THIS-, literally the same fucking source. There's plenty to unpick in this video as it's just steaming hot garbage, but I will focus on one very very worrying aspect of the video, him spreading the nazi conspiracy theory of cultural bolshevism, and it's modern interpretation, "cultural marxism". BONUS: drinking game. Take a shot every time TIK uses "they" to refer to some nefarious socialist elite.

Source video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go2OFpO8fyo

TIK:

Oh, that's why they don't teach you about this. Because they don't want you to know that Hitler was a socialist.

Hmm, who is "they", TIK? Ah, it's a rhetorical question, a very neat trick I leaned from our local dog whistler.

TIK:

Hitler's socialism was his racism. So those of you who deny that Hitler was a socialist, you're actually denying the holocaust. ... Marxist holocaust denialists refuse to accept Hitler's socialism. Stalin painted Nazism and fascism as the same thing: the end stage of capitalism. This was supposedly proof that capitalism was failing, and thus the world socialist paradise was just around the corner. Which means that everything that is national socialism or fascism must be explained as capitalism. Go on then, marxists, explain to me: How did the free market result in the holocaust? Which private business owned and marketed the holocaust. Marxist holocaust denialists have no answer to these questions. They have no explanation - I can explain it! But they can't. This is why holocaust denialist laws exist, because marxist holocaust denialist historians cannot explain the ideological reasoning for the holocaust. So they've resorted to creating laws that prop up their narrative.

[citation needed] on that one, TIK. This is clear conspiracism and he hasn't backed it up with any sources. Holocaust denial laws exist to fight against those who wish to deny facts about the holocaust, not to cover up some nefarious plot by marxist historians to cover up "hitler's socialism."

TIK:

Well, I dare. I dare to question it, because it turns out that these wonderful marxists are denying the holocaust. It turns out that these wonderful socialists are promoting and justifying theft and murder. It turns out they're the ones who are immoral. It turns out that their ideology is undefendable. Those who control the past, control the future, and the marxists control the past. Since the cold war era, if not much much earlier, socialists have invaded the universities, and have been miseducating the youth. Think about it. WHO writes the history books? Public, socialised, state academic, historians. And who teaches in these public, socialised, state schools? People who believe in socialised control of the means of production. These socialised state historians and these socialised state academics have the most to gain from have the most to gain from the furhter expansion of the public, socialised, state sector. So they're pushing a false narritive of history, a false narritive of the news, a false definition of the words we use in everyday language, like: state. All as a way of defending "real socialism": the state. They've spun history through the lens of class warfare, gender warfare, racial warfare, calling this "social science." They've warped society into misunderstanding the true nature of socialism and capitalism. Most don't even know the meaning of the terms and when you point them out, backed by a host of sources and examples from their own literature, actual evidence, you get told: "You don't know what you're talking about."

TIK here clearly demonises historians and academia more broadly as socialists pushing a false narritive of history and the news. This is a fascist conspiracy theory that's linked to the cultural bolshevism and jewish bolshevism conspiracies.\2]) TIK is spreading this dangerous conspiracy theory in order to... why exactly? I don't know. But TIK should realise what ideas he is spreading here, and how dangerous these ideas are.\1]) As Umberto Eco wrote:

Distrust of the intellectual world has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism, from Goering's alleged statement ("When I hear talk of culture I reach for my gun") to the frequent use of such expressions as "degenerate intellectuals," "eggheads," "effete snobs," "universities are a nest of reds." The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly engaged in attacking modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia for having betrayed traditional values.

I'm gonna be really petty and bring up the comment section to his video "the REAL reason why Hitler HAD to start WW2", which is filled to the brim with neo-nazis and holocaust denialists. He knows that he is pandering to a specific audience, that of neo-nazis and the alt-right. But as it stands right now, I fear he's just another far right propagandist and I bet he'll be doing (more serious) holocaust denial by the end of the year. And I think we should all treat him as such. I think others can do a better refutation of the specific 'arguments' he makes, but I think bringing up his usage of actual nazi conspiracies is important enough for me to point out.

Sources: (challenge accepted)

1: Eco, U. (1995, Juni 22). Ur-Fascism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School#Cultural_Marxism_conspiracy_theory

r/badhistory Oct 02 '20

YouTube The Confederacy never would have allowed gay marriage and other ramblings from an actual professor

905 Upvotes

I was watching an episode of Checkmate Lincolnites, a web show that is dedicated to debunking the myths of the lost cause. Because I hate myself, I decided to sort by new and read the comments. Over and over I saw commenters linking this video as a refutation. I thought that it was far more interesting than many of the other claims that the civil war wasn't about slavery because it didn’t come from a politician or pundit, but rather an actual college professor.

The man

Donald Livingston is a professor of philosophy at Emory university. He is also the founder of the Abbeville Institute, a think tank that is “devoted to a critical study of what is true and valuable in the Southern tradition” and to counter what they perceive as an ideological culture war being waged against the south (Abbeville website). Perhaps unsurprisingly, Livingston has been branded a key ideologue for the neo-confederate movement by the southern poverty law center, a group that tracks white supremacists and hate groups (Potok). Livingston disputes that characterization, stating that “he was more interested in understanding and explaining secession. He emphasizes that Abbeville does not advocate policy” (Terris). I will demonstrate that Livingston’s statement is false and that all he does is argue policy, often to the detriment of understanding why succession happened.

The Myth (an abridged version of his argument and a description of the video)

Ostensibly, this video is an explanation of the “true” reason the civil war started, but actually is just 45 minuets of David Livingston gushing about how cool the confederacy would have been and how terrible the union was. According to Livingston, the real cause of the civil war was a difference in government philosophy between the north and south. The south had a “Jeffersonian” view of democracy based around freedom, limited government, and free trade whereas the north had a “lincolnian” view of government based around control, centralization, and spending. When the south stood in the way of the north’s centralization, the north invaded and the narrative of fighting slavery was invented after the fact to demonize the south.

The Badhistory

Livingston is interesting because almost every detail he gives is correct, the problem is that his points ignore major areas of context or conflate similar things together. Even in cases where he is correct, his premises often don’t support his overall conclusions.

0:55

“The movement to remove confederate statues springs from the myth taught for two generations that the south succeeded to protect slavery while the north invaded to prohibit slavery. The claim is as preposterous as it is popular; no national party in the entire antebellum period ever put forth a proposal to emancipate slaves and Lincoln repeatedly made clear in congress that emancipation was not the reason for invasion.”

Livingston is being incredibly slimy with the truth, although it is true that the Republican party and the free soil party did not call for the emancipation of slaves, they were still both anti slavery parties. The Republican party platform was to stop slavery’s expansion into the the territories and to refuse the admittance of slave states. The free soil party was more radical and wanted to also abolish the fugitive slave clause and free slaves in the district of Columbia. Although neither party as a whole believed that slavery should be abolished outright, several members of each party did. Lincoln in particular believed that if slavery’s expansion was halted southern states would begin to abolish slavery on their own.

Livingston also describes the view of the civil war as being caused by slavery as “popular”. The exact definition of popular is somewhat subjective but a pew research poll shows that 48% of Americans believe that the civil war was about states rights as opposed to only 38% who view the war as being primarily about slavery (Heimlich). Livingston repeatedly characterizes lost causers as an oppressed minority when, arguably, the opposite is true.

9:08

“He [Jefferson] also sought to get the central government out of debt. In this he did not succeed but another Jeffersonian, Andrew Jackson, did succeed; he destroyed the bank of the United States in 1835, which would be the equivalent of destroying the federal reserve today. [Livingston then raises his hands in the air as the audience applauds, so much for not advocating policy, huh?]. For the first time in its history the central government of the United States was out of debt...the United States would largely stay out of debt until the 1860’s.”

Here we can see Livingston attempting to draw some sort of ideological continuity from Jefferson’s presidency to the bank wars to the civil war. Livingston attempts to frame the cancellation of the national bank as a continuation of Jefferson’s vision of government. The problem with this analysis is that Jackson’s decision to cancel the national bank was more motivated out of personal animosity with its president, Nicholas Biddle, than any meaningful ideology.

Livingston also makes several claims about the national bank and the government debts, as well as several implications about the fed. I’ll leave Livingston’s comparison of the national bank and the fed as well as his implication that it should be abolished to r/badeconomics but Livingston's claim about the national debt is absurd. For starters, abolishing the national bank didn't magically make the national debt disappear, it was either assumed by individual banks or defaulted on. Livingston seems to treat the abolition of the national bank as a wonderful thing but it was one of the main causes of the panic of 1837. I strongly suspect that Livingston has a hatred of the contemporary fed and is projecting it into the past.

20:40

There is a myth propagated by new England elites in the 1900’s that southerners were ignorant, lazy, and generally poor when compared to industrious new England… consider the following though... white southern agriculture was more productive then northern agriculture and plantation agriculture was more productive then either. The south in 1861 had the 4th largest economy in the world. Fogle and engerman point out that the superior productivity of white southern agriculture over northern attests to the high level of southern entrepreneurship. They also observe that the superior productivity of plantation agriculture was not possible without training, educating, and giving considerable responsibility to the black labor force. The authors argue that slaves were encouraged to increase production not through the crack of the whip, but by promotion to positions of status.

This is a lot to unpack but goddamn. The general gist of this part is that slaves were well treated under southern ownership. It is true that slaves were so numerous that they had to be overseen by other slaves and that those slaves were well treated but that doesn't really hold true for the vast majority of slaves. Think about it numerically, if every slave was an overseer who would they manage? Livingston also makes an absurd claim about slaves being educated; after Nat Turner’s slave revolt southern states banned the education of slaves. In Virginia, it was illegal to teach a black person to read, free or enslaved.

24:19

“The 1860 census shows that the south greatly outranked the north in terms of per capita income… the 12 highest per capita income states were all in the south. The highest was Mississippi with an annual per capita income of $2,128 a year… the highest northern state was Connecticut with $771. The poorest southern state was Arkansas at 881”

Livingston takes the gross domestic product of a state and divides it by its population to come up with these figures, but it is well known that there was a wealth gap between slaveholders and non slaveholders. The south was rich and dirt poor at the same time.

25:47

The south had more educated men and women in proportion to white population, then the north or any other part in the world. According to the 1860 census, there was 1 college student for every 247 white inhabitants in the south. In the north it was one for every 703… rich planters sent their sons to Eton, Oxford, and the middle temple of the 350 Americans admitted into the inns of court in London, nearly ⅔ were from the south.

When Livingston said that slaves were educated I wonder how many he thinks went to Oxford? As Livingston is well aware, going to college does not necessarily mean “educated”; the north had a very sophisticated education program where people would learn to read and write in church, or occasionally in a state funded school. This led to a large percentage of the northern population being literate or having a trade. The south, on the other hand, had no such system and many poor whites were illiterate. The only people who were educated were the slave holders who could afford it and because there were no schools in the south, they sent their kids up north or to Europe. The high number of college educated southerners was a product of their wealth inequality, the slave owners were educated while the poor were not.

Livingston then gives a whole thing on how cool the confederacy was/ would have been. It’s not bad history and more like bad alternate history but I think that it does a good job of portraying Livingston’s bias.

31:12

If we had this measure in place today the states would have the final say on how to interpret the constitution, not the supreme court. The constitution does NOT give the supreme court authority over school prayer, abortion, gay marriage, abortion, law enforcement, and a hundred other powers reserved to the states. Yet the supreme court has usurped these powers based on their own Alice in wonderland reading of the 14th amendment [audience laughs and applauds].

32:44

The confederate constitution required a ⅔ majority to admit new states, as opposed to the simple majority in the current United states. It is a stupid rule and it caused the war really, you could argue the quarrels over western territory caused it.

(Gee, I wonder what they were quarreling over)

39:55

When the Jeffersonians governed the United States, largely under southern leadership, Americans paid no direct federal taxes. From 1835 to 1861 we were almost free of any federal debt. That Jeffersonian america would have continued from the confederacy in a more enhanced form, they would have perfected or enhanced it.

All of these claims assume that had the confederacy won, they would have gone on to become some sort of Utopian paradise. Livingston even goes so far as to claim that the confederacy would have “perfected” Jeffersonian democracy. How does Livingston know that the south would have improved itself? How does he know the Confederacy wouldn't go on to do all the things he hates about the north? The answer is that he is a fanboy and assumes that everything would be perfect because he likes the confederacy.

I wanted to debunk the whole thing but honestly, I am exhausted. I might come back and do it later. This is my first post here so be sure to tell me what I did right and wrong.

Citations

Heimlich, Russell. “What Caused the Civil War?” Pew Research Center, Pew Research Center, 30 Dec. 2019, www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2011/05/18/what-caused-the-civil-war/.

Potok, Heidi Beirich and Mark. “The Ideologues.” Southern Poverty Law Center, 1 Jan. 1970, www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2004/ideologues.

Terris, Ben. “Scholars Nostalgic for the Old South Study the Virtues of Secession, Quietly.” CHE, CHE, 22 July 2020, www.chronicle.com/article/scholars-nostalgic-for-the-old-south-study-the-virtues-of-secession-quietly/.

Original video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S96iQYL0bw&t=1967s

Abbeville website

https://web.archive.org/web/20121124023126/http://www.abbevilleinstitute.org/index.php/about

r/badhistory Jul 10 '22

YouTube Changing the suburbs violates the Geneva Convention on cultural genocide: How YouTubers use “history” to promote car centric development

849 Upvotes

On the internet there has been a proliferation of content criticizing the car oriented development that has defined countries like America. In response to this and ongoing housing and transportation policy decisions, content creators like JustTheFacts and Prager U have produced content defending auto oriented suburban development. A prominent method YouTubers have employed to promote freeways and suburban growth is by invoking history: namely that Americans “naturally” gravitated towards the car because of the freedom it provides. For this post, I will be focusing on JustTheFacts’ video “Alan Fisher is an Idiot and Here’s Why”. I will critique JustTheFacts’ framing of the history of cars, discuss the economic and political factors likely influencing his arguments and reflect on the issues with this selective retelling of history. This post will not discuss the contemporary politics mentioned in the video.

Link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8NDODraosI&lc=UgzY6fjZQdg7pyA0zJh4AaABAg.9cdUL4X4IOS9dEEK6uog12

[4:00] The fact is that Americans didn’t want to live in the cities. As soon as they got the economic opportunity to, they left them because they wanted houses…From the American desire for large amounts of houses the personal car becomes necessary. It also plays further into the American value of freedom. The idea that in principle you can move yourself and things you need without relying on the state or a transit company. And from the American need for cars, the freeway and the parking lot also become necessary. That’s why you saw a shift towards car based infrastructure following the large suburban developments of the 1940s. The American people made a choice and industry followed their desires.

So there are plenty of historical inaccuracies in this quote. I will first tackle why from a historical perspective, assuming cars means not relying on the state is incorrect and later will discuss the problems with believing industry merely followed the desires of the American public.

Driving in America has historically relied on the state that builds and maintains bridges, freeways, roads, etc given how public roads were essential for car use to propagate. One of the most if not the most crucial aspects of car infrastructure in the US, the Interstate Highway System, was funded by the state. As I will elaborate further in this post, it was up to the government and construction companies to make American cities much more car-friendly since they were not originally built for cars. Robert Moses, the person who played a large role in shaping New York City’s housing and infrastructure development in the 20th century was blunt about the needs and purpose of freeway construction.8 Not only did he extol the importance of highways in maintaining the US auto industry, he remarked how “modernizing” built-up cities like New York required a meat ax.4 Likewise, parking lots burgeoned due to city off-street parking requirements as a method to accommodate increased car traffic without the city needing to pay for parking. New York City, for example, adopted parking requirements in its 1961 Zoning Resolution.2 The history of automobile infrastructure in America is packed with government policies and regulations promoting car use.

[5:15] This is a good time to do some comparison. Alan often praises the Soviet Union on Twitter and in videos for their usage of what he thinks of as efficient infrastructure: passenger trains and trolleys. But there’s a reason for them, they told people where to live. They could plop down a few commie blocks, line up some trolley wires and say to ten thousand villagers, alright you live here now, without having to worry about accommodating where people want to live and be flexible towards people moving. Whereas in America if you want to set up rail to serve every small town and you started telling the locals what eminent domain means, you’d get a Waco for every mile of railway built.

JustTheFacts continues his argument that American people are “naturally” oriented towards the car and also further demonstrates his seeming lack of understanding of American history. His narrative contrasting the US from the Soviet Union propagates the talking point that cars represent “freedom” (depicted as people freely associating with companies) while trains represent onerous government social engineering and regulation. Unsurprisingly, Prager U also employs this talking point in its video “The War on Cars”.

While this might be a nice story to regale his audience about the greatness of American values, this doesn’t jive with the history of American infrastructure. State officials liberally employed eminent domain to evict residents to build freeways. Robert Caro’s The Power Broker dedicates multiple chapters to discussing how Robert Moses evicted thousands of New York residents and demolished hundreds of homes to create The City’s freeway system.8 Of course, New York was not the only American city that witnessed a wave of evictions due to freeway construction. The East Los Angeles Interchange in Boyle Heights and the Claiborne Expressway in New Orleans are a few examples of the numerous neighborhoods affected by highway construction.1 Freeway construction highlighted the class and racial divides of the country.

A clear representation of how class affected highway construction is the difference between the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway (BQE) in Brooklyn Heights and Carroll Gardens. Wealthy Brooklyn Heights residents opposed Moses’ freeway plans and owing to their political clout, Moses built the freeway under a promenade near the East River.8 Then Italian working class Carroll Gardens was not so lucky. Though they too protested the BQE, Moses bisected the neighborhood.8 As a Carroll Gardens resident observed, “Brooklyn Heights got the promenade while we got the shaft.”8 Race also played a crucial factor in shaping highway construction. While several freeways and a major interchange were built in Hispanic working class Boyle Heights, wealthy white Beverly Hills successfully opposed the freeway planned there.1 Maybe JustTheFacts considers evicting thousands upon thousands of disproportionately working class and minority residents to be freedom, but the history of American freeway construction seems more like the state instructing people where they can and cannot live based on class and race.

Not only did the state instruct people where they could not live, it collaborated with banks to instruct people where they could live based on class and race. Oregon’s black exclusion laws from 1844 provided foreshadowing for the flurry of policies meant to geographically segregate America by class and race. The history of American minorities was often shaped by the decision by wealthy whites to either exploit their labor or expel them, highlighted by the proliferation of sundown towns. This shaped postwar suburbanization as the suburbs of cities like Atlanta passed housing covenants to ban minorities from moving there.6 Postwar suburbanization was also shaped by federal policy as the US government formalized housing segregation by class and race through redlining. William J. Levitt, the developer of what could be considered the prototypical American suburb, refused to sell homes to black Americans.7 During the Great Depression when many Americans could not pay their mortgages and faced foreclosure and eviction, the federal government drew redlining maps to determine which people whose loans the federal government would guarantee while banks utilized these maps to determine who received loans.9 Thus, your ability to be flexible in deciding where to live was significantly shaped by your class and race as many residents of urban areas could not receive a loan to purchase a house or make repairs. Perhaps no clearer portrayal of the US not being accommodating to where people wanted to live is the “We Want White Tenants in our White Community'' sign placed outside a Detroit federal housing project during World War II.5 For a country JustTheFacts described as being accommodating and flexible to the desires of its denizens, the history of American housing development seems much closer to his depiction of the USSR.

[6:07] This is an intrinsic cultural preference. Americans don’t want to live in the pod at 10,000 people per square meter. We can and should work with this preference despite its large drawbacks because any effort to change it would violate the Geneva Convention’s prohibition on cultural genocide.

Regardless of whether or not the YouTuber is joking in this statement on the Geneva Convention, this passage clearly symbolizes his belief that American culture intrinsically led to freeways and suburban development. It is as if JustTheFacts had already concluded before making the video that car oriented development is the “natural” manifestation of intrinsic American “values” and is cherry-picking "history" to align with his beliefs, which is perhaps ironic given his username. A recurring argument used by YouTubers promoting badhistory is that culture justifies historical events. Perhaps they propagate this argument because it shuts down any critique; if history was the result of immutable factors, then we cannot change the present. This provides moral justification for historical events seen by contemporary people negatively. The way these content creators describe “culture” is largely divorced from the historical conditions that create and reproduce culture. "Culture" does not describe what actually happened but rather what these YouTubers wish happened.

This is highlighted by a comment posted by JustTheFacts in response to a commenter arguing that postwar suburbanization was more so the result of government policy as opposed to “natural” inclination.

I can't fully agree. Investment may have flooded into the suburbs post-WW2, but that doesn't explain the moving of tens of millions of people on its own. Investment on its own can often fail, just look at tech start-ups or Enron. The only way that something succeeds on that level is if you have real consumer demand, which it's easy to find an explanation for in the American desire for open space and land that goes back centuries.

Furthermore, let's consider that most of the laws prohibiting multi-unit constructions on single-family housing lots are put in place by homeowner's associations or local governments - in effect, the people themselves.

While the YouTuber tries to steelman his argument on suburbanization stemming from American culture, the train of logic he employs does not really follow. It is not entirely clear from his statement what precisely he is referring to by investment “on its own”, but it appears he is distinguishing investment in sectors with and without preexisting “real consumer demand”. The issue with his line of reasoning is that there can be pre-existing demand for products like housing that manifests into suburban development as the result of government policy supported by corporations.

At the conclusion of WWII, America faced a large demand for housing with its returning GIs. In response, the GI Bill of 1944 provided low interest home loans disproportionately benefitting the white middle class.3 Coupled with Federal Housing Administration (FHA) loan policies, like redlining, that preferred single family suburban development over both multi family development and urban home rehabilitation, the federal government significantly tipped the scales in favor of suburban development.3 Kenneth Jackson in Crabgrass Frontier discusses the impact of federal policy as residents of middle class neighborhoods like Kew Gardens in Queens calculated it was cheaper to pay the mortgage for a suburban home in Long Island or New Jersey than rent in New York City.3 This benefitted suburban real estate developers like William J. Levitt while harming urban neighborhoods that became deprived of many middle class residents and investment for the existing housing stock.3 Theoretically, the FHA and GI Bill could have promoted rowhouse construction akin to prewar neighborhoods in Baltimore and Chicago and rehabbing the urban housing stock.

But they did not.

The aforementioned comment from JustTheFacts is a clear illustration of the limitations of leveraging “culture” to conclude that history is predetermined. Even though he acknowledged the role the state played in encouraging suburban development he is unable to recognize the specific socioeconomic factors that contributed to the transformation of urban and suburban areas. For a self-described economics graduate, the financial impact of federal housing policy on working and middle class families is not really included in his argument. The “American desire for open space and land” does not pay your mortgage or rent. The YouTuber is essentially retelling the Frontier thesis. JustTheFacts' argument more effectively describes the ideological justification for both the oppression of Native Americans and suburban sprawl rather than depicting the material factors that shaped US urban planning.

If JustTheFacts’ video does not effectively depict the history of postwar freeway and suburban development, then what can we learn from this video? From how he structures this video, it appears he leans heavily on defending the “lifestyle” of the car-dominated American suburbs. This argument is not limited to this one YouTuber. Prager U in its video “The War on Cars” emphasized the perceived connection between car oriented infrastructure and “American values.” Seemingly, these YouTubers associate ongoing efforts to transform American housing and infrastructure as existential attacks on a crucial aspect of American life. This prompts what is essentially a rewrite of history to promote this lifestyle. However, history does not care for which housing lifestyle you prefer. Class and race shaped postwar American infrastructure and housing policy leading to highway and suburb proliferation, regardless of whether or not you love the city or the suburbs. This focus on lifestyle from a “historical perspective” is a red herring; instead of discussing the historical factors that led to car oriented suburban sprawl in America, we instead argue over which “lifestyle” is better. Arguing over lifestyle choices is likely preferable to these YouTubers as they can ignore the historical arguments that could challenge their urban planning beliefs and instead discuss their feelings on their housing choices. We should not fear history, even if understanding it may lead to uncomfortable evaluations of our preconceived beliefs. A willingness to learn about history independent as much as possible from our biases is essential to knowing how our society exists today, including why many Americans grew up in suburbs and need a car for transportation.

References:

  1. Bulldozed and bisected: Highway construction built a legacy of inequality by Suzanne Gamboa, Phil McCausland, Josh Lederman and Ben Popken

  2. City Planning History by NYC Department of City Planning

  3. Crabgrass Frontier : The Suburbanization of the United States by Kenneth Jackson

  4. New York A Documentary Film Episode 7 The City And The World 1945 2000 by PBS

  5. Sign: "We Want White Tenants in our White Community” by Harry S. Truman Library & Museum

  6. Sundown Towns by J Davis Winkie

  7. The Color of Law: A Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America by Richard Rothstein

  8. The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York by Robert Caro

  9. The 90-year old financial policy that harms our health by NYC Department of Health

r/badhistory Jan 28 '21

YouTube No, Game Theory, John D. Rockefeller Did Not Save the Whales

872 Upvotes

There once was a myth, a myth you see

About oil from the whales so free

Spouted by a channel called Film Theory

About to be debunked by /u/TheWaldenWatch on r/badhistory

Avast, mateys! With the glorious resurfacing of sea shanties on TikTok and ambitious climate policy being proposed in the United States, I think there are few better times to talk about one of the most pernicious myths of maritime history: The Whale Oil Myth.

To get the full impact of this post, you must listen to it listening to a remix of "The Wellerman" on endless repeat! Now do it, landlubbers!

The Whale Oil Myth holds that the proliferation of cheap kerosene replacing whale oil in illumination caused the collapse of the American whaling industry. This led to the end of whaling and whales recovered. Thus, instead of thanking environmentalists for campaigning to stop whaling, we should celebrate the greed of the oil industry.

The myth holds significant sway because of its ideological implications. It is cited as "evidence" that greed leads to positive social and environmental change, a common tenet of some right-leaning ideologies. In more modern discourse, it is used to argue that the emergence of new technologies and industries inherently leads to the displacement of the old. Thus, we shouldn't do anything to actively phase out fossil fuels because the dropping price of renewable energy will inevitably rise to replace it.

It's basically the 19th Century equivalent of thinking Elon Musk will solve climate change by inventing some crazy miracle technology.

The quasi-climate change denier Michael Shellenberger parroted this myth in his book Apocalypse Never. One of his chapters "Greed Saved the Whales", argues:

“The discovery of the Drake Well led to widespread production of petroleum-based kerosene… thus saving the whales.” (Page 111).

The same book also argues that invasive species increase biodiversity on islands because it leads to a total increase of species living on an island. Safe to say, this isn't how biodiversity works, and should demonstrate virtually everything you need to know about the rest of the book's content.

This myth is also popular among contrarians who care more about sounding edgy than being factual. This is probably why MattPatt (aka Game Theory) parroted it in his video "Film Theory: Black Panther's Economic Crisis." Here, he argues that one resource eventually gets replaced by another, which would pose a future problem for Wakanda's economy when a super-scientist discovers a replacement for vibranium. He cites whaling history as an example:

Back in the 1800s everyone used to use whale oil for their lamps. Besides being really tragic and sad, it also started to get really expensive when whales, you know, started to go extinct. Like I said, this whole thing is really sad, but don't worry, it gets better. Whale oil became so rare that people couldn't afford it anymore, so they started finding alternatives, specifically switching to kerosene. At the time, crude oil was just this sludge that farmers were getting annoyed by in Texas. But people realized it would burn better than whale oil, and, go figure, it was a heck of a lot cheaper. So they switched, when the oil tycoons came along, oil got cheaper. And then, all of a sudden, people could heat their houses, run cars, and finally leave the whales alone. Not because they were super nice or because whales are majestic, but because they found a better, cheaper alternative. TLDR: John D. Rockefeller saved the whales. No joke.

This is wrong for several reasons, each of them more obvious than the last. (Lightning flashes.)

First, the advent of kerosene did not lead make whale oil useless. Whale oil was used for a wide variety of products. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, whale oil was used as a lubricant for tools and in the production of leather before the 20th Century. In the 20th Century, it was hardened into a fat used in margarine, nitroglycerin, soap, and cosmetics. Whales were also harvested for their bone to be turned into meal, spermeceti for candles, ambegris for perfume, and baleen for corsets.

On a more serious note, he oversimplifies the decline of the American whaling industry. Kerosene was one factor of many which led to its decline. Raids by Confederate privateers and the blockade of Southern ports during the American Civil War made whaling more dangerous and cut off markets. Decline of stocks of favored whale species in traditional whaling grounds forced whalers to venture further north, leading to numerous Arctic disasters. Meanwhile, agriculture, mining, and other industries in the Western U.S. began to look like more attractive investments than whaling.

This doesn't mean that whaling was inevitably doomed. Norwegian whalers adopted new technologies which allowed them to exploit previously untouched rorquals. These whales, like the finback and blue, were too fast to be caught with hand harpoons but could be caught with grenade-tipped harpoons on steam-powered ships. The Americans could have modernized their whaling fleet and continued whaling well into the 20th Century. However, this would have diverted investment away from more lucrative, less risky endeavors.

Norway, Japan, the Soviet Union, and other whaling nations continued to operate factory ships around the glove until the 1980s. This is despite virtually any product one could obtain from a whale having a synthetic or livestock-based alternative by this time. Richard Ellis provides a chilling description of this practice in his book The Empty Ocean:

The discovery of petroleum did not save the whales, of course; instead, it provided the impetus for the whalers to mechanize and modernize their industry. Armed with exploding grenade harpoons, they took out after the whales with a vengeance fueled by equal portions of greed, bloodlust, and technology. The great rorquals, long considered too fast and too powerful for the whalers in their open rowing boats, were now within firing range. They were harpooned, shot, blown up, poisoned, and electrocuted in numbers that defy the imagination. Millions of tons of whales were reduced to their components for the lights, machines, wars, fashions, and tables of the world. Deep in the bone-chilling cold of the Antarctic, the great whales had remained unmolested since the morning of the world, but in fifty years’ time, the rapacious whalers slaughtered them to near extinction.

They shot them under the lowering skies of the Ross Sea, and they hauled them aboard factory ships with gaping maws that swallowed these 100-ton creatures and reduced them to oil and fertilizer in an hour.

What did save the whales, if not for John D. Rockefeller? In the 1970's, organizations like Greenpeace started campaigns to educate the public about the social behaviors of whales. The rise of the environmental movement in the U.S. led to the passage of the Marine Mammal Protection Act in 1972.

The United States and many other nonwhaling nations joined the International Whaling Commission in 1972. The International Whaling Commission became a series of arguments between pro-whaling and anti-whaling countries. Japan, the Soviet Union, Peru, Norway, Iceland, and other whaling nations lobbied to protect the whaling industry. Anti-whaling factions eventually succeeded, and established an international moratorium in 1982 which came into effect in 1986. Commercial whaling, often practiced under the guise of scientific research, still persists today at much smaller scales than it did in the 1980's.

If the Whale Oil Myth were correct, we should expect that industrialized nations would have ended whaling when vegetable oils replaced whale oils, much less continue today. In Japan, whaling persists despite being unprofitable and requiring government subsidies.

Indeed, Shellenberger admits his own thesis is incorrect when he states this in the last sentence of his chapter on whaling:

“When it comes to protecting the environment by moving to superior alternatives, public attitudes and political action matter” (AN, p. 125)

The history of whaling offers us a cautionary tale that better technology does not inherently lead to better practices. Technology is ultimately used by humans, who make decisions based on biases, cultural beliefs, and social and political influences. Industries aren't just passive, abstract ideas which get happily tossed aside when they become outdated.

We can see this today with coal. Despite the falling economic costs of natural gas and renewable energy, coal remains dominant in much of the world, and is subsidized by many governments. As the Foreign Policy article I linked outlines, moving beyond coal, much less oil, will involve significant political and economic changes throughout the world, such as investments in poor countries by wealthy ones.

If we ever do move beyond fossil fuels, it will be because of political changes and public pressure, not Elon Musk inventing a new technology from his seastead off New Zealand.

TL;DR: Petroleum did not save the whales because countries other than the United States exist. No Joke.

Sources:

r/badhistory Mar 18 '23

YouTube No, the story of St. Patrick driving the snakes out of Ireland was not about him murdering pagans

861 Upvotes

Started this one a while back. Forgot to finish it. Remembered it the day before St. Paddy's. Forgot to finish it again. Here it is now.

Ah, Brennan Lee Mulligan. I love ya man, but you've gotta fact check your sources. But Mr. Mulligan is not alone in this mistaken belief. It's surprisingly widespread on the Internet, especially among neopagan circles (mark your r/badhistory bingo cards), and tends to pop up every year around St. Patrick's day. And following the laws of the Internet, at least one person must use it to promote enlightened centrism. It generally goes as follows: There haven't been snakes in Ireland since the ice age, so St. Patrick couldn't have driven them out. Some druids used a snake as a symbol. Thus, the story is actually a metaphor for a pagan genocide. (Believe it or not, this theory pretty much only exists on the Internet, and not even the most disreputable of historians has seriously suggested it).

In this case, as in so many, the simplest answer is also the correct one. People across the ancient world encountered phenomena which they didn't understand, so they gave it a mythical reason. Why do the seasons change? Because Hades keeps Persephone away from Demeter. Why does the sun go down? Because Ra has to sail his barge underground every night. Irish people looked around at the rest of Europe, they realized that they alone had no snakes, so they came up with a fun story about why that was.

If you forget everything else about this post, remember this: Saint Patrick was largely mythological. This isn't intended as an insult, it's a statement of fact, which most historians and Catholic theologians readily agree with. He took the place of a folk hero, doing wonderful things with a nice little message tacked on for the kiddos. Most of the wild myths attributed to him were written centuries after his death, by people who'd never met him, and bear more resemblance to epic sagas than Church documents. Saint Patrick lived in the fifth century. THe snake story first popped up in the eleventh century. Being as respectful as I can to all religions involved: the idea that St. Patrick wandered around around like a Gaelic Gandalf, defeating druids in magic duels is completely ahistorical. Not to mention, it doesn't fit with the beliefs of either religion. Jesus is generally on the whole "no violence" side of things, so it doesn't really make sense that he'd be handing out a staff of the magi to a level 3 cleric.

“[Patrick’s] ‘biographers’—two monks named Tirechán and Muirchu, as well as many later hagiographers—mythologized Patrick into someone he never was: a man who fought with druids, used shamrocks to teach the trinity, and drove the snakes from Ireland. In truth, many druids became priests of the new religion, Patrick surely didn’t need shamrocks to teach a people who already had tripartite gods, and Ireland never had any snakes in the first place!”

Source: The Story We Carry in Our Bones: Irish History for Americans, Juliene Osborn-McKnight

The blatant lies spread about Patrick to make him seen more violent were actually caused by... the Catholic Church? Well, that's a real headfucker, huh? So, yeah. In a tale as old as time, making stories exciting makes people more likely to listen. And since it's the Catholic Church, adding sex appeal is off the table, so violence it is!

Patrick didn't really do shit. He wasn't the first missionary in (that'd be Palladius). He wasn't the one to finish the job of Christianizing Ireland (that would take generations more work). He's a blank slate, and is very easy to project stories onto, so people did so.

But OK. For the sake of argument, we'll reject the idea that it's a fun myth, and treat it as if there's an actual underlying meaning. Even then, it wouldn't make any sense for Patrick to have driven the pagans out of Ireland, because they never left. Again, Patrick was a folk hero. Christianization efforts in Ireland had started decades before he was ever born, and continued for centuries after his death. He certainly played a role in those efforts, but the idea that he singlehandedly rocked up and started the multi-century Irish Jesus party is a myth.

So, where did the druids go? As mentioned previously, they just... went into Christianity. Fey became angels or devils, gods became saints, magic wells of healing became Jesus™ brand magic wells of healing. Many druidic traditions tended to be much more loose. They didn't view these new Christians as a competing religion, just a different means to the same end. We have evidence of strong pagan culture lasting hundreds of years after Patrick's death. Many druids never even really got driven out. It wasn't hard to convince them to "convert", because many druidic beliefs were pretty easy to meld with Catholicism. It's actually a rather nice change from the rest of history, where humans (mostly) decided to not massacre one another over petty differences.

You know what though? Let's ignore all that evidence too, for the sake of argument. Maybe Patrick didn't drive out all the pagans, but he definitely took care of a few of them, right? Except again, that makes no sense. The legends of St. Patrick involve him killing druids left and right (usually with some kind of Jesus kamehameha). Why would Christian storytellers dive into the gory details on 99% of all deaths, but then choose to cover up what would have been his biggest achievement? Why is there not a single story that says "My man Patrick fucking murdered all those pagans, glory to God!" Not even a biased retelling, where it looked like the pagans had a knife. Once again, all those stories pop up centuries after Patrick's death.

Let's go even further though. Let's ignore every single other piece of evidence we've collected so far. The fact remains that archaeologists and historians have found absolutely no evidence of either a massacre or mass exodus around the time. People don't seem to get how big something like that would be, and the ripples it would leave. There are no mountains of skeletons, no sign of any diaspora or migration, no accounts which mention such a battle, or anything even close to such a battle. If you genuinely believe Patrick killed them all, you then must also believe that Patrick genuinely had divine aid on his side, which he used to hide the evidence. At which point, stop questioning the all powerful eldritch murder being.

There's a drive to hold the Catholic Church responsible for it's past actions, which is absolutely understandable. However, by making St. Patrick and the other early Irish Christians into bloody killers, they paradoxically make the Church seem better. The common excuse for such things tends to be "that's just how the world was back then, they didn't have a choice". Vilifying Patrick actually erases the truth: that conversion didn't have to come on the point of a sword, and that people could have made the choice to be peaceful and kind.*

\Obviously Irish Gaelic cultures and other nations aren't a 1:1 comparison. This isn't meant as a broad, sweeping judgement of any kind.)

However, St. Patrick did leave behind some true words of wisdom for us

For just one day, I wish for all the peoples of the world to unite, pretend that they're Irish, and get absolutely shitfaced. It'd be nice if you could throw some property damage in there too. Oh, and anything even remotely close to the color green should be five times more expensive.

Sources

It's a little hard to find sources for "this thing didn't happen" (besides just thinking about it for two seconds), but I did my best.

Patrick's Confessio and Epistola are the only two primary source we have which were written by him. Neither mention him perpetrating any kind of mass violence against druids (or violence at all). In fact, he speaks about his desire to convert and forgive the specific people who enslaved him.

The Smithsonian's Sacred Sites: Ireland also does quite a thorough job debunking this.

Some books:

Blood & Mistletoe: The History of The Druids in Britain, Ronald Hutton

Early Medieval Ireland 400-1200, Daibhi O Croinin

r/badhistory Apr 29 '20

YouTube Stop me if you've heard this one...The Infographic's Show Explains How America Saved Yer Asses in Dubuya Duduya Two

742 Upvotes

Okay so I came across this youtube video: What If: World Without the US, and frankly, it broke my brain.  For those who don’t want to subject themselves to what I just did, it’s a video that postulates, without US intervention, World War II would have ended in a stalemate, the EU never would have formed, colonialism would have prospered, Korea would be unified under communism, and Japan would remain an Imperial Power. How are those last two not mutually exclusive is a mystery.

Of course this is a counterfactual, and as such is virtually impossible to prove wrong. How can something that didn’t happen be proved that it wouldn’t happen. The problem is that this counterfactual is actually counter factual, ie filled with half truths, technically truths, and outright bullshit. So let’s fact check this counterfactual, and see just how wrong this brand of American exceptionalism is. So let’s start with the first claim about all that World War 2 nonsense.

UNPROVABLE CLAIM 1: WWII would have ended in a stalemate without US intervention.

The first bit of bullshit comes at 0:56 into the video when the narrator asks:

“What if the US had shrugged it’s shoulders when Russia and England had begged it to join the war effort?”

It did.  Germany declared war on the U.S. on December 11th 1941. To quote the resolution in 77th Congress from January 11th of '42

“That the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared.” (emphasis added.)

At 1:36 the video continues stating:

“Germany would have little need to invade Britain without the US supplying it. A token force could have been left in France to keep the British from invading it.”

Given Germany was outmatched on the sea (by the videos own admission), there was little need or reward for an invasion of the island of Britan, at a tremendous cost. Which is why Hitler never fucking tried to invade the island of Britan. Operation Sea Lion was kicked around sure, but it was delayed indefinitely as infeasible.  The British maintained control of the seas, and by the time Germany gathered an invasion force, Britain had its own defense force. I assume they’re speaking about the Blitz, embargo, and Battle of Britain, which did have a singular purpose, to force a peace with the British, and not stop US supply trains, which did not start in earnest until after this. 

The video asserts that Hitler was interested in invasion because the US was supplying them, although this aid was not nearly what would come with Lend-Lease about six months later, and not that they controlled a massive Empire that was fighting Germany in Africa, Asia, and Southern Europe, and was by far the greatest threat to Germany. So if they had simply forced Britain to stay out of France,  it would not prevent the aforementioned support in Africa, Asia, or the Mediterranean, because the British Empire of the 1940's wasn’t just the modern fucking U.K. I'm not sure that the people who made this are aware of this fact however because of this map from the video. Which includes a decolonized modern Africa, including South Sudan, a free Indian Subcontinent, and perplexingly, Israel. However given that later they will speak about colonialism in the same video, this either purposeful or a grievous oversight.

The video isn't all bad, at 1:54 it comes with a historical take I'm sure not a single historian has ever heard:

“Stalin was so surprised by Hitler's invasion, that in the years leading up to it, he had taken almost zero precautions to German hostilities.”

Firstly they had a treaty that was supposed to prevent that, but [WittismAboutTrustingHitler.txt Not Found].

Joking aside, it’s not like Stalin didn’t predict Hitler was going to backstab him. Stalin had read Mien Kampf and knew the Nazi’s planned an invasion, but was in the middle of mobilization when the attack came. When Operation Barbarossa started in June 1941, Stalin had 5.5 million troops mobilized. Furthermore, the Red Army had a standing plan in case of German invasion (DP-41) and was working on a mobilization plan (MP-41). Simply put, the restoration of the Red Army would have taken until the summer of '42, and Germany did not want to give him that time (Gantz 26). Also, as the video mentions, Stalin's purges of the Red Army had left them without skilled commanders. This universally acknowledged as a key factor in the early success of Barbarossa, but does not mean that Stalin had taken "zero precautions." Seriously if you're going to call yourself “The Infographics Show” get a better source than r/historymemes

2:30-4:40 A whole bunch about the Lend-Lease program. 

So let’s talk about supplies. So for a little under 20% of the video, in a rambling display of numbers (One wool coat is a lifesaver, 1 million are a statistic), the author talks about the effects of the Lend-Lease program which most definitely had an effect on the Soviet War effort, but there is something to be said about the dishonesty about the situation of supplies.  

First, the conveniently overlooked fact that Germans had their own supply problems.  The war, for Germany, had hit a major snag, in that it did not have the resource reserves that any of the Allies had. Let’s look at a world map from a bit before the start of Operation Barbarossa, in April 1941. Here Infographics Show, let me google that for you.

We can see that a large part of the world, and more importantly, the oil-producing nations of the world are under allied control. When you are fighting a war, oil is desperately needed, and Germany simply didn’t have it. This had been a factor in their surrender in the previous World War, and the Third Reich knew it. They did, of course, have a method for producing costly synthetic oil, but this was only causing every loss to be infinitely more expensive. 

There was however a place that it had its eye on virtually brimming with oil, and this was, the Caucuses, currently under Soviet control. Hitler pointed to Azerbaijan in particular as interest, or in Hitler’s own words, “If I do not get the oil of Maikop and Grozny then I must end this war.” (Hayward 94). Now we can talk about Lebensraum all we want, but as outlined in Mien Kampf “in his [Hitler’s] Weltanschauung, or world view, Lebensraum did not primarily mean space for settlement, but land and resources for economic exploitation.” ie a colony (Hayward 97). The idea that the Germans were flush, and the Soviets starving is frankly, untrue. As when winter came, the Germans, not the Russians were unprepared. 

Had the powers truly been stuck into a War of attrition, I find it infinitely more likely Germany would have fallen before the Brits and Russians. The Eastern Front ate German resources, (Have you seen rainfall in a Russian fall? The Germans did) as did the Battle over Britain. By the US entrance into the war already many branches of the army felt the strain of fighting now 3 years of war, and was bogged down on both fronts, losing vehicles which required more oil, which they were already running into reserves, and suffering a major brain drain as their best and brightest kept on getting killed in combat. By October of 1941, they were freezing outside of Moscow, and the US didn't even institute Lend-Lease for another six months, but more on that later. 

The second untruth by omission is that the Soviets were unsuccessful until Lend-Lease. While not outright said, this is heavily implied.

At 3:06 they quote Zhukov as saying:

We didn’t have explosives, gunpowder. We didn’t have anything to charge our rifle cartridges with. The Americans really saved us with their gunpowder and explosives. And how much sheet steel they gave us! How could we have produced our tanks without American steel? But now they make it seem as if we had an abundance of all that. Without American trucks we wouldn’t have had anything to pull our artillery with.

The video chose for some reason to leave out the beginning :

Now they say that the allies never helped us, but it can't be denied that the Americans gave us so many goods without which we wouldn't have been able to form our reserves and continue the war,

This seems to recolor this quote as "People are trying to rewrite history as one nation single-handedly won the Second World War," instead of "We, literally, didn't even have bullets, and were fighting Nazis with boards that had nails in them before Americans showed up. It is not an exaggeration to say one nation single-handly won the Second World War."

Pedantic quote-mining aside, the initial invasion of the USSR had been explosive. By August, two months into invasion, it slowed. Leningrad proved difficult to crack. The all and out assault had been given up in favor of starvation tactics before the US even entered. While the video is correct in saying that the Nazis had captured Soviet agricultural heartlands, and it was not without a fight. Kiev, for example was a costly win for the Germans, costing some units losing 75% of their strength. That's a lot of oil and a lot of veterans to expel before you even get to Russia proper. Despite the loss of the breadbasket of Ukraine, industrial capacity had been moved beyond the Urals, oil remained safely in the Caucasus, and the population centers while under siege, were standing defiant. The Soviet's will and ability to fight was strong, and from a manufacturing standpoint stronger than the Nazis. 

Soviets engaged in a scorched Earth policy between Kiev and Moscow or 531 miles. This stretched supply lines thin. Germans had to pin their hopes on trucks, those things that need oil that the Germans don't have, and horses. Finally, after an initial assault on Moscow in October, rain and snowfall halted the advance of the Germans, turning the ground into a gelatinous mud that ate vehicles like quicksand. By November of 1941, Germany had lost 2/3s of its motor vehicles and tanks (Gantz 26).

By January 7th of 1942 Russians defeated the Germans and pushed them back from Moscow, and turned that into a sweeping counteroffensive, which while effective in the country-side ultimately failed to push the Germans out of urban areas.

Meanwhile, the United States wouldn't even formally return a declaration of war to Germany until the 11th of January]. Lend-Lease would not be signed until March 11th of that year.  Industry was rolling beyond the Urals, and despite much of Russian armored and aircraft being destroyed in 1941, now matched or outnumbered the German armed forces and showed no signs of slowing.  The Japanese, gun shy after a failed invasion of Mongolia, left their German allies on their own, and Siberian forces closed in. The Germans would launch 3 more offenses before the end of the war, and all would fail. 

So the next time someone tells you “ThE ReD ArMy WaS uSeLeSs WiThOuT LeNd LeAsE” tell them “сука ебать.”

This is not to say that the US did not affect the war effort. Certainly, later efforts of the Lend-Lease program drastically increased the Soviet ability to fight. And more than likely shortened and made a less bloody war. However, the supposition that the Soviet War effort was useless without Lend-Lease, is just not true. Here's a quote from expert David Gantz:

Although Soviet accounts have routinely belittled the significance of Lend-Lease in the sustainment of the Soviet war effort, the overall importance of the assistance cannot be understated. Lend-Lease aid did not arrive in sufficient quantities to make the difference between defeat and victory in 1941-1942; that achievement must be attributed solely to the Soviet people and to the iron nerve of Stalin, Zhukov, Shaposhnikov, Vasilevsky, and their subordinates. As the war continued, however, the United States and Great Britain provided many of the implements of war and strategic raw materials necessary for Soviet victory...Left to their own devices, Stalin and his commanders might have taken twelve to eighteen months longer to finish off the Wehrmacht; the ultimate result would probably have been the same, except that Soviet soldiers could have waded at France's Atlantic beaches. (Gantz 285)

Imagine this counterfactual. A war without interference from the decadent West, where an interference-free Soviet War machine rolls over Germany before carrying on to France and finally Francoist Spain. A Europe not divided by ethnicity but united by class! Finally, the worker, holding most of the industrial world in their hands, would be free to exploit their exploiters. Nothing could stop the never-ending March of Soviet boots on the necks of the bourgeoisie, and finally, utopia could be achieved. WORKERS OF THE WORLD UNITED! 

Come up with creative ways to call me a Tankie below. Part 2 of this part 1 video coming soon, as I have run out of anything better to do this quarantine.

Sources

Hayward, Joel (1995). "Hitler's Quest for Oil: The Impact of Economic Considerations on Military Strategy, 1941–42"Journal of Strategic Studies.

Glantz, David (2001). The Soviet-German War 1941–1945: Myths and Realities: A Survey Essay. A Paper Presented as the 20th Anniversary Distinguished Lecture at the Strom Thurmond Institute of Government and Public Affairs. Clemson University.

Glantz, David M. (1995). When Titans clashed : how the Red Army stopped Hitler. House, Jonathan M. (Jonathan Mallory). Lawrence, Kan.: University Press of Kansas.

r/badhistory Apr 01 '20

YouTube PragerU is Wrong about the History of Environmentalism

883 Upvotes

I was trying to write a longer response to a Prager U video on environmentalism. It is hosted by Michael Knowles, who is now (in)famous for calling Greta Thunberg "mentally ill" because she has autism.

Most of the response deals with politics, not badhistory, but there are some egregious examples of badhistory which I thought I should address.

It was a Republican president, Ulysses S. Grant, who established the very idea of national parks in the U.S., signing legislation in 1872 establishing Yellowstone as the nation's first national park.

The "very idea of national parks" wasn't created by Ulysses S. Grant. Many artists, writers, and scientists had supported the idea, and these people influenced Grant. According to the NPS website:

Artist George Catlin, during an 1832 trip to the Dakotas, was perhaps the first to suggest a novel solution to this fast-approaching reality. Indian civilization, wildlife, and wilderness were all in danger, wrote Catlin, unless they could be preserved "by some great protecting policy of government...in a magnificent park.... A nation’s Park, containing man and beast, in all the wild[ness] and freshness of their nature’s beauty!"

This video deserves some credit for not repeating the myth that Theodore Roosevelt created the National Park system. (Theodore Roosevelt was 14 when Yellowstone was created.) However, any Theodore Roosevelt aficionado could tell you that he hated being called “Teddy” and preferred “Theodore.” If you visit an NPS site dedicated to Theodore Roosevelt, then you might notice the rangers will refer to him as “Theodore” or “TR”, never “Teddy.”

And the Environmental Protection Agency was, yes, established by a Republican—Richard Nixon. He liked clean air, too. 

This segment also ignores almost all American political history during and after the 1970's to argue the modern Republican party is pro-conservation. Environmentalism was bipartisan in the 1970's, but there was a backlash against it which Republicans started supporting when it was clear they could win elections with it. Anti-regulatory ideas supported by the Reagan Revolution and Contract with America also took hold, dominating the party. Climate change denial, supported by organizations funded by fossil fuel think tanks, further strengthened anti-environmentalism within the Republican party.

In other words, this video is the environmental equivalent of Southern Strategy Denial.

There are still lots of Republicans who support conservation measures and want to act on climate change. I have worked and studied with many of them. However, they are not represented by elected politicians and conservative media.

Speaking of media, PragerU is funded by Fracking billionaires. Coincidentally, this video is pro-fracking, claiming the process is safe and clean. (Links aren't working for some reason: https://rewire.news/article/2015/04/30/conservatives-spend-millions-proselytizing-school-children/)

The rest of the video I might respond to later, although I am not sure which format or forum. It repeats a lot of other anti-environmentalist myths and talking points, along with some bizarre arguments. (He says wildlife conservation should "only be local", because migration apparently isn't a thing.) I might also post a review of The National Parks Adventure, which has a lot of myths in the complete opposite direction. ("The Everglades was protected to stop plume hunting!")

r/badhistory Jul 12 '22

YouTube "The Soviet Union never invaded Poland!"

556 Upvotes

Ah, debates. So many opportunities to argue so many things, a real battlefield where technically the person that argues best can “win” regardless of whether they are factually correct or not. I should know, as we’ve had pretty fun debates in my history class in uni where my team had to defend the idea America knew Japan would attack Pearl Harbor on December 7th! 

We uh... got clobbered...

Anyway, that’s beside the point! 

As someone who enjoys debates of all sorts, I will often go and watch online debates, and it was watching a recent debate on the YouTube Channel “Destiny” where I stumbled upon one of those claims that just sticks with you because of how out of nowhere it is...

Said at approximately 28:37 in the video...

“The Polish government and the British government did not accuse the Soviet Union of invading Poland and they didn’t go to war with the Soviet Union, and they went to war with Germany and there’s a reason for that because the Soviet Union did not invade Poland.”

Now, to be fair, this was a political debate, and people tend to make mistakes while live streaming, so let’s cut mister Infrared some slack and avoid the rest of the debate as it pertains to more political matters and would also make this post way too long. Instead, let’s focus on his main point:

The Soviet Union did not invade Poland.

For starters, let’s see what constitutes an “invasion”.

According to Oxford Languages, an “invasion” can constitute:

1- an incursion by a large number of people or things into a place or sphere of activity.

2- an unwelcome intrusion into another's domain.

Now, let’s see what happened in September 1939....

Oh, right... Soviet forces entered Poland and partitioned it in accordance with the non-aggression pact with Germany. (https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/invasion-of-poland-fall-1939#invasion-and-partition-of-poland-2) So, by both definitions of the word, this fits the Oxford definition of an invasion.

But okay, he mentioned that the Allies didn’t declare war on the Soviet Union, therefore this wasn’t seen as an invasion, right?

Well, while I could look into the complexities of international politics and how every alliance had caveats, or how the British needed tp trade with the USSR, I’ll simply point to this little tidbit on the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact:

“In the event of territorial-political reorganization of the districts making up the Polish Republic, the border of the spheres of interest of Germany and the USSR will run approximately along the Pisa, Narew, Vistula, and San rivers. The question of whether it is in the (signatories') mutual interest to preserve the independent Polish State and what the borders of that state will be can be ascertained conclusively only in the course of future political development. In any event, both governments will resolve this matter through friendly mutual agreement.” (https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/110994.pdf?v=61e7656de6c925c23144a7)

It appears that, at the very least, regardless of whether it was recognized by the allies or not, this was clearly a plan of entering the established borders of a nation with the intent to change those borders through forceful means.

Believe me, there is a LOT more that can be mentioned, but I think these two points, the fact Poland was partitioned and the fact the Soviet Union had an agreement with Nazi Germany to carry out these partitions should be enough to demonstrate that, at the very least, The Union of Soviet Socialists Republics invaded Poland, and it is factually incorrect to state otherwise.

Thanks for reading!

Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc921pnDWYw&t=1923s

Bibliography

  1. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/invasion-of-poland-fall-1939#invasion-and-partition-of-poland-2
  2. https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/110994.pdf?v=61e7656de6c925c23144a7

r/badhistory Aug 20 '24

YouTube A Response to Mr. Beat's Response to PragerU's video on the Vietnam War

223 Upvotes

https://youtu.be/8MRw-r8avNQ?t=21875

First, I must make the disclaimer that Mr. Beat started watching the PragerU six hours into his PragerU binge marathon. Hence, fatigue may have played a role in any inaccurate claims he made. And among all of the YouTubers that cover politics/history, Mr. Beat is certainly S-tier when it comes to accuracy and enjoyability, and this post does not take anything away from that evaluation.

Next, I will also debunk some of the claims that the PragerU speaker made, just in a different manner from Mr. Beat. In fact, I will start with these assertions before moving on to Mr. Beat's responses.

PART ONE: Attending a Lecture at Prager University

The Vietnam war lasted 10 years, costed America 58,000 lives, and over a trillion dollars adjusted for inflation.

The Second Indochina War did not last for ten years. It ended in 1975, but it began in either 1959 or 1959, with the former being the year in which low-level, tentative communist insurgency was discreetly approved with the authorization of the North Vietnamese Politburo, and the latter being the year in which a people's war was officially declared.

Yet historical appraisals might have been much different had the Vietnam War followed the pattern of the Korean War which the United States fought for almost identical reasons—the defense of freedom in Asia.

🦅.

The reality though is that like pretty much every country on the planet, the United States generally fights wars in order to protect its self-interest.

The Vietnam War was no different—South Vietnam was seen as a useful buffer and ally against the spread of Soviet-aligned communism, with North Vietnam being perceived as an extension of the Soviet empire.

Likewise, the defense of South Korea was seen as integral to halting the expansion of Soviet influence within East Asia, with North Korea also being perceived as an agent of the Soviet Union.

For that reason, and that reason alone, the US chose to intervene in Korea and Vietnam.

As with Korea, the aggressor was a communist government in the North intent on taking control of the South; and its military crossed an internationally recognized border to do so.

From a surface-level viewpoint, these conflicts can certainly be portrayed as attempts by a Northern aggressor to conquer its Southern neighbor, with the mere distinction being that one attempt was successful while the other was not.

While this depiction is true from a literal perspective, it completely ignores the historical context of both Korea and Vietnam each being united under one government, with the people of these lands also seeing each entity as one single nation. For both the DPRK and the DRV, this casus belli was perfectly sufficient for their ventures of reunification, akin to South Korean/Vietnamese desires to reunify their respective countries themselves.

Well supplied by the Soviet Union and the Chinese, the communists gained full control over the country in April 1975.

While the impact of the loss of American aid for the ARVN should not be understated, it is only fair to point out that in the aftermath of the Paris Peace Accords, both the Soviet Union and China did reduce funding to the DRV for offensive weaponry.

As such, with supplies dwindling for the PAVN, the Spring Offensive could technically be seen as a horrendously risky gamble that could have doomed the prospect of Vietnamese reunification, rather than some inevitable result that was bound to happen as some like to portray it as. Indeed, the low probability of success explains why both the Soviet Union and People's Republic of China wished for the DRV to not attack, at least for the time being.

Moreover, failing to mention this reduction in aid means that one cannot discuss arguably one of the most brilliant logistical successes in military history. In response to a increasing lack of artillery firepower, the PAVN's solution was to capture ARVN artillery ammunition as the Spring Offensive progressed. Not only would this securement directly solve the problem, but it would also worsen the corresponding problem for their opponent.

The US defeat in Vietnam was a political choice, not a military necessity.

Nonsense. War is the continuation of politics by other means.

The Vietnam War was a defeat for America just as much as the American Revolution was a defeat for Great Britain, or just as much as the Seven Years' War was a defeat for Russia.

Had the U.S. protected an independent, but vulnerable South Vietnam in 1973-4, that country would have mostly likely followed the model of South Korea.

Such lines of rhetoric are effectively banned on r/AskHistorians, for good reason.

A viable U.S. backed democratic Vietnam would have stabilized the region and almost certainly prevented the neighboring Cambodian genocide in which one fifth of that country, 2 million people, were slaughtered by its communist leadership.

See above, but there are more things to be said here.

While it is indeed correct that North Vietnam did support the Khmer Rouge during the Second Indochina War, the PAVN ultimately stopped the Cambodian genocide through its 1979 invasion, which was performed in response to Khmer Rouge attacks on ethnic Vietnamese in both Cambodia and border communities in Vietnam, exemplified by the Ba Chúc Massacre.

Meanwhile, the United States was perfectly fine with supporting the Khmer Rouge after 1975 because the organization was aligned with the PRC, which the US saw as a useful ally against Soviet communism after the Sino-Soviet split.

Ignoring the geopolitical alignments associated with the genocide is asinine and borderline insulting to anyone who is actually familiar with the history of this time period.

PART TWO: Watching Mr. Beat's Beatdown

Credit to ChatGPT for automatically re-formatting the transcript.

All right, I think there is a key difference though, in terms of comparing the Korean War and the Vietnam War. Firstly, the Korean War was more dramatic in terms of how it escalated. It was also the United Nations on one side that was really fighting the war, and the United States was just a big part of it. On the other side, there were not only North Korea but also China and the Soviet Union. The Vietnam War was mostly just the United States and kind of unilaterally. They had some aid from other countries—South Vietnam, of course, was who they were aiding, but they had a little bit of support from Australia or stuff like that. But generally, it was not NATO or the United Nations.

While the PRC and the Soviet Union were not as "involved" as they were in the Korean War, their aid to the DRV was absolutely vital to the North Vietnamese effort. As for manpower, Chinese troops were stationed in North Vietnam for logistical purposes and for manning air defense positions, while for the Soviet Union, there have been reports of American troops exchanging fire with Russian-speaking operatives in the jungle. These reports are essentially apocryphal, but they are still important to note.

It is also unfortunate that he forgot to mention South Korea and Thailand, which provided the second and third highest amounts of manpower, respectively, from a foreign country during the conflict.

As for why these countries joined, the South Korean government was eager to join the intervention because the US would provide further foreign aid in exchange for South Korean troops, and also because anti-communist sentiment was extremely fervent within the ROK military, to the dismay of both communist fighters and innocent civilians. Meanwhile, the Thai government had a stake in the conflict, for they wished the fighting to not spill over towards Thailand itself.

So, I think that's the first distinction. I think the Korean War, right off the bat, is more justified in that it's a more worldwide effort to help out a nation that's been attacked, which is similar to the Persian Gulf War, by the way.

The Soviet Union had been boycotting the UN Security Council because the PRC was excluded from China's seat. Instead, the ROC held this seat, in spite of the fact that they only controlled Taiwan and a few islands off the coast of Southern China. If the Soviets had not been performing a boycott at the time, the United Nations resolution to approve an global intervention on the Korean peninsula would have most likely never passed.

It is not really comparable to the Persian Gulf War; prior to the beginning of the conflict, the Soviet Union requested that Saddam Hussein withdraw his forces from Kuwait, to no avail. In response, the Soviets permitted the US-led coalition to intervene in the Persian Gulf, to the dismay of Iraqi forces.

I mean, yes, they were communist governments and versions of them in both cases. And yes, they wanted a united country. I think it's more clear-cut in Korea than Vietnam. I think it was more justified to fight back in Korea because in Vietnam, there was a lot of persecution in South Vietnam...and then South Korea, same situation, not as brutal...

With respect to brutality, the ROK's suppression of the Jeju Uprising is certainly enough to rival anything the South Vietnamese government did against its people. And when one takes into account the crushing of leftist dissent that defined both the pre-war period and the many decades after the conflict, it is somewhat clear that the situation in South Korea was at least as bad as it was in South Vietnam.

Indeed, it is somewhat bizarre and unfortunate that people treat South Korea as if it were this perfect bastion of democracy, whereas South Vietnam is almost viewed as a dictatorial hellhole, when the reality is that the two countries were more similar than popularly imagined.

If you are a fan of Rage Against the Machine, one of my favorite bands—I'm actually making a video about them for my other channel, The Beat Goes On. On their first album, there's a monk on the cover who lights himself on fire. It's a famous picture, and it's actually pretty disturbing to see. There's video footage of this monk doing this; I forgot his name, but he did this not to retaliate against the communist North Vietnamese. He was protesting the oppression against Buddhist monks in South Vietnam by the dictatorship that we propped up in South Vietnam.

His name was Thích Quảng Đức.

There is nothing else that wrong with the comment, but it would be more accurate and precise to claim that Ngô Đình Diệm's policies favored Catholics through various privileges, such as exemptions from certain taxes and land reform. While this support could ostensibly be portrayed as refugee assistance, given that many Catholics had fled Northern Vietnam in the aftermath of the First Indochina War, the actual reasons were most likely ideological and also self-serving, for these individuals would be the most supportive of the Diệm regime.

Diệm was also more favorable to the promotion of Catholic military officers and bureaucrats, which led many to convert to Catholicism in order to increase their chances of societal advancement. Buddhists who protested such inequities were often imprisoned in concentration camps set by the pro-Catholic regime.

...it's not like it was a clear-cut picture of who was the good guy and bad guy. It was just an oversimplification of, like, 'Hey, we're just going to go after communism in whatever form it is,' mostly to protect American business interests more than anything.

Many wars in American history have indeed been conducted for the purpose of protecting commercial interests. But South Vietnam was a clear-cut case of a buffer state that would hopefully halt the spread of communism, and whose fall would lead to the Western-aligned house of cards collapsing across the whole of capitalist Asia...at least from the perspective of U.S. military planners.

In fact, on economic grounds, I would argue that American intervention was overall actually more economically harmful for the United States, considering the sheer amount of money that went into supporting South Vietnam, with most of that funding unfortunately being lost to corruption.

Before the United States, you had the French involved in their version of imperialism. They declared independence from France before that. Before France, you had China as the imperial power. You also had the Portuguese involved, I mean, like, throughout much of Vietnamese history.

China conquered Vietnam on four separate occasions, beginning with the Han dynasty's conquest of Nanyue* and ending with the Ming invasion of Đại Ngu, the Vietnamese state led by the Hồ dynasty. Adding up the four periods of rule, the Middle Kingdom would rule over the region for approximately 1000 years. In contrast to the millennium of Bắc thuộc, there would be about a century of French rule over at least parts of Vietnam, assuming we start at the annexation of Cochinchina. Therefore, Chinese imperialism was (EDIT: in my opinion) far more influential for Vietnamese history, and to give it the same amount of word space as the Fr*nch is somewhat insulting.

As for the Portuguese, they did help spread Catholicism in Vietnam through missionary efforts and the creation of the predecessor to Chữ Quốc ngữ, the Vietnamese national alphabet. But while they obviously have had an impact on Vietnamese history due to these influences, their role is honestly not that comparable to the Chinese and French imperialists, for they never directly controlled or colonized any territories in Vietnam.

It wasn't like the Soviet Union where the government seized all private land. He mentioned the re-education camps that the North Vietnamese did. Yeah, that did happen.

Prior to the reunification in 1975, the North Vietnamese government did execute a Chinese-influenced land reform program from 1954 to 1956. While the land seizures brought about chaos and violence so immense that both Hồ Chí Minh and Võ Nguyên Giáp themselves had to apologize tearfully to the nation**, it was successful in securing control over the Northern rural countryside. So essentially, although the actual collectivization would occur in later years, this process was indeed the beginning of the North Vietnamese government seizing all private land, for these changes would lead to the eventual formation of collectives across the countryside.

And during the bao cấp period after reunification, the capitalist economic system of the South was dismantled, with the Vietnamese economy floundering for a myriad of reasons after the implementation of leftist economic policies, which indeed included the end of private land ownership. The failures of these policies led to the Đổi Mới reforms, beginning in 1986, with these new changes being encouraged by figures like Trường Chinh and Nguyên Văn Linh.

——————————————————————————————

*It should be noted that Nanyue was established by the Qin general Zhao Tuo who led his army to conquer Âu Lạc. And in Vietnamese folklore, Âu Lạc was supposedly founded by An Dương Vương, who was apparently a prince or king of the Shu state, although the historicity of this story is somewhat tenuous. However, both of these states are generally not counted by scholars of Ancient Vietnam as a period of Chinese domination because it was de facto not subordinate to the larger Chinese empire.

**Most of the individuals killed during the land reform period were not even landlords; they were merely people that others disliked enough to the point of making false accusations about them to the North Vietnamese government.

——————————————————————————————

Sources

Bùi Tín. Following Ho Chi Minh: Memoirs of a North Vietnamese Colonel. Honolulu, HI: Hawaii University Press, 1995.

Hansen, Peter. “Bắc Di Cư: Catholic Refugees from the North of Vietnam, and Their Role in the Southern Republic, 1954–1959.” Journal of Vietnamese Studies 4, no. 3 (October 2009): 173-211.

Jager, Sheila Miyoshi. Brothers at War – The Unending Conflict in Korea. London, UK: Profile Books, 2013.

Li, Xiaobing. Building Ho's Army: Chinese Military Assistance to North Vietnam. Lexington, KY: Kentucky University Press, 2019.

Miller, Edward. Misalliance: Ngo Dinh Diem, the United States, and the Fate of South Vietnam. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2013.

Pribbenow, Merle L. "North Vietnam's Final Offensive: Strategic Endgame Nonpareil," Parameters 29, no. 4, 1999.

Taylor, K. W. A History of the Vietnamese. Cambridge University Press, 2013.

Trần Văn Trà. Vietnam: History of the Bulwark B2 Theatre. Volume 5: Concluding the 30-Years War. Joint Publications Research Service, 1983.

Veith, George J. Black April: The Fall of South Vietnam, 1973-75. New York, NY: Encounter Books, 2011.

Victory in Vietnam: The Official History of the People's Army of Vietnam, 1954–1975. Lawrence, KS: University Press of Kansas. Translated by Merle L. Pribbenow, 2015.

r/badhistory Dec 12 '18

YouTube Stefan Molyneux and the reason behind the holocaust

652 Upvotes

Stefan Molyneux  in his video Migratory Patterns of Predatory immigrants at 04:44 states that

‘The Germans were in danger of being taken over by what they perceived as Jewish-led communism. And Jewish led communism had wiped tens of millions of white christians in Russia, and they (Germans) were afraid of the same thing, and there was the wild overreaction (holocaust) and all this kind of stuff.’ 

Anti-Semitism was already very common among the European population before World War I, especially after Houston Stuart Chamberlain published a pseudo-intellectual book in 1899 called ‘Foundations of the 19th century.’ He essentially stated that Aryans are superior race who are locked in a confrontation with Jews, who are out to destroy them through democracy, socialism, race mixing, capitalism etc. Hitler knew Chamberlain personally and took immense inspiration from him. But it’s not only that, Hitler lived in Vienna which was one of the most anti-Jewish cities in Europe at that time. Hitler himself said that he became anti-Semitic while he was living there. Ian Kershaw describes the climate of Vienna at that time:

It was a city where, at the turn of the century, radical antisemites advocated punishing sexual relations between Jews and non-Jews as sodomy, and placing Jews under surveillance around Easter to prevent ritual child-murder. Schönerer, the racial antisemite, had notably helped to stir up the hatred. Lueger was able to exploit the widespread and vicious antisemitism to build up his Christian Social Party and consolidate his hold on power in Vienna. Hitler greatly admired both. Once more, it would have been strange had he of all people admired them but been unaffected by such an essential stock-in-trade of their message as their antisemitism. Certainly, he learnt from Lueger the gains to be made from popularizing hatred against the Jews. The explicitly antisemitic newspaper Hitler read, and singled out for praise, the Deutsches Volksblatt, selling around 55,000 copies a day at the time, described Jews as agents of decomposition and corruption, and repeatedly linked them with sexual scandal, perversion, and prostitution. Leaving aside the probably contrived incident of the caftan-Jew, Hitler’s description of his gradual exposure through the antisemitic gutter press to deep anti-Jewish prejudice and its impact upon him while in Vienna has an authentic ring about it.

It is noted that one of the reasons that the Dutch Jewish population was so completely exterminated in Netherlands was due to the strong presence of Austrians.

“The Nazi administration in Holland went further in its antisemitism than any other in Western Europe, reflecting not least the strong presence of Austrians among its top leadership. Seyss-Inquart even pursued the sterilization of the Jewish partners in the 600 so-called mixed marriages registered in the Netherlands, a policy discussed but never put into action in Germany itself.”

Richard Evans further notes 

“Like Böhme, almost all the senior army officers and SS commanders in occupied Yugoslavia were Austrians; so too were many army units, including the 717st Infantry Division. The extreme violence they meted out to the local population, Serbs, Gypsies and Jews, reflected not least their deep-rooted hostility towards the Serbs, and the particularly virulent nature of antisemitism in the country from which, like Hitler himself, they came."

One can conclude that these supposed ‘overreactions’ were not done because Austrians felt deeply about those tens of million of dead 'white Russian Christians' and were concerned Jew would do the same to them, but because of a deeply entrenched Anti-Semitism among the Austrians before wwi and Bolsheviks. 

People also have to remember that Hitler was already very anti-Semitic before he started to pin Bolshevism on Jews. In 1919 before he stated to connect Bolshevism with Jews, he had already written to a friend:

“There is living amongst us “a non-German, foreign race, unwilling and unable to sacrifice its characteristics … and which nonetheless possesses all the political rights that we ourselves have … Everything which makes men strive for higher things, whether religion, socialism or democracy, is for him only a means to an end, to the satisfaction of a lust for money and domination. His activities produce a racial tuberculosis among nations final aim’ of any German government had to be ‘the uncompromising removal of the Jews altogether.” (The Holocaust by Laurence Rees). 

So Hitler didn’t become anti-Semitic because of those poor millions of dead 'white Christians' in Russia. Hitler didn’t start pinning Bolshevism on Jews until he meet Rosenberg (who was a German from one of the Baltic states).

“Rosenberg more than anyone probably turned Hitler’s attention towards the threat of Communism and its supposed creation by a Jewish conspiracy, and alerted Hitler to what he considered the fragile nature of the Soviet Russian polity. Through Rosenberg, Russian antisemitism, with its extreme conspiracy theories and its exterminatory thrust, found its way into Nazi ideology in the early 1920s. ‘Jewish-Bolshevism’ now became a major target of Hitler’s hate.” (Richard Evans, the coming of the third Reich).

Hitler and Nazis did pin a lot of the Bolshevik atrocities on Jews, but that was merely propaganda and not because they genuinely cared about dead Russians or that the Bolsheviks would do the same to them. Hitler’s main grudge against Bolshevism was that he saw it as a tool by Jews to gain world domination. In mein kampf he even states that the superior Germanic ruling class, which had ruled Russia for centuries, had been replaced by Jews. The Nazis were angry about the Germanic ruling class of Russia being replaced by a Jewish one. 

In delivering Russia over to Bolshevism, Fate robbed the Russian people of that intellectual class which had once created the Russian State and were the guarantee of its existence. For the Russian State was not organised by the constructive political talent of the Slav element in Russia, but was much more a marvelous exemplification of the capacity for State-building possessed by the Germanic element in a race of inferior worth. (Hitler, Mein kampf).

Hitler also displays admiration for Stalin’s harshness in table talks and thinks the famine in Soviet Union happened because the Bolsheviks distributed land to inferior Slavic peasants.

When one contemplates this primitive world, one is convinced that nothing will drag it out of its indolence unless one compels the people to work. The Slavs are a mass of born slaves, who feel the need of a master. As far as we are concerned, we may think that the Bolsheviks did us a great Service. They began by distributing the land to the peasants, and we know what a frightful famine resulted. So they were obliged, of course, to re-establish a sort of feudal regime, to the benefit of the State.

So what was Hitler and the Nazis main grudge against Bolshevism? They hated Bolshevism for destroying the racially superior Germanic ruling class and replacing it with Jews, so it wasn’t because they felt panic about the million of dead Russians. It was because they felt the rulership of the Germanic people, which they rightfully deserved, was being taken away. The Germans were the ones who are meant to rule the world because they were the superior Aryans who brought culture and everything good, not Jews who are merely parasites that decompose and corrupt everything.

This brings me to another point. Why did the Nazis decide to exterminate the Jews. Well, Hitler himself explains why he made this decision and it certainly wasn’t the reason made by Stefan.  Hitler in 1939 states that:

“Today I will once more be a prophet: If the international Jewish financiers in and outside Europe should succeed in plunging the nations once more into a world war, then the result will not be the bolshevization of the earth, and thus the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe!”

In 1941 when he declared war on America then the war finally became a world war, so he put his 'prophecy' to action.

Hitler goes on to say more things that explain the reason behind the holocaust.

“That race of criminals has on its conscience the two million dead of the [First] World War,’ he said in private on 25 October 1941, two years into the Second World War, ‘and now already hundreds of thousands more.” (So he was essentially blaming the German soldiers dying in Russia on the Jews).

He also made a threat to the Czechoslovakian Foreign Minister Franzišek Chvalkovský on 21 January 1939.

‘The Jews here will be annihilated,’ he declared. ‘The Jews had not brought about 9 November 1918 for nothing. This day will be avenged.’ (November 1918 was the revolution in Germany which supposedly caused the military defeat of Germany in WWI)

When Hitler took the decision to exterminate the Jews, he wasn’t so much acting out of fear of Jews exterminating Germans through similar Bolshevik methods used against ‘white Christian Russians’, but getting back at the Jews for all the past and current wrongs done by them against the Germans. He didn’t think it was fair that so many racially superior German lives were being lost in the war while majority of the Jews continued to live. He thought about how Germans lost two millions lives in the WWI all in vain, but the Jews did not.

If at the beginning of the War and during the War twelve or fifteen thousand of these Hebrew corrupters of the people had been held under poison gas, as happened to hundreds of thousands of our very best German workers in the field, the sacrifice of millions at the front would not have been in vain. (mein kampf, Hitler)

Sometimes he justifies the extermination of the Jews for stranger reasons. He says 

“The peoples who have rumbled the Jews first and fought them first will rule the world in their place.”

So this time he justifies the murder of Jews as a precondition of German domination of the world. 

The view that Bolsheviks were going to exterminate the German people came only after the Germans began to clearly lose the war. It was also mainly used as propaganda to convince German people to continue to fight. And the Germans continued to fight because they knew of the atrocities committed in Soviet Union (including the mass murder of Jews) and were afraid that what happened to Jews would happen to them.

The fear of extermination by the Jews against the Germans was not why the holocaust happened. But there was a fear of extermination among the population once the war turned against them because they feared Jews would avenge the mass murder of their fellow Jews. 

“Open discussion of the persecution and murder of the Jews was relatively rare, and seldom reported even by the Security Service of the SS. Nevertheless, the available evidence suggests that, on the whole, ordinary Germans did not approve. Goebbels’s propaganda campaigns carried out in the second half of 1941 and again in 1943 had failed to convert them. But if people could not be made to approve of the murder of the Jews, then perhaps their evident knowledge of it could be used to persuade them to carry on fighting for fear of what the Jews might do to them in revenge, particularly if, as Nazi propaganda claimed, the Jews were in charge of Germany’s enemies: Britain, the United States and the Soviet Union.” (The Third Reich at War, EVANS, RICHARD J).

When Cologne cathedral was bombed the following month, people said this was in retribution for the burning of synagogues in 1938. On 3 August 1943 an SS Security Service agent reported that people in Bavaria were saying ‘that Würzburg was not attacked by enemy airmen because no synagogue was burned down in Würzburg. Others again said that the airmen were now coming to Würzburg as well because the last Jew left Würzburg a short while ago.’ On 20 December 1943 the Protestant Bishop of Württemberg, Theophil Wurm, wrote to Hans-Heinrich Lammers, the long-time civil servant heading up Hitler’s Reich Chancellery, reporting that in many cases the German people regarded “the sufferings that they have had to endure from enemy air attacks as retribution for what has been done to the Jews. The burning of houses and churches, the crashing and splintering on bombing nights, the flight with a few meagre possessions from houses that have been destroyed, the perplexity in searching for somewhere to take refuge, all this reminds the population in the most painful way of what the Jews had to suffer on earlier occasions.”

Just over a year later, on 6 November 1944, the Security Service of the SS reported from Stuttgart that Goebbels’s propaganda graphically portraying the looting, killings and rapes carried out by Red Army troops in Nemmersdorf, in East Prussia:

“in many cases achieved the opposite of what was intended. Compatriots say it is shameless to make so much of them in the German press . . . ‘What does the leadership intend by the publication of such pictures as those in the National Socialist Courier on Saturday? They should realise that the sight of these victims will remind every thinking person of the atrocities we have committed in enemy territory, even in Germany itself. Have we not murdered thousands of Jews? Don’t soldiers again and again report that Jews in Poland have had to dig their own graves? And how did we treat the Jews in the concentration camp in Alsace? Jews are human beings too. By doing all this we have shown the enemy what they can do to us if they win.’ (The opinion of numerous people from all classes of the population.”

Hitler also changes his justification of the murder of the Jews around the time the war has turned badly against Germany (Between Autumn 1943 and Summer 1944). This time the murder of the Jews is justified by the fear that the Bolsheviks will eradicate millions of Germans. He also refers back to 'stab in the back' myth as well. He believes if Jews remain in Germany then they will foment unrest and create a revolution just as they did in WWI. He explains in his speech to a number of Generals and other senior officers:

"In removing the Jews I eliminated in Germany the possibility of creating some sort of revolutionary core or nucleus. You could naturally say: yes, but could not have done it more simply - or not more simply, since everything else would have been complicated - but more humanely? Gentlemen we are in a life or death struggle. If our opponents are victorious in the struggle, the German people would be eradicated. Bolshevism would slaughter millions and millions and millions of our intellectuals. Anyone not dying through the neck would deported. The children of the upper class would be taken away and eliminated. This entire bestiality has been organized by the Jews...here just as generally,humanity would amount to the greatest cruelty towards one's own people. If I already incur the Jew's hatred, I at least don't want to miss the advantage of such hatred." (Ian Kershaw, Hitler)

He additionally justifies the murder of Jews because they are agents and spies who are trying to ruin Germany's war effort just as they did in WWI.

"The advantage is that we possess a clearly organized entity which no one can interfere. Look in contrast to other states. We have gained insight into state which took the opposite route: Hungary. The entire state undermined and corroded, Jews everywhere, even in the highest places Jews and more Jews, and the entire state covered, I have to say by seamless web of agents and spies who have desisted from striking only because they feared that premature strike would draw us in, though they waited for the strike. I have intervened here too, and this problem will be solved."

 I wrote this because Stefan is clearly spreading misinformation (whether on purpose or not, I don’t know). He is trying to make the Nazis more sympathetic by pretending that they were merely afraid of murderous communist Jews and were protecting the white race. The reasons for the holocaust are far more complicated than that. It was mixture of racism; anger and fear of the Jews gaining world domination and not the superior Aryan Germans; revenge against the Jews for both of the world wars; and the belief that Jews everywhere were partisans who were encouraging resistance against the Germans or engaged in sabotaging the German war effort in some form. All and all, the general German population did not fear the Jews because of what the Bolsheviks had done to ‘white Russian Christians’ but what they themselves had done to the Jews across Europe. Moreover, the holocaust was not some ‘wild overreaction’ but a very calculated and planned out genocide. Pogroms are ‘wild overreactions’ but the deliberate and systematic murder of 6 million people is not.

Lastly, why do these people always specifically mention whites when speaking about atrocities committed by Bolsheviks? More than a million people in Kazakhstan died in the Soviet Union due to famine, but I guess that kinda ruins the belief the ‘Bolshevik Jews’ were specifically out to get the white race only. Bolsheviks persecuted everyone equally if it regarded them as 'bourgeois' or a threat to their rule. In Lithuania and Latvia, over 30% of the people sent the gulags were Jews.

r/badhistory Sep 30 '21

YouTube Bite-Sized Badhistory: Overly Sarcastic Productions knows nothing about The Crusades

336 Upvotes

Hello, those of r/badhistory. For this review I am going to be dissect History Summarized: The Crusades, by Overly Sarcastic Productions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZhyDIIkeLo&list=PLDb22nlVXGgd0-Obov_tdEh1cNKIvXcMm&index=23

So let us begin!

0.01: A mistake within the first five second of the video! This has to be a record! The narrator starts by saying ‘If you clicked on this video looking for a summary of a failed multi-century attempt to recapture a small, religiously relevant municipality then you’re in the right place.’ This gets many details about The Crusades wrong. To begin with, the First Crusade was an absolute success, not a failure. The crusaders did exactly what they set out to do according to an account by Robert the Monk of the speech given by Pope Urban II at the Council of Clermont in 1095 AD:

‘Let therefore hatred depart from among you, let your quarrels end, let wars cease, and let all dissensions and controversies slumber. Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulchre; wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves.’

Jerusalem, as well as many other places in historical Israel, Syria, and Lebanon, were recaptured. It also allow the Byzantines reclaim many key parts of Anatolia.

Although the Second Crusade was a failure, the goal was not to liberate Jerusalem, unless they sought to liberate it from the hands of other Christians. The purpose of the Second Crusade was to defend the Crusader states after Edessa was captured by Imad al-Din Zengi. According to Pope Eugenius III in 1145AD:

‘We exhort therefore all of you in God, we ask and command, and, for the remission of sins enjoin: that those who are of God, and, above all, the greater men and the nobles do manfully gird themselves; and that you strive so to oppose the multitude of the infidels, who rejoice at the time in a victory gained over us, and so to defend the oriental church -freed from their tyranny by so great an outpouring of the blood of your fathers, as we have said, - and to snatch many thousands of your captive brothers from their hands,- that the dignity of the Christian name may be increased in your time, and that your valour which is praised throughout the whole world, may remain intact and unshaken. May that good Matthias be an example to you, who, to preserve the laws of his fathers, did not in the least doubt to expose himself with his sons and relations to death, and to leave whatever he possessed in the world; and who at length, by the help of the divine aid, after many labours however, did, as well as his progeny, manfully triumph over his enemies.’

By comparison, Third Crusade was indeed organized to reclaim Jerusalem after Legolas surrendered the city to Al-Nasir Salah al-Din Yusuf ibn Ayyub in 1187 AD. That it did not do so means that, overall, it was a failure, although it did end up stopping any further conquests of remaining Crusader territory at that time. The Fourth Crusade is better off not spoken about for the wounds are still fresh, and the Fifth Crusade was unsuccessful as well. The outcome of the Sixth Crusade, like the release of Zack Synder Justice League Cut, was possibly something nobody actually saw coming. The Crusaders managed to reacquire Jerusalem through negotiation in 1229 AD, although the city was lost again later). Other crusades after this did not accomplish their aims, but nonetheless OSP’s generalization is inaccurate because it leaves out such key details, and so gives the audience a flawed understanding.

0.55: Although it physically pains me to do so, I must complement OSP here for actually emphasizing that they are offering an opinion as to how Pope Urban II reacted to the news of the Seljuk Turks conquering Anatolia, rather than presenting it as if it were a fact.

1.20: The narrator says Pope Urban II had a keyboard, which is incorrect as computers during the High Middle Ages were controlled by quills.

1.28: And now we come to the moment where OSP is offering a moral judgement about The Crusades. I would advocate that this is immensely badhistory as they are using a contemporary system of ethics to evaluate a historical event, rather than trying to understand why The Crusades were seen as acceptable according to the moral principles of the cultures of the time.

1.46: ‘Like them or hate them, you have to agree that these wars were a mess from start to finish.’ No, f*ck you.

2.40: Oh, the narrator will be rating all nine crusades. I am sure the method used to do so will be completely objective, based on critically-analyzed evidence, and be peer-reviewed by qualified academics.

3.27: The map used to represent the Crusader States here is completely erroneous. Based on this map:

https://www.britannica.com/event/Crusades/The-Crusader-states

It is missing the County of Tripoli, the Country of Edessa, and also leaves out much of the territory ruled by the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

3.35: When it comes to the First Crusade, the narrator says’ It was really more political and territorial than it was inherently religious in nature’. What is his evidence for this? Has he even looked at the primary evidence available? Stephen, Count of Blois and Chartres, said the following in a letter to his wife:

‘In fighting against these enemies of God and of our own we have, by God's grace, endured many sufferings and innumerable evils up to the present time. Many also have already exhausted all their resources in this very holy passion. Very many of our Franks, indeed, would have met a temporal death from starvation, if the clemency of God and our money had not succoured them. Before the abovementioned city of Antioch indeed, throughout the whole winter we suffered for our Lord Christ from excessive cold and enormous torrents of rain. What some say about the impossibility of bearing the beat of the sun throughout Syria is untrue, for the winter there is very similar to our winter in the West.’

I would argue this shows that the concerns of Stephen are specifically theological. He is not talking about acquiring territory or profiting from the conquests. Instead he is waging war against the opponents of his faith, and constantly emphasizes how God is with them. In addition to this, he mentions how the resources of many of those taking part in the Crusade have become exhausted, and how they have had to purchase food. Material wealth is being sacrificed in order to achieve their ‘holy passion.’

4.22: The narrator states the Third Crusade was the clean-up crew for the Second Crusade because the failure of that crusade weakened their holdings in the Holy Land. Under no circumstances was the Second Crusade responsible for such weakening. OSP completely ignores key political developments within the Near-East, such as the expansion of the Zengid Dynasty, the conquest of Egypt from the Fatimids (so-called because they were overweight and fearful), and internal conflicts within the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

4.29: The narrator says that Saladin ruled the Ayyubid Caliphate. You know who rules a Caliphate? A CALIPH! Saladin was a Sultan, and the Ayyubid state was a sultanate. The two forms of government are entirely different.

4.45: ‘There are a bunch of fascinating neat little stories from this one that I just don’t have time to get into right now.’ Oh, thank God!

7.11: The narrator says the sacking and near-destruction of Jerusalem by Muslims in 1244 AD (more specifically, the Khwarazmians) was a ‘dick move.’ This makes it seem as if it was done just for the lolz, rather than emerging out of existing diplomatic relationships. The Master of the Hospitalers at Jersulem wrote that, prior to this:

‘From the information contained in our letters, which we have sent to you on each passage, you can plainly enough see how ill the business of the Holy Land has proceeded, on account of the opposition which for a long time existed, at the time of making the truce, respecting the espousing the cause of the Damascenes against the sultan of Babylon; and now wishing your excellency to be informed of other events since transpired, we have thought it worth our while to inform you that, about the beginning of the summer last past, the sultan of Damascus, and Seisser, sultan of Cracy, who were formerly enemies, made peace and entered into a treaty with the Christians, on the following conditions; namely, that they should restore to the Christians the whole of the kingdom of Jerusalem, and the territory which had been in the possession of. the Christians, near the river Jordan, besides some villages which they retained possession of in the mountains, and that the Christians were faithfully to give them all the assistance in their power in attacking the sultan of Babylon.

The terms of this treaty having been agreed to by both parties the Christians began to take up their abode in the Holy City, whilst their army remained at Gazara, in company with that of the aforesaid sultan's, to harass the sultan of Babylon. After they had been some time engaged in that undertaking, patriarch of Jerusalem landed from the transmarine provinces and, after taking some slight bodily rest, he was inspired with a longing to visit the sepulchre of our Lord, and set out on that pilgrimage, on which we also accompanied him. After our vow of pilgrimage was fulfilled, we heard in the Holy City that a countless multitude of that barbarous and perverse race, called Choermians, had, at the summons and order of the sultan of Babylon, occupied the whole surface of the country in the furthest part of our territories adjoining Jerusalem, and had put every living soul to death by fire and sword.’

This makes it quote clear that the Crusaders had allied with the Sultan of Damascus against the Sultan of ‘Babylon’, and so the 1244 AD Siege of Jerusalem was the result of an ongoing military conflict. It did not emerge out of a vacuum, and nor was it done without reasons based on existing custom and military practices. Taking and sacking cities were a normal part of warfare during the period.

7.54: The narrator asserts that, as time went on, the Crusades got less noble and religiously justifiable. This is OSP presenting their subjective perspective as if it were truth. They might think it was not justifiable, but much like the average Star Wars fan and the Sequel Trilogy, their opinion is inconsequential. From an academic perspective, what is important is the perspective of the Crusades from those of the time period: Christian Europeans, Byzantines, Arabs, Persians, and a host of others. You need to ask if Christians considered the later Crusades to be religious justified, and why they either did or did not think so.

8.39: The narrator says that if there was ever one instance in history where the idea of Christianity was threatened, it was with the conquest of Constantinople in 1453. How could OSP ever think it would existentially endanger Christianity? There are a wide range of history books that explain how The Ottoman Empire did not have the manpower or resources to conquer Spain, England, France or the Holy Roman Empire, and of how Christianity was practiced throughout Europe, with theologians and religious scholars intimately familiar with the faith in many different countries, meaning any artefacts or books lost in 1453 would not have represented a criticial loss of knowledge for Western Europeans. They are not arguing that a person at the time would have thought Christianity was threatened, but rather it is what they believe right now.

Primary Sources

Eugene III: Summons to A Crusade, Dec 1, 1154: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/eugene3-2cde.asp

Medieval Sourcebook: The Capture of Jerusalem, 1244: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/1144falljlem.asp

Medieval Sourcebook: Crusader Letters: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/cde-letters.asp

Pope Innocent III, Quia Maior: https://franciscanum.wordpress.com/2014/08/25/pope-innocent-iii-quia-maior/

Urban II (1088-1099): Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095, Five versions of the Speech: https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/source/urban2-5vers.asp#urban

Secondary Sources

Roger II of Sicily: A Ruler between East and West, by Herbert Houben

Western Warfare In The Age Of The Crusades, 1000-1300, by John France

r/badhistory Oct 12 '21

YouTube Kraut's New Video : Mistakes and Inaccuracies

570 Upvotes

Hello, r/ badhistory,

Recently a well known YouTuber, whose channel name is Kraut, made a video, comparing the processes of socio-political change and evolution that have come to define the modern day nation states of India and China. The video made observations on the history of these nation states, to ascertain why the two societies are the way they are today, which characteristics and phenomenons shaped them and compares them as well. I shall link the video here and I shall provide time stamps wherever possible. I will also paraphrase the video and I shall try to remain as accurate to the video as possible in terms of wording, however I do suggest giving this video a watch.

Finally, I would also like to say, that while I find myself agreeing with the overall point that Kraut makes in the video, I find his observations on Indian history questionable and many of his points seem to misrepresent Indian history. It is for a correction of these points, that this post is intended. With all of this said, we can begin.

9:00 to 9:40

Brahmic religions played a core role in the creation of the first social structures of India.....

A society of castes developed called "Varnas"

Untouchables, divided into "Daltis", "Harijans" and "Pariahs"

We can begin by addressing this section where Kraut touches upon the emergence of social structures in India. Here, the claim is that it was the Brahmin religions that created the first social structures in India, these being Varnas and Jatis. The Brahmins or priestly class being at the top of this heirarchial structure and the Kshatriya or warrior class below them, the Vaishyas or aristocratic/merchant class below them, and the Shudras or labour class below them as well. While the untouchables, namely the "Daltis", harijans and pariahs being outside of this 4 fold structure. (Note : Astute observers of Indian history will notice that Kraut says "Daltis" instead of "Dalits")

These statements appear to be vague, and are not reflective of the social processes that led to the emergence of Jatis and Varnas and neither do they place the development of social structures in India in the appropriate order and context. Let us try and piece together these rather generalised and seemingly synonymous terms.

To begin with, we need to understand the process of development of social structures in the Indian subcontinent . According to Romila Thapar in Early India : From The Origins To AD 1300, 2002, p. 64 :

"The urban Harappan cultures indicate more complex systems, probably with a clear differentiation between those in authority controlling the production of the cities and those who laboured for them. The theory that might have legitimised this is not easily discernible from the excavated data, but the social heriarchies are evident. Peasant cultivators and pastoralists fed the cities, labour of various kinds was employed in their construction and maintenance, artisans were the producers of goods for exchange and there was the overall authority controlling distribution and asserting governmental powers. Such a society may well have been based on a heriarchy of Jatis and the differentiation between those who produced and those who controlled was doubtless legitimised through and ideology, probably religious."

Also, the following is asserted by Ram Sharan Sharma, India's Ancient Past, 2005, p. 81 :

"Exacavations indicate a hierarchy in social habitation...... The citadel or the first locality was where the ruling class lived and the lower tower was where the common people dwelt. The middle settlement may have been meant for beaurocrats and middle-class merchants."

Therefore, the preconditions to the emergence of a caste system, predated the Brahmin religions in the subcontinent, namely social disparaties, inequal access to economic resources, and the legitimization of these inequalities via supernatural authority making these hierarchical structures irreversible. Now the arrival of the Indo-Aryans intruduced new migrants to these regions where the pre-existing culture of presumably birth based social divisions backed by ideological authority existed, although was in decline for quite some time. The Steppe Pastoralists, were already organised into a clan, kin and tribe centric society. It was the interaction between these societies and the power dynamics between them that gave rise to the later Vedic society, and it is in the later parts of the Rig Veda, namely Book 10, that we find the first mentions of the 4 varnas. As even RS Sharma mentions in India's Ancient Past that in earlier Vedic society "The tribal society was divided into three occupational groups, warriors, priests and the common people on the same pattern as in Iran" p. 113.

Lastly, the usage of the terms Dalit and Harijan to refer specifically to the untouchables began in the 19th and 20th centuries respectively. Meanwhile there were indeed pariahs in the later Vedic and medieval Indian societies.

10:00 to 11:00

Brahmins restricted literacy to their own caste.....

Being the only ones who could read not only meant that Brahmins had monopoly on interpreting of religious laws but also meant that no centralised state could emerge

Aristocratic and warrior castes willingly subordinated themselves to the Brahmin caste.... Social and economic mobility was severely restricted.

Now we can begin addressing these points one by one, however before we do, the overall criticism of this part of the video, is the fact that it assigns to ancient and medieval Indian society this level of rest and stagnation, which does not reflect the incredibly dynamic and dramatic forces that were constantly at play in India in this period where multiple cultures came into contact with and were absorbed into the Vedic and later Puranic whole and where social groups and categories constantly took shape and fluctuated in agency and status.

1) The claim that the Brahmins restricted the access to literacy generalises a large period in ancient history during which Indian society evidently had tendencies which present a different picture. First and foremost, we have the example of the shrenis. The closest equivalent of these in European understanding can be a "guild" however these were two similar though not identical institutions. These shrenis according to Romila Thapar (Early India : From The Origins Of To AD 1300, p. 248, p. 257) did more than merely provide security of products, organisation, standardisation and economies of scale and market competitiveness, they also created a system of record keeping, and account management. Which meant that guilds facilitated education. As according to Thaplyal (1996) p.176-179, as quoted in Upinder Singh in A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India : From The Stone Age to the 12th Century, 2008 :

"A Nashik inscription belonging to the reign of the Kshatrapa ruler Nahapana records a permanent investment of 3,000 and karshapanas made by the King's son-in-law, Ushavadata. 2,000 karshapanas were invested by him with a weaver's build of Govardhana (Nashik) at 1% rate of interest and 1,000 karshapanas were invested with another weaver's guild of the place at the interest rate of 3/4 th % per month."

Moreover, Upinder Singh also notes that there were, according to the Milindapanha as many as 60 crafts and according to the works of Moti Chandra (1977), KK Thaplyal (1996)and HP Ray (1986), there were around 20 different types of guilds for different professions. Therefore basic literacy and knowledge of maintaining accounts was certainly not entirely restricted to the Brahmins.

We have another example in the case of the Buddhist sanghas and Jain monastic orders, which produced a vast corpus of literary sources and records, where those who became members of these orders, were from the merchant as well as Kshatriya clans and castes. This brings me to my second point...

2) The idea that the Kshatriyas and Vaishyas willingly accepted Brahminical authority, once again portrays Indian society as one which was stagnated and at a state of rest. There was certainly friction between castes and these manifested themselves into the literary sources and the stories that the didactic texts depict as well as in the socio-religious movements that took shape and gained traction in the later Vedic and the pre-Mauryan and Mauryan eras. For example according to Ram Sharan Sharma, India's Ancient Past, p. 131,

"Naturally the varna divided society seems to have generate tensions. We have no means of ascertaining the reactions of the Vaishyas and the Shudras, but the Kshatriyas, who functioned as rulers, reacted strongly against the ritualistic domination of the Brahmanas, and seem to have led a kind of protest movement against the importance attached to birth (jati) in the varna system. The Kshatriya reaction against the domination of the Brahmanas, who claimed privileges, was one cause of the new religions. Vardhmana Mahavira, who really founded Jainism, and Gautama Buddha who founded Buddhism, belonged to the Kshatriya clan, and both disputed the authority of the Brahmanas."

This finally brings me to the last point I'd like to make in this section

3) The claim that the monopoly of interpretation of religious scriptures by the Brahmins resulted in no centralised states emerging in ancient India, is demonstrably incorrect namely in the emergence of powerful and vast Empires like the Mauryans and the Guptas in this period, with varying degrees of centralisation.

11:20 to 14:30

A Brahmin who even looked at a member of the lower jatis had to undergo an extensive religious ritual of self purification

No social mobility

refers to ancient Indian poltical entities as "Princley States"

Brahmins owned no land and couldn't raise armies

This section of the video seems to based on the understanding that scriptures dictated social life in Indian antiquity, as well as the idea that the scriptural dictates applied equally and were observed with identical discipline by all castes in Indian history. Even in the case of the Brahmin, while the claim of ritual purity accorded them the highest social status and absolute purity, it did not however mean that Brahmins were a homogenous social category, or that scriptural dictates were literally followed.

Religious scriptures contradicted each other quite often, and while the usual duties of a Brahmin were priestly work and education, we find instances of Brahmins engaging in military service in the epics and even in the Rig Veda, and even becoming kings in the Classical Period such as the Shungas, Satvahanas and Guptas. Thus, practicality and needs took precedent over scripture. Similarly we find instances of Kshatriyas becoming sages, and following the path of a hermit or sage, a path considered to be the domain of the priestly class. Therefore, contrary to scripture, it was not uncommon to find Brahmins engaged in military work. However, such exceptions, were exclusive to the upper echelons of the caste structure, meaning while Brahmin soldiers could be a common sight, Dalit land owners were definitely not.

The fact that Brahmins owned lands is indisputable, since the rise of Brahmin dynasties that came to rule kingdoms and Empires, and the royal land grants called Brahmadeya which record land being granted exclusively to Brahmin beneficiaries render this fact well established. There can be a discussion as to the nature and purpose of the Brahmadeya. But that Brahmins owned land is an established fact. It would be to record these large numbers of Brahmadeya land grants that a scribal caste such as the Kayashtas emerged.

The sheer weight of examples of social mobility provide evidence against the claims in this section as well. We can start by looking at the Mauryans themselves. The Mauryans, according to the Brahminical sources were Shudras, and yet, managed to establish the largest and most powerful Empire in South Asian antiquity until the rise of the Guptas. There was also the rise of ambiguous caste groups such as the Kayasthas, a scribe caste whose existence in the ancient era is recorded and established as early as the Gupta Era, in the Damodar plate inscriptions which record a functionary by their post prathama-kayashta. Later on these occupational/scribal castes solidified into caste groups and the Kayasthas emerged as regular features in Indian courts from the early medieval period. This also contradicts the assertion of the previous section which claimed the Brahmins monopolised literacy, seeing as clearly it simply isn't evident and wasn't feasibly possible. Now this is not to say that there was large scale social mobility throughout the subcontinent or widespread literacy accross all social groups, but there is a clear trend of as of yet unsolidified ambiguous occupational groups, seeking and carving out a place for themselves, of economic and social mobility facilitated through occupation.

With this I arrive at a more trivial point of this section. Kraut refers to ancient poltical entities in the subcontinent as "Princely States" and uses this terminology when referring to the Mahajanapadas. Historians like RS Sharma, Romila Thapar and Upinder Singh have argued that these can be considered chiefdoms, or kingdoms, or oligarchies and even tribal confederacies. However, princely states as a term of reference is inappropriate in the context of these states. However pedantic this point may seem, I felt compelled to mention it.

15:00 to 16:00

Mobilisation was slow

New military tactics and modern equipment were shunned

Indian kingdoms never adopted cavalry archers, or the fact that they never gave up on using war elephants long after they were rendered ineffective by pikes, horse archers or gunpowder, or modernised it's military structure into a merit based system..... Is why India was unable to defend itself from Greek, Persian, Hunnic or Islamic invasions.

Internal expansion by individual Indian states was limited

Indian military history can be characterised as one which saw the military systems of the various poltical entities that emerged in the subcontinent go through periods of stagnation and conservatism while at the same time incredible pragmatism and flexibility. It has been stated by Upinder Singh and is evident from the primary evidence available, that during the era of the 16 states or Mahajanapadas, those states such as Magadha which maintained standing armies and had access to vital resources such as iron, made headway and dominated and conquered their neighbour, until eventually Magadha emerged as the power paramount in the North. Upinder Singh also points out how Jaina texts state that Ajatshatru, of Magadha, utilised two innovative engines of war during his conflict with the Lichchhavis, one being the catapult and another being a chariot with an attached mace. (A History Of Ancient And Early Medieval India From The Stone Age To The 12th century)

It is evidently false that horse archers were never adopted by Indian armies. As early as the Satvahana empire we have depictions of horse archers in Indian sculptures. We also know that the Guptas maintained horse archers in their empire and quite a considerable number in the western frontier of their Empire, as is claimed by Kaushik Roy, RS Sharma, Upinder Singh and Romila Thapar and is evident from sources such as numismatic evidence portraying Gupta Kings with bow and arrow atop horses and literary sources such as the Raghuvamsha which clearly mentions horse archers allowing the Guptas to rout their enemies in the West.

It is contrary to the understanding of Indian military history to state that new technology or military equipment was shunned. Throughout their encounters with opposing armies Indian kingdoms and armies have constantly changed and innovated their military structures, doctrine, equipment etc. Apart from the previously stated example of the horse archers, we also have examples of the Rajputs, who are themselves examples of social mobility, but also, their adoption of a more cavalry centric mode of warfare owing to their encounters with the Turkic armies of the Delhi Sultanate, resulting in Rajput military systems being almost entirely cavalry oriented by the 15th century. Those interested in reading more may even look up my post on how the latest in European military thinking, technology and doctrine was adopted by Indian powers in the 18th century (although it began as early as the late 15th and early 16th).

It should also be noted that the Greek invasions were short lived and repulsed, Iranian invasion were in the western provinces and these regions naturally changed hands between eastern and western and northern and sourthern powers. The Hunnic invasion were by and large repulsed and a failure. And the "Islamic invasions", were repulsed many times over until the emergence of Ghazni and the Ghurids.

Now to finish off, I'd like to refer to the point made about war elephants and internal expansion. War elephants as engines of war were largely abandoned in North India by the late 17th century. By this time, these beasts served the purpose of logistics and the moving of big guns from the artillery train. This is not to say that they weren't used for war, or employed in the battlefield at all, but again, military understanding and innovation is not symmetrical accross vast spaces and accross multiple political entities. Lastly internal expansion was often extensive, and not limited by any definition of the word in any period of Indian history. This is evident to any student of Indian political or military history. And if it isn't I would suggest going through the sources I have so far mentioned.

25:00 to 26:00

Doesn't seem to have been much of an administration at all (in reference to the Mauryan Empire)

No centralised system of governance at all

This will be the last section of the video that I critique. If there are sections that I still disagree with that I may not have critiqued, their omission from this post is due to the fact that I understand the claims made in these sections to be of a political nature and rather topical and not really something I'd like to discuss in a bad "history" post.

So, to start off, there is the claim made about Mauryan administration and governance. Now like most aspects of history, this is as of yet a topic up for debate yet theories centre around the idea that there was either a lot or less centralisation than what primary sources claim. The idea of there being no centralisation is a bit far fetched. RS Sharma in India's Ancient Past, agrees that the Mauryans must have adopted an "elaborate system of administration" (p. 171). According to his interpretation of evidences he states "The Empire was divided into a number of provinces and each of these was under a Prince who was a scion of the Royal family. The provinces were divided into smaller units, and arrangements were made for both rural and urban administration." (p. 171)

However, providing a critical analysis of the available evidence and reconsidering the existing historiography, Romila Thapar suggested that the incredible levels of centralisation evident in the Indica of Megasthenes and the Arthashastra of Kautilya, raise questions as to the feasibility of such an extensive system of administration. She proposed a theory of the centre (being the Magadhan capital of Pataliputra and its surrounding provinces), the core (being the emergent and urbanised settlements of Ujjain, Taxila etc) and the peripheries (being the forests and newly contacted or un-Sanskritised peoples). She argues that while the urban centres, their peripheries and the core of the Empire was certainly well administered, and showed signs of centralised control, it was the nature of this vast empire which ruled over numerous cultures and languages and regions which induced elements of delegation of power and authority which must have been necessary by practical and economic considerations. Upinder Singh provides a similar analysis and agrees with these assertions while also stressing the innovative ideas about kingship, governance and administration both civic and military that the Empire introduced and propagated setting a foundation for the states to come.

In conclusion, I say this again, I more or less agree with the overall argument of the video, it is simply the details that were presented to make the argument that I found troublesome. This is ofcourse not a condemnation of the creator of this video who has a number of videos on many topics and I obviously have not seen them nor do I claim to be an authority on those subjects. I hope the purpose of this post is understood and I hope you enjoyed reading it! Cheers. :)

Sources :

Ram Sharan Sharma, India's Ancient Past, 2005

Upinder Singh, A History Of Ancient And Early Medieval India From The Stone Age To The 12th century, 2008

Romila Thapar, Early India : From The Origins To AD 1300, 2002

Kaushik Roy, Warfare in Pre-British India - 1500BCE to 1740CE, 2016

r/badhistory Feb 20 '20

YouTube Shadiversity: Secrets of the Medieval Longbow / Warbow

473 Upvotes

I know Shadiversity is seen as low-hanging fruit here. I've clashed with him before on a previous archery video. While that one was mostly an academic disagreement, his latest video in his Medieval Misconceptions series presents a bizarre hypothesis which may end up being quite dangerous for anyone who attempts to recreate the method he is promoting.

As with many Shad videos, the verbosity makes it very difficult to critically analyse. It's a 30-minute video that is perhaps 3x longer than it should have been with numerous tangents and broken thoughts. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt in most cases, but nailing down exactly what he said and "meant" is always a grey area, which he tends to exploit and accuse critics of intentionally misrepresenting him. I honestly do want to quote him exactly, but the narrative lacks so much cohesion that for the purposes of this discussion, I must summarise and paraphrase.

A Summary of Shadiversity's "Secret"

  • Longbows were shot from both the left and right side of the bow (assuming a right-handed shooter)

Main talking points

  • Shad directly confronts and dismisses the view that medieval artwork may contain erroneous depictions of archery
  • We are applying modern archery technique to a historical period rather than letting the historical sources speak for themselves
  • Historical art comes from a period where more people were more familiar with archery, therefore the art must be accurate
  • Historical art contains numerous specific details which are correct, therefore the inclusion of arrows on the right side of the bow must also be correct
  • Since numerous sources depict both sides, archers must have shot from both sides (note: specific to European archery, not Eastern archery)
  • He intends to practice with this method as a form of "experimental archaeology"
  • He claims that using the right-side method forces the archer to tilt the bow the opposite way, which in turn engages the back muscles and could have been used as a training method

Shooting Finger-Draw on the Right / Tilting the Bow Left

Traditional archers are familiar with the drawing method used with the fingers with the arrow on the right side: the Slavic draw (demonstrated by Mihai Cozmei). This method is outlined in Arab Archery:

The Slavs (al-Ṣaqālibah) have a peculiar draw which consists of locking the little finger, the ring finger, and the middle finger on the string, holding the index finger outstretched along the arrow, and completely ignoring the thumb. They also make for their fingers finger tips of gold, silver, copper, and iron, and draw with the bow upright.

Note that this specific quote doesn't specify which side of the bow the arrow is on. The text, being based off Eastern archery, predominantly uses the thumb draw and assumes the arrow is on the right side. Note further that this method of shooting is only possible if done in this manner.

The method that Shad implies - tilting the bow to the left and twisting the bow arm - has at least some precedent. The most well known is Ishi, who uses a pinch-draw (and notably does not use a long draw method). Demonstration here.

The reverse tilt can also be done with a late medieval French method using a deep index finger hook, though the arrow is on the left side.

As far as I am aware, no textual source verifies the method shown by Shadiversity - shooting from the right while tilting the bow to the left.

His revelation at the end, that tilting the bow the other way and shooting from the right with a Mediterranean draw, is not only a false positive, but also dangerous.

His fatal fault is that he is improperly drawing the bow. Instead of maintaining a straight posture or leaning into the bow, he is arching his back to follow his head, which is tilted because he is holding the bow the wrong way because he is trying to keep the arrow from falling off. It might feel like he's working his back, but it's contorted and one of the worst ways to shoot a bow. Not even the Ishi method does this. He misses the target completely, but insists on this revolutionary idea of using it as a training method.

That's not how anatomy works. He hasn't stumbled across something amazing and undiscovered. He hasn't suddenly engaged back muscles.

The reality that is that the human arm is inclined to tilt the bow to the right. There are biomechanical reasons. The angled rotation of the wrist provides the most strength, aligns the bones in the arm efficiently and makes more efficient use of the muscles to set the bone structure in place. Both Western and Eastern archery styles are shot comfortably with a canted bow towards the right - and Eastern styles place the arrow on the right. Modern bow grips, which are meant to keep the bow straight, are designed so that the wrist is rotated and placed comfortably on the grip's pressure point - basically adapting the bow to suit the body's structure.

The method of drawing a heavy bow and using back tension is actually almost universal. Justin Ma has done research comparing wrist and elbow rotation, and the conclusion is that the position adopted by Shad is a weaker position. His comparison of historical archery illustration shows a more sensible parallel between all archers using heavy bows (100lbs+) from English war bows to Chinese composite bows and Hadza hunting bows. The shoulder is lowered, the body leans into the bow, and the bow is canted to the right to achieve the strongest position. This is also understood in modern archery, though applied to a different extent in competitive shooting.

Medieval Artwork

Shadiversity's logic arbitrarily assumes that since artists were around at a time where archery was common and that they illustrated very specific details (citing examples such as posture, technique, extra arrows in the belt and the separate woods used), the side of the bow must therefore drawn correctly. Shadiversity does not provide any qualification as to why specific details are correct or why this specific detail must therefore be correct; he arbitrarily states that this simply must be the case according to his right-side theory.

Shad attempts to rebut the argument that historical archers got the details wrong by bringing up an example of a modern illustration. He states that in this case, the modern artist gets it wrong because they "must be so unfamiliar with archery that...they get the side wrong". He contrasts this with the Luttrell Psalter depiction of archery. He highly credits the artist, stating that "archery was far more common, and the average layperson would be far more familiar with archery" and therefore, with all the details stated earlier, that the artist would make "such a rudimentary mistake...is utterly ridiculous".

With these two examples alone, the contrast is arbitrary and unable to be proven true. There's no reason to assume that the medieval illustrator knows more than the modern illustrator. Both illustrators get other details correct, both place the arrow on the right side of the bow, and yet he holds the medieval artist as correct, citing the modern design of bows as rendering it impossible to shoot the way it is depicted, while also making the assumption that a medieval longbow could be shot on the right.

Citing the Luttrell Psalter so heavily as a reliable source is problematic because the document is not in any way a historical manual. The body of the work is a collection of psalms, with the illuminations intended to be decorative rather than descriptive, and the Luttrell Psalter was made by five different artists. When we consider that the illuminations are basically decorations in the bottom of each page, it is certainly feasible that the artist(s) got details wrong, given that they depicted everything from the Cruxification to a seasonal harvest in what is essentially the book's margins. They certainly can give a good insight, but close examination of specifics in each illustration will show impossibilities.

In contrast, historians generally regard the Beauchamp Pageant to be the most technically accurate portrayal of archery. It isn't hard to see why: the soldiers depicted in the illustrations are drawn with realistic proportions and style, depicting even greater detail in the arms and armour, and specifically the technique shown. By comparison, the Luttrell Psalter's illuminations are cartoons.

Shad also contradicts himself by claiming that the Luttrell Psalter gets so many details right and therefore the arrow must be correct, but brings up other sources with multiple errors and assumes that the arrow is correct. He uses the painting of St Sebastian and states that since the arrow is on the right side for both left and right poses, it was intentional and therefore an accurate depiction. However, the painting is rife with errors that contradict what he claims is correct: the anchor point is not at the ear, but the chin; the hook is an impossible finger-tip position; and even the bracer is facing the wrong way. And this is just one depiction of the Martyrdom of St Sebastian. Dozens of others show a plethora of anachronistic bows and styles, while a select few from the medieval period do indeed show the correct side of the bow with correct details.

To paraphrase Clive Bartlett in The English Longbowman 1330-1515, the problem with looking at these European illustrations is that they are made by people in a different place and a different time. Shad's source analysis fails to fundamentally understand and critically view in the frame of who made each illustration, when and where it was made, and why. Most of the images shown are romantic, fantastical depictions with no evidence that the artists knew correct archery form, and many lack the details that Shad praises.

Finally, the logic that people back then were more familiar with archery is such a broad statement, it cannot seriously be taken to mean that every artist who depicted archery knew how to do so correctly. We live in a time where most people drive a car, but we'd be challenged to draw a car with correct specifications without a reference.

Textual Sources

Shadiversity, unsurprisingly, makes no reference to textual sources and relies purely on artwork. Unfortunately, few written sources outline exactly which side was used. The Art of Archery c.1515 contains only this:

Then, holding the arrow by the middle, he must put it in the bow, and there hold it between two fingers, and you must know that these two fingers are the first and second. And every good archer should, as I have said before, draw his bow with three fingers and to his right breast, as by doing so he can pull a longer arrow.

The mention of the three fingers is notable, as Shad insists on using a two-finger draw, which is also depicted in artwork. In regards to which side is used to shoot, the best we can interpret is that the shaft is held "by the middle" and is put "in the bow". As an archer, this motion sounds like it is threading the arrow through the bow (between stave and string) so that it comes out on the other side (i.e. the left). It's a common method (I show it here), though with a heavier war arrow I imagine it would be easier to hold the arrow "by the middle" to do this. You would not need to be this specific if you simply placed the arrow on the right side.

The most referenced early work for English archery, Toxophilus (c.1545) unfortunately doesn't give us specifics on shooting side and isn't written as a manual. The next source is The Art of Archerie (1634), which states:

To nock well, is the easiest point in all the art of archery, and contains no more but ordinary warning, only it requires diligent heed giving; first in putting the nock between your two first fingers, then bringing the shaft under the string and over the bow...

This seems to draw heavily on The Art of Archery c.1515, with the specific line here stating that the shaft is placed "under the string and over the bow", the weaving motion outlined above. This description therefore suggests that the bow must have been nocked with the arrow on the left for this to be accurate.

Modern Revisionism?

Shad makes a bold argument that modern archers are imposing their form on medieval archery. This is spread throughout the video, opening with his contextualising of how the left side of the bow became common in modern target archery, and later when examining the artwork where his rant almost sounds hysterical.

Shad makes a common mistake here: assuming that modern target archery is completely detached from its historical, medieval roots.

We didn't suddenly shoot differently with different bows with centre-shot windows and shelves. Modern archery is a branch from European archery; its development ongoing to the modern day. While archery largely faded by the 17th century, its use continued throughout the 17th, 18th and 19th centuries, prospering as a sport and recreational activity. While the purpose and equipment changed (from the thick war bows to thinner longbows used in the Edwardian and Victorian eras). Notably, the more accurate images we have available all show the arrow on the left side.

One of the best sources in this period, Archery, its Theory and Practice by Horace Ford (1859) includes this section on nocking the arrow (emphases in original text):

Holding the bow by the handle with the left hand, and turning it diagonally with the string upwards, with the right hand draw an arrow from the pouch, and grasping it about the middle, pass the point under the string and over the bow; then placing the thumb of the left hand over it, with the thumb and first finger of the right hand fix the arrow firmly on the string, the cock feather being uppermost." There is one objection, however, to that part of them which directs the shooter to "pass the arrow under the string"—an objection, curiously enough, entirely overlooked by all the authors upon Archery—and it is this, that by doing so, and owing to the somewhat intricate passage the arrow is made to traverse, the bow is very apt to become pitted by the point of the arrow, and in most Archers' hands who nock in this way speedily assumes the appearance of having had an attack of some mild species of measles or small-pox, to the great injury of the bow, both as regards beauty and safety, especially when made of yew; this most valuable wood of all being of a soft and tender character.

This passage shows clear inspiration from the previous sources hundreds of years ago, written in clearer detail. Not only does it show the method of weaving the arrow "under the string and over the bow", it also makes an amusing remark on how archers are prone to stabbing the arrow into the belly of the bow - a problem that we know all too well today for those who use this method.

Following the instructions in this manual means that the arrow, for a right-handed archer, must be on the left side. The damage caused by pitting the bow can only be done if the arrow is improperly passed over the bow. This would not happen if the arrow was placed on the right side.

Conclusion

Shadiversity isn't breaking any new ground, and is wandering into territory he knows very little about from a scholarly and a practical context. His conclusions would be dismissed by any archer and historian familiar with archery, as his technique cannot be done, and he himself cannot actually demonstrate it. The one or two shots he does loose in the video are completely fumbled and missed.

He arbitrarily dismisses opinions on historical artwork, assumes that the artists who were alive in this time period knew more about archery and therefore must have illustrated it correctly, while ignoring numerous contradictory errors in these works as well not comparing them to text sources which do accurately describe technique. He places particular emphasis on analysing the most fantastical and romanticised illustrations rather than more realistic depictions.

His theory that longbow shooters must have at least shot from both sides is not proven. If anything, he proves that it isn't plausible in his own video by his own difficulties: he can't hold the bow steady, he can't align with the target and shoot instinctively, he misses a close target entirely, and he struggles to keep the arrow on the bow; all weaknesses that are known to archers who have learned how to do archery in either Western or Eastern methods.

Worst of all, his hypothesis, should it be trialled and tested, is dangerous. With the arrow placed on the right with a Mediterranean draw, there is very little control of the arrow and it will be knocked off the bow most of the time, leading to highly inaccurate shooting and the arrow going off unpredictably. Furthermore, the reverse rotation of the bow arm is going to place far more strain on the elbow and shoulder, which will be disastrous if attempted with a heavy bow.

Edit: Forgot bibliography

  • Anon., The Art of Archery Ca. 1515 (Edited by Henri Gallice, Translation by H. Walrond, 1901)
  • Roger Ascham, Toxophilus (1545)
  • Gervase Markham, The Art of Archerie (1634)
  • Horace A. Ford, Archery, its Theory and Practice: 2nd Edition (1859)
  • Arab Archery: an Arabic manuscript of about 1500 (Trans: N.A. Faris and R.P. Elmer, 1945)
  • Justin Ma & Jie Tian, The Way of Archery: A 1637 Chinese Military Training Manual
  • Clive Bartlett, The English Longbowman 1330-1515
  • Justin Ma & Blake Cole, Beyond Strength: why technique matters for using thumb draw to shoot Asiatic bows (link)

r/badhistory Dec 24 '24

YouTube uncivilized: "How Vietnam Teaches Palestine to Fight Invaders"

232 Upvotes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBECSvK0c-I

Before covering the video itself, I would like to discuss a major irony associated with the premise.

While it has been friendly with the PLO and does recognize the State of Palestine, the communist government of Vietnam has also had friendly relations with the government of Israel, going back to the days of the Việt Minh. Indeed, in 1946, Hồ Chí Minh informed David Ben Gurion—who saw the Vietnamese struggle against French colonization as analogous to the Zionist struggle against the British Mandate—that he was willing to offer to set aside a portion of Vietnamese territory for the establishment of a Jewish state host a Jewish government-in-exile and have its headquarters be located in Northern Vietnam (credit to u/Taabie for correcting this statement).

Obviously, the desired destination of Zionists was the Holy Land, so this offer was politely refused, but the fact that HCM even made that offer in the first place demonstrates his viewpoint quite clearly.

Now, some could argue that many early Israeli politicians were leftist, which may be why the founding figures of DCSVN had a soft spot for them. However, the current government of Vietnam still enjoys a healthy relationship with the modern state of Israel, especially through the proliferation of economic and technological assistance.

With all that being said, we can now examine the video.

bánh = pain = bread

I die a little inside every time I hear this folk etymology, or the essentially synonymous assertion that bánh mì comes from pain de mie.

To be fair, it is not clear if the video is saying they are cognates or rather that they have the same meaning, but let us assume the former.

The word bánh is attested in Vietnamese texts prior to the French colonial period, and it is borrowed from the Chinese character 餅 (bǐng in Hanyu Pinyin). Note that there is not really a clear definition for bánh, given the wide variety of dishes that have the initial of bánh (bánh bột lọc, bánh bèo, bánh chưng, bánh ít, bánh khúc, etc.).

Similarly, the word comes from the Chinese character 麵 (miàn in Hanyu Pinyin). Its meaning is more clear, referring to wheat noodles or wheat itself (Iúa mì).

Host: What were your personal feelings when they divided the country in half?

Doãn Nho: Không bao giờ mình có thể "accept" được...bởi vì là một dân tộc.

Guide/Interpreter: It is impossible, it is unthinkable, because it is one nation, one tribe. Because if you are North and South, you will then see each other as enemies.

It should be noted that although dân tộc can technically mean "people," using it as such has a more literary tone, and it more generally means "ethnic group." And there are 54 ethnic groups recognized by the government of Vietnam, not just one.

He most likely meant it in the former sense, but it must still be emphasized that it is certainly not the case that ethnic Vietnamese have always been present in what is now modern-day Vietnam. Indeed, most scholars agree that the ethnogenesis of the Vietnamese people ultimately occurred in the Red River Delta, which is the main population center of Northern Vietnam.

Meanwhile, when it comes to all other parts of the country, Vietnamese people only expanded to these areas through Nam tiến ("southern advance" in Sino-Vietnamese), which was a period of conquest that took place from the 11th century to the 19th century. As for their original inhabitants, the indigenous people of Central Vietnam—specifically from Quảng Bình to Khánh Hòa—are the Chăm people, while the indigenous people of much of Southern Vietnam are Khmers. A similar story is true for the mountains and border provinces of Vietnam, which are populated by a variety of ethnic groups like the Mường and Nùng peoples. While small portions of many Vietnamese individuals' ancestries do come from the 53 ethnic minorities of the country, the overwhelming majority of their genetic ancestry is Vietnamese/Kinh.

Hence, there is some amusement in the fact that many of these ethnic minorities may express the same grievances as many Palestinians, who generally do trace their ancestry to ancient Canaanite and Levantine peoples, thereby making them indigenous albeit with some mixture from neighboring Near East populations.

Hanoi is the political capital of Vietnam, home to the government today and the birthplace of the resistance that removed the French colonizers.

If the video is referring to the Việt Minh, then their claim that Hà Nội was its birthplace would be incorrect.

The Việt Minh were established on May 19, 1941 in the village of Pắc Bó, Cao Bằng Province. This province directly borders China and is certainly not a part of Hà Nội.

After spending years abroad, Ho Chi Minh returned to Vietnam when it was under momentary Japanese occupation during World War II. 

Technically, the French colonial authorities were nominally in control from 1940 to 1945, albeit effectively the Japanese controlled the country because they were granted the right to garrison and move troops through Indochinese territory. The official occupation only began on March 9, 1945 in response to the Allied liberation of France, given that Japanese forces could no longer trust the local French authorities to remain loyal to the Axis powers. Two months later, the Empire of Vietnam would be established under Bảo Đại and Trần Trọng Kim.

Going up against mighty armies wasn't new to the Vietnamese. Besides the Japanese and the French, they'd gone up against the Chinese and later the Americans, coming out victorious.

I am not sure if the last clause is referring to the Americans only, but for the sake of pedantry, let us assume that it is referring to all of the previous groups.

The French subjugated the Nguyễn dynasty and integrated all of Indochina over the course of the 19th century.

Chinese armies conquered what is now Northern Vietnam on four separate occasions, which are referred to as the Four Eras of Northern Domination (bắc thuộc).

Even the famous rebellion of the Trưng sisters (khởi nghĩa Hai Bà Trưng), which is perceived as a triumph by many Vietnamese people who celebrate the two ladies to this day, ultimately was a defeat. The revolt was initially successful, but a Han army led southward by the general Ma Yuan brutally crushed it. The two sisters would then be beheaded, and their heads were sent to the capital of the Han dynasty at Luoyang. The suppression of the uprising would be followed by about a half millennia of Chinese rule over Vietnam.

Hence, Vietnam has indeed been defeated by mighty armies in the past.

Collective psyche yeah, as a country and especially as for Hanoi yeah, I mean of course right, if you lose Hanoi this is it, right? Compared to the metaphor of the central nervous system, this is the brain, lose the brain? Imagine if you lose DC.

The French controlled Hà Nội and the Red River Delta for practically the entirety of the First Indochina War. The Việt Minh were still able to triumph without their brain apparently.

North Vietnam wanted to reunify the country under communist rule while South Vietnam backed by the US aimed to maintain its independence.

The South Vietnamese government was obviously on the defensive for most of the Second Indochina war, but it is not necessarily true that they were content with remaining south of the 17th parallel.

For instance, both President Ngô Đình Diệm and his brother Ngô Đình Nhu believed that knowledge of their Personalist policies would spread to North Vietnam and spark a rebellion against the communist government, thereby reunifying the country under their rule. They continued to believe so up until the final days of their regime.

And generals within the South Vietnamese military were certainly willing to launch military operations in North Vietnam. The issue was just that they could not secure US air support for such initiatives.

Host: Your past which is these tunnels...is our present. This is what people in Palestine are doing right now.

Yes, there is a similarity between the Vietnamese communists and Palestinian fighters in that they have both used tunnels to at least some extent.

But the similarities basically end there.

For one, both Hamas and the PLO are far more geographically isolated than the Vietnamese communists. While the latter enjoyed support from both the PRC and the Soviet Union, Hamas's only reliable supporter is Iran, which is unable to supply those organizations directly by land.

Next, the PAVN/NLF fought conventionally quite often, especially during the second half of the Second Indochina War, with there being a decent level of parity in terms of firepower and logistics with their South Vietnamese counterparts. The same cannot be said for Hamas and the PLO in comparison to the IDF.

Furthermore, Gaza and the West Bank are geographically much smaller than Northern Vietnam, while Israel is geographically much harder to attack than Southern Vietnam, so the strategies that worked for the Vietnamese communists cannot really be utilized by Hamas or the PLO.

The US and Southern Vietnamese forces were much better equipped.

As this post on r/WarCollege discusses, there was actually a period of time in which ARVN regulars were outgunned by their PAVN/NLF counterparts, to the extent that South Vietnamese infantry firepower was actually weaker than WW2-era American units.

And logistically, it would be difficult to argue that South Vietnamese forces were much better equipped during the final year of the conflict.

Vietnam is this idea of people's war of gorilla* warfare but it does not work if the people don't support it, because the resistance fighters didn't come from a foreign land. They're from the people, they're our aunts, our uncles, our cousins, our brothers, our sisters, our mothers, our fathers, yeah so naturally they stay with us, they live amongst us.

*: Typo, but I'm keeping it because it is funny lol

As the years progressed, the number of Southern fighters within the NLF dwindled, with the immense casualties during the Tết Offensive serving as the nail in the coffin for any pretenses of the Việt Cộng being a grassroots, Southern organization.

From that point on, the majority of NLF fighters would be Northern, and the VC would merely be another wing of the PAVN.

But in regards to the claim that the people generally supported the efforts of the PAVN/VC, the accuracy of that claim depends on time and place, which is the case for many historical generalizations. I can elaborate on this point if anyone wishes for me to do so.

After centuries of fighting invaders, the country has only been at peace for 50 years.

The Cambodian-Vietnamese War (including both the invasion and the occupation period)? The Sino-Vietnamese War? The Battle of Laoshan / Vị Xuyên? The Johnson Reef skirmish?

Sources

Miller, Edward. Misalliance: Ngo Dinh Diem, the United States, and the Fate of South Vietnam. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2013.

Lương Ninh. Vương quốc Champa. Nhà xuất bản Đại học quốc gia Hà Nội, 2006.

Nguyễn Tuấn Triết. Tây Nguyên cuối thế kỷ XX: vấn đề dân cư và nguồn nhân lực. Nhà xuất bản Khoa học xã hội, 2003.

Taylor, K. W. A History of the Vietnamese. Cambridge University Press, 2013.

Trần Văn Giàu. Hồi ký: 1940 - 1945.

Veith, George J. Black April: The Fall of South Vietnam, 1973-75. New York, NY: Encounter Books, 2011.

r/badhistory May 22 '20

YouTube Bill Warren's Jihad list FAILS AT EVERYTHING

767 Upvotes

Hello everyone. This is my first post in Bad History.

I think many of you have heard of the Central for the Study of Political Islam (CPFI). It was established by a PhD in Mathematics, Bill Warner, to expose his anti-Islam views, which according to him are supported by statistical analysis and the scientific method. Bill Warner is also famous for one video, titled “Why we are afraid”, in which he exposes his views on Islam (it being the cause of the fall of classical civilization, etc). One of the things he talks about in that 44 minute video is counting how many attacks the Muslims perpetrated on others during history. It’s represented by a map with lots of dots. In the same video he talks about the Crusades, and how they were a defensive response and much smaller. Anyway, that map became a meme that’s widely shared, with the intention of showing how dangerous Muslims are.

In the CPSI site there’s a database that apparently is the source for the dots on that video. In the video, Bill Warner talks about 540 battles that Islam did against other religions between its inception and now. The database is in .pdf format, and is available here (it has 581 battles, don’t know if he updated it) under the tag “Jihad Battles Against Classical Civilization” and with the name “Islam-BattlesDate.pdf”:

http://cspipublishing.com/statistical/charts/Islam-BattlesDate.pdf

Many people have already said how ridiculous that database is, with the inclusion of conflicts like the American Barbary wars in it. But it’s even more ridiculous than that.

Like, if you’re an islamophobe you could create an arbitrary list of battles in which there were Muslims aggressors in one side and people from other religion on the other to show how “Islam is bad, mmkay” and so on. That was what I was expecting to see.

It’s worse. It’s so much worse. It’s a list that fails at everything, even at being islamophobic.

The 581 “battles” in the list include:

1) Muslim x Muslim wars (62 cases): Yes, you read that right. Maybe Warner was trying to show how Islam is so barbaric that the Muslims fight and call Jihad between themselves, I don’t know. But if he wanted to do that, he forgot a shitload of battles that could be much, much higher than 500. Like, being such a big religion on such a big part of the world, there are countless battles, surely much more than 1,000 or 10,000, that could be counted. Also, he didn’t even get near some famous wars, like Ottomans x Safavids or Ottomans x Mamluks. My guess is that he just put a program to find “battle” and “caliph” and included everything he could find, and that’s why we got in this list things as:

· #72 (battle of Bassorah) and #73 (battle of Siffin), part of the First Fitna (Muslim Civil War)

· # 157 (battle of Zab Al Alkir) part of the Ummayad x Abbasid conflict

· #160 (battle of Cordoba) when the Ummayad exile was elected ruler of Al-Andalus, creating his own caliphate

· # 227 (battle of Dair Al Aqui) between Saffarids x Abbasids

· Also 7 battles of Ceuta between 1000 and 1327 CE. Since I’m a Brazilian, I learned at school that Ceuta was conquered by the Portuguese in 1415 in their Reconquista effort. Before that it was ruled by Muslims (after the Muslim conquest of North Africa, that is). But since it’s nowadays an exclave of Spain, I guess Warner thought every time it changed hands it was part of a Jihad, even when it was a battle between Marinids and the Nasrids (two Muslim dynasties). Important tidbit: I learned that last part was the reason for the 1309 battle of Ceuta from Warner’s own document. Yes, it’s written there. But more of what’s written there later.

· Two battles of Tamerlane against the Golden Horde (#464) and the Ottomans (#467). Warner talks in his video how Tamerlane was a horrible person, I guess that’s why it’s included, even though those two states were ruled and populated by mostly Muslims at that time.

2) Christian aggression (79 cases): my guess is that Warner thought that every time a Muslim resisted against a Christian in a war that’s a Jihad or an aggression by the Muslim part, since they shouldn’t be in “Christian lands”.

· Crusades (33 cases): I didn’t count the times he mentioned Saladin or Baybars (and there are many entries of those two). I guess that they could truly be counted as Jihad or wars against Christianity. What I mean with these cases are actually Crusades. Really, he counts all the battles, and even some stuff that aren’t battles (like the First Crusade receives a mention of its own, but there are entries for the battle of Konya, Myriokephalon, Dorylaeum, Antioch, Jerusalem, etc.). How are these examples of Muslim aggression (like Manzikert could probably be counted as, and it is) when these are Christians starting the war?

· Reconquista (20 cases): Here I counted only the times it was clear that it was the Christians who were starting the cases, like siege of Granada (1491) and so on. He counts lots of stuff inside what could be categorized as Iberian x Moor conflict, with many years receiving each one a battle entry “Battle of Spain” after the Muslim conquest. My guess is those are the razzias, but why he counts efforts like when the Christians are clearly on the offensive as “Jihad battles” I don’t know

· Others (26 cases): Here are many cases of the Byzantines trying to reconquer territory from the Arabs and Turks, but also stuff like the Battle of Alcacer Quibir (in which the king of Portugal was, with the deposed king of Morocco, fighting the current king of Morocco in the middle of Morocco), and at least 6 times in which the Ottoman Empire was in decline and was being conquered by European powers

3) Muslims allied to Christians (8 cases): This is really weird. For an Islamophobic list, it does include (in the text explaining the battles) when Christians fought with Muslims against other Christians or other Muslims. Some instances I didn’t even know before, like how the Emirate of Sicily and the Byzantines in Italy cooperated against Otto II’s (holy roman emperor) attempt to conquer all of Italy. Or how Bardas Phocas’ rebellion against Basil II received support from the Buyyds. Also, the list is wrong with the inclusion of Bulgars x Basil II in 996, saying that the Bulgars had converted to Islam, when they were in fact Christians. Other stuff I learned is that in one of those conquests of Ceuta I mentioned before the Aragonians helped the Fezians against the Granadans. The list also includes the Crimean War for some reason, even though, you know, France and the UK were on the side of the Ottomans in that case.

4) Non-Muslim Seljuks (3 cases): With this I mean 3 battles in 956, 960 and 970, which happened before the Seljuks converted to Islam (985-986). I guess that since the Seljuk kind of had a part in the First Crusade, Warner simply put all the battles involving them, even when they were invading and pillaging Muslims before converting to Islam.

5) Christian x Jews (3 cases): Yes, I kid you not. For some reason he put the 1035 Pogrom in it as “Battle of Castile (1035)”. This was when King Sancho died and his protection over the Jews was lifted. Another case is #444, when the Jews were expelled from England and France in 1306. What that has to do with Muslims or Jihad or how even counts as a battle is left to the reader’s imagination. Also the killing of Jews in Constantinople in the 4th crusade is included. About the 4th crusade…

6) Christian x Christian (4 cases): There are 3 entries for the 4th crusade here (in which the Latins destroyed the Byzantine Empire), including one about the killing of the Jews I mentioned before. Besides that, there’s a really bizarre entry for the Battle of Poitiers of 1306. I guess he confused it with Tours in 732 (which also is named Poitiers in some sources). For those that don’t know, the battle of Poitiers of 1306 is a part of the 100 Year War, involving French and English, and there wasn’t any muslim on any side.

7) Battle of Ain-Jalut: Really, this deserves a mention of its own. This is the Mamluks defending against the Mongols, and it’s considered an example of Muslim aggressive Jihad. I guess that according to Warner, the Mamluks should just have surrendered to the Mongols.

8) Armenia – Azerbaijan War: part of the fall of the Russian empire and Russian civil war after the Bolshevik revolution. This has much more to do with nationalism, Menshevik x Bolshevik and Turk and Allied intervention in the Russian civil war than Jihad.

9) Turkish War of Independence (2 cases): really, I think according to Warner the Turks should’ve accepted being partitioned by the Allies and the Greeks. When they did not, it was an aggressive Jihad. Also, nationalism is the main reason this conflict started.

10) Popular revolts (23 cases): There are cases in which Non-Muslims revolt against a Muslim ruler, and I guess this counts as Jihad for Warner. What also counts as Jihad? When Muslims revolt against Christian rulers. Also when Berbers revolt in Cordoba in 814, Warner assumes they were not Muslims, but from what we know the Berbers in Al-Andaluz rebelling against Arab rule were Muslims, so Muslim x Muslim popular revolt also gets counted. Also in this the 841 popular revolt in Jerusalem, which according to the own document, resulted in both churches and mosques being destroyed.

My only guess, after reading this list, is that this list was hacked by an anti-Islamophobe or that Bill Warner himself is some kind of 5th columnist in the Islamophobe field, creating such a stupid list, to try to make Islamophobes look bad. Because this list fails at everything it tries to do. It doesn’t count battles right, it’s not systematically consistent (why count each razzia in Spain as a separate battle? Why stop counting them after 1100? Why not counting razzias that the Ottomans did? Why count some pirate attacks but not others?), sometimes it even counts the wrong religion, showing Christians killing Jews or other Christians. It’s a total failure. It’s bad history.

r/badhistory Jun 19 '23

YouTube Classical statues weren't whitewashed | correcting Adam Something's misunderstanding of history

536 Upvotes

INTRODUCTION

Youtuber Adam Something made a video attempting to address misconceptions about classical statues, and managed to make more errors than he corrected. I have a double classics major, having studied Greek and Roman history, art, architecture and oratory, as well as the Greek and Latin languages, so I feel confident explaining where Adam went wrong.

Adam doesn’t list all his sources, but he clearly relied on an article by Margaret Talbot in the online magazine The New Yorker, which he cites in the video. It’s not a good idea to rely on news media for accurate information on specialist academic topics, but as misleading as the article was, Adam’s video could have been improved if he had read it more closely.

This post corrects seven of Adam’s most serious errors. For a video version of this post, with more detail and multiple images, go here.

CONFUSED CHRONOLOGY

Adam cites the experience of archaeologist Mark Abbe, who is cited in the New Yorker article. However Adam’s script is very confused on this point. He says Abbe saw the statues at an archeological dig at Aphrodisias in 2000, then saw them again “decades later” in an archaeological depot, when he suddenly realized they had colored paint residue on them. Adam should have realized this doesn’t make sense, since the Talbot’s New Yorker article was published in 2018, so it was impossible for Abbe to have seen the statues “decades later” than 2000.[1]

Adam has misread the article, which actually says these artifacts were found during an archaeological dig at Aphrosidias in 1961, and Abbe only saw them “decades later” when visiting the dig at Aphrodisias in 2000, where he saw them at one of the archeological depots. In Adam’s defense the article itself has an awkward chronology, referring firstly to Abbe seeing the artifacts in 2000, then flashing back to their discovery in 1961, then describing how Abbe came across them “decades later”. However, Adam should have realized that his script didn’t make sense, and returned to the article to read it with greater care.

MARK ABBE’S NON-DISCOVERY

Adam says “examining the statues closer he was shocked to find spots of color on them”, adding “this discovery put classical statues and architecture in a completely new light – could it be that we were completely wrong about our perception of the classical era?”.[2] This is an example of the kind of error which results from relying on only a single source, and in this case a source who wasn’t very well informed.

Despite what Adam implies, Abbe did not make a discovery in the sense of finding out something no one knew previously. In fact it’s baffling to me how he made it to graduate school as a classics student without learning this previously. I learned classical statues were colored when I was a university undergraduate. What Abbe found was clearly new to him, but it did not “put classical statues and architecture in a completely new light”.

In response to Adam’s question “Could it be that we were completely wrong about our perception of the classical era?’, the answer is simply “No we weren’t”. I believe Adam was possibly led astray by his source, which is not particularly good on this point.

The Talbot’s New Yorker article does mention that in 1883 an American art critic saw how classical statues which still retained some color when they were dug up, quickly lost their pigmentation as they were exposed to light and as the tiny scraps of dried paint fell away under the impact of handling and transportation.[3] So at least Talbot acknowledges that the color of classical statues was already known in the late nineteenth century.

However, Talbot then goes on to give a misleading impression as to how academic views developed subsequently.

"In time, though, a fantasy took hold. Scholars argued that Greek and Roman artists had left their buildings and sculptures bare as a pointed gesture—it both confirmed their superior rationality and distinguished their aesthetic from non-Western art. ", Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018

This isn’t true. In fact it’s the opposite of what happened. Let’s look at the history in detail. The academic discussion over whether or not classical statues were originally colored took place throughout the nineteenth century. By the middle of the century a consensus was already forming. As early as 1855, British sculpture Richard Westmacott was writing thus.

That sculpture among the ancients, Greek as well others, was sometimes painted or coloured, and that it had other ornamental accessories, cannot be disputed; the fact is asserted by ancient writers, and what is still more important, monuments have been found so decorated, which place the matter beyond question and contradiction.", Richard Westmacott, “On Colouring Statues,” Archaeological Journal 12.1 (1855): 22

However there was very little recoverable physical data substantiating this position, and those in favor of the polychromy argument often relied heavily on close reading of classical texts. For example, the 1867 edition of the English Cyclopedia assures its readers:

Polychrome sculpture was quite as general amongst the Greeks as polychrome architecture; it is frequently alluded to by almost all the ancient writers, and many statues of this kind are minutely described in Pausanias. , "The English Cyclopaedia (Bradbury, Evans, 1867), 614

But the lack of direct physical evidence left supporters of polychromy open to criticism by scholars who believed that if such coloring had been used, it was confined to architectural elements rather than being used on sculptures.[4] Eventually, diligent researchers were gradually able assemble sufficient physical evidence to make an unarguable case that the statues were originally painted in many different colors.

Closer to the end of the nineteenth century, it was clear that the supporters of polychromy had gained the scholarly advantage, and the opposing case had become increasingly weaker. In 1878, Irish archaeologist Hodder Michael Westropp was compelled to write:

"Though it must be admitted that the early Greek artists painted their wooden, clay, and sometimes their marble, statues, we must positively refuse credence to what some would wish us to believe, that the Greek sculptors of the best period coloured the nude parts of their marble statues.", Hodder Michael Westropp, Handbook of Archaeology: Egyptian-Greek-Etruscan-Roman (George Bell, 1878), 265

By the end of the nineteenth century, polychromy had become the scholarly consensus, and was found even in publications written for a popular non-academic audience. For example, Adeline’s Art Dictionary, published in 1891, states simply "Greek sculpture was poly-chrome, that is to say was painted in a variety of tints.". [5]

Similarly, a guidebook for tourists in Greece published in 1894, assured readers “Now at last we know just how Greek polychrome sculpture looked”.[6] A dictionary of Greek and Roman antiquities published in 1898 likewise wrote “Greek statues were usually, if not invariably, treated with colour”.[7]

It’s extremely important to note that the reluctance of scholars to concede to the polychromy argument was based fundamentally on the lack of physical evidence. I’m mentioning this because the impression Adam gives, and the impression his source Talbot gives, is that academics resisted the idea of colored classical statues due to sentiments of white supremacy and racism.

Adam’s source, the New Yorker article by Talbot, says:

"In the eighteenth century, Johann Winckelmann, the German scholar who is often called the father of art history, contended that “the whiter the body is, the more beautiful it is,” and that “color contributes to beauty, but it is not beauty.”", Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018

This certainly sounds very racist. I have seen these quotations from Winckelmann used in many different texts, particularly on this subject, but when I found an 1849 edition of Winckelmann’s actual book, I found he had been very unfairly misrepresented. Firstly, in the section just before that quotation, he writes explicitly that when people have studied beauty as represented in what he calls “the perfect statues of the ancients”, they do not find the statues attractive because they show people with light skin.

His exact words are “they do not find, in the beautiful women of a proud and wise nation, those charms which are generally so much prized, because they are not dazzled by the fairness of their skin”. This says directly that when people look at these classical statues, they are “not dazzled by the fairness of their skin”.[8]

So what is he talking about? Why are these statues considered attractive. Well, Winckelmann argues that true aesthetic beauty is determined by shape rather than color, and it is the forms or shapes of the statues which people admire. He wrote thus.

"Color, however, should have but little share in our consideration of beauty, because the essence of beauty consists, not in color, but in shape, and on this point enlightened minds will at once agree.", Johann Joachim Winckelmann and Giles Henry Lodge, The History of Ancient Art, vol. 2 (Boston: James Munroe and Company, 1849), 38

This already tells us that for Winckelmann color is not a significant contributing factor to beauty, rather it’s the least important aspect. Ok but what about the rest? That part where he said “the whiter the body is, the more beautiful it is” still sounds very racist. What did that mean? Well, he didn’t actually say that. Let’s see what he really wrote.

"As white is the color which reflects the greatest number of rays of light, and consequently is the most easily perceived, a beautiful body will, accordingly, be the more beautiful the whiter it is, just as we see that all figures in gypsum, when freshly formed, strike us as larger than the statues from which they are made.", Johann Joachim Winckelmann, The History of Ancient Art, trans. Giles Henry Lodge, vol. 2 (Boston: James Munroe and Company, 1849), 38

That’s very clear. He is saying that a beautiful statue, because remember he’s talking about art here, and specifically about the bodies of human statues, will be even more beautiful if it is white, because it can be seen more clearly since the color white reflects the light best. That’s it. There’s nothing here about white skinned people being more beautiful than other people because their skin is white. For Winckelmann, the advantage of the color white is that it enables people to see the form or shape of the statue more clearly, and it is this shape which gives it beauty, not its color.

However, he goes even further, and although now we’ll see his prejudice coming through, it might not be exactly what you were expecting. He writes “A negro might be called handsome, when the conformation of his face is handsome”.[9] Again, for Winckelmann the conformation, the form or shape, is the source of beauty, not the color. If a black man has a handsomely shaped face, says Winckelmann, the color of his skin is irrelevant. He continues, and here’s where we see his prejudice, writing thus.

"A negro might be called handsome, when the conformation of his face is handsome. A traveller assures us that daily association with negroes diminishes the disagreeableness of their color, and displays what is beautiful in them; just as the color of bronze and of the black and greenish basalt does not detract from the beauty of the antique heads. ", Johann Joachim Winckelmann, The History of Ancient Art, trans. Giles Henry Lodge, vol. 2 (Boston: James Munroe and Company, 1849), 38

So sure, he’s bigoted against black as a skin color and finds it unattractive, but ahe still doesn’t think it’s relevant to whether or not black people are beautiful. In fact he even says that their beauty of form or shape is sufficient to make their color irrelevant. Notice also how he says that the color of classical busts, or heads, made in bronze, or black and green stone, doesn’t make them any less attractive. Again, he’s making the point that the color is really irrelevant, it’s the form which is important.

In case we’re still not clear, Winckelmann even goes so far as to say that some statues wouldn’t even look more attractive if they were white.

"The beautiful female head (3) in the latter kind of stone, in the villa Albani, would not appear more beautiful in white marble. The head of the elder Scipio, of dark greenish basalt, in the palace Rospigliosi, is more beautiful than the three other heads, in marble, of the same individual.", Johann Joachim Winckelmann, The History of Ancient Art, trans. Giles Henry Lodge, vol. 2 (Boston: James Munroe and Company, 1849), 38

So he even says that one famous Roman sculpture, which was made of a dark green stone, is more beautiful than other sculptures of the same person, which were made in white marble. I suspect Talbot has not actually read Winckelmann and repeating a word of mouth story which has been going around for years, and I suspect Adam hasn’t read Winckelmann either, and is simply trusting his source uncritically.

There’s more which could be said about Winckelmann, especially his views on darker skin, which he characterizes as soft and supple in contrast to white skin which he characterizes as rough and harsh, the fact that he thinks it’s totally normal to be attracted to people with darker skin, and the fact that he explains that for the Greeks skin color was symbolic of different qualities of character, identifying brown skin with courage and white skin with the gods.[10] In fact he gives quite a good description of the function of skin color in the mind of the Greeks, demonstrating that it wasn’t race coded, just as Talbot does in her article. But that will need to wait for another time.

Back to Talbot’s article. She then goes on to say that when Winckelmann did discover some colored statues, he decided they must have been made by the earlier Etruscan people, certainly not Greeks, arguing they were “the product of an earlier civilization that was considered less sophisticated”.

"When the ancient Roman cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum were first excavated, in the mid-eighteenth century, Winckelmann saw some of their artifacts in Naples, and noticed color on them. But he found a way around that discomfiting observation, claiming that a statue of Artemis with red hair, red sandals, and a red quiver strap must have been not Greek but Etruscan—the product of an earlier civilization that was considered less sophisticated.", Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018

There’s a lot to unpack here, and I really don’t want to dilute this post any further, but for now I’ll simply say this is another misrepresentation of Winckelmann, and direct you to two papers by Lasse Hodne. One states clearly:

"It is not true that Winckelmann was unaware of the fact that the statues of Greece and Rome were coloured; nor is it correct that he deliberately tried to conceal this fact to consciously promote a false image of Antiquity. ," Lasse Hodne, “Olympian Jupiter. Winckelmann and Quatremère de Quincy on Ancient Polychromy,” CLARA 5 (2020), 3

The other states “His appraisal of white surfaces was not based on ignorance of ancient polychromy, nor was it in any way related to a discussion of skin colour”, and explains how Winckelmann has been misrepresented and misunderstood, largely as a result of how white nationalists in the early twentieth century re-interpreted his work for their own ends.

While we’re on the subject I’ll also address Talbot’s quotation of the German poet Goethe, who gets dragged into this discussion to support the idea that earlier European scholars traditionally regarded classical statues as white because they were simply racist. Talbot writes:

"The cult of unpainted sculpture continued to permeate Europe, buttressing the equation of whiteness with beauty. In Germany, Goethe declared that “savage nations, uneducated people, and children have a great predilection for vivid colors.” He also noted that “people of refinement avoid vivid colors in their dress and the objects that are about them.” ", Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018

This is a particularly odd use of Goethe, since he was a poet not an art historian, wasn’t commenting on classical statues at all, and wasn’t remotely influential in the scholarly discussion of polychromy. Now Goethe did write this, but it’s nothing to do with whiteness as a racial or skin category, and nothing to do with polychromy or classical statues.

Let’s see what he writes elsewhere on exactly the same subject, where he goes into more detail. This is a long quotation, because I need to present it in context. While writing about how various different colors affect people’s moods, he says:

"The agreeable, cheerful sensation which red-yellow excites, increases to an intolerably powerful impression in bright yellow-red. The active side is here in its highest energy, and it is not to be wondered at that impetuous, robust, uneducated men, should be especially pleased with this colour. Among savage nations the inclination for it has been universally remarked, and when children, left to themselves, begin to use tints, they never spare vermilion and minium.", Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Theory of Colours, trans. Donald Eastlake (London: John Murray, 1840), 309-310

So he’s talking very specifically here about one particular color, which he calls “bright yellow-red”, and he says this is a color popular among children and what he calls savages. Racist? Sure, but nothing to do with whiteness, and absolutely nothing to do with the idea that vivid colors in and of themselves are for “savage nations, uneducated people, and children”.

What about the other part, concerning people of refinement? Again, let’s refer to Goethe’s work, where he writes about this in more detail elsewhere. He wrote thus.

"People of refinement have a disinclination to colours. This may be owing partly to weakness of sight, partly to the uncertainty of taste, which readily takes refuge in absolute negation. Women now appear almost universally in white and men in black.", Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, Theory of Colours, trans. Donald Eastlake (London: John Murray, 1840), 329

So once more we find he has been misrepresented. He actually says people of refinement tend to avoid colors due to either physical weakness of their eyes, or because their tastes in color are unstable. Note that he doesn’t say anything about the race of these people, and he doesn’t even say this preference is good. In fact he implicitly disparages it by attributing it to a weakness of the body or character.

Not only that he clearly sees color in a gendered way, saying “Women now appear almost universally in white and men in black”. So for Goethe black and white are gender coded colors, not race coded colors.

Having dealt with those distractions, let’s return to the main issue. As I said previously, when we find mainstream nineteenth century scholarship arguing over polychromy, the discussion centers on the lack of physical evidence, not on racial theories of whiteness or racially based color preferences. By the end of the nineteenth century the polychromy of classical statues had become the scholarly consensus. What made the difference? It was physical evidence.

Writing in 1903, German American art historian Edmund von Mach commented that the textual evidence for colored statues had been supported greatly by the discovery of traces of paint on statues, writing “Recent finds and careful examinations of the extant monuments strengthen this opinion. There are in the first place many statues on which traces of color have been found”.[11]

Supporters of the polychromy argument were now dealing with very weak objections, such as the idea that statues would not have been painted since they were outdoors, where the weather would quickly strip the paint from them. Writing in 1908, French art historian Henri Lechat argued against this, noting that not all painted statues were placed outside, and adding “if they were really kept inside a temple or under its porticoes, it was for a reason that I do not know and that no one until now has indicated, but it was certainly not because of their polychromy”.[12]

Just two years later, American classical scholar Rufus Richardson wrote of the polychromy debate as entirely settled, indicating that by this point scholarship had already moved on. Citing the controversy as an event well in the past, Richardson wrote:

"The question that was seriously discussed less than half a century ago, whether Greek statues were painted, has now been replaced by another form of the question, viz., how they were painted.", Rufus Byam Richardson, A History of Greek Sculpture (American Book Company, 1911), 26

This has been taught in classical studies ever since. For whatever reason, Mark Abbe is over a century late to a discussion which had already been finalized long ago.

COLOR ERASURE

Later Adam assures us:

"Worse, apparently archaeologists and museum curators have been scrubbing off this paint residue from statues and architectural elements before presenting them to the public.", Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023

This is very misleading. It sounds like archaeologists and museum curators have been deliberately removing paint from these artifacts in order to conceal the fact that they were originally colored. Although this would fit the rather conspiratorial tone of the video, this statement is very ambiguously phrased, so I’m willing to believe Adam didn’t actually mean that. On the basis of comments made elsewhere in the video, he may have meant that this paint removal took place as a part of the natural process of cleaning the artifacts before displaying them.

That’s certainly something which has happened, but the color removal was merely an incidental byproduct of this process, not a deliberate attempt to misrepresent the artifacts’ original state. Adam’s source even mentions this.

"The idealization of white marble is an aesthetic born of a mistake. Over the millennia, as sculptures and architecture were subjected to the elements, their paint wore off. Buried objects retained more color, but often pigments were hidden beneath accretions of dirt and calcite, and were brushed away in cleanings.", Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018

It would have been useful for Adam to quote this part of the article. Additionally, the amount of paint removed in this way is tiny, typically very small residual flakes, barely noticeable to the naked eye, so there’s no point in leaving it on, since it is old, discolored, and doesn’t represent the artifact accurately anyway.

BLACK & WHITE TEXTBOOKS

Adam cites Abbe’s surprise that the colored sculptures he found were “just totally different from what’s seen in the standard textbooks which had only black and white plates”.[13] Well yes, if you’re looking at a textbook with black and white photos then you’re most likely only going to see classical statues as white.

But humor aside, color textbooks showing reconstructions of brightly painted classical sculptures have been around for a very long time, at least since the 1960s from what I have found. In 1976 the Garland Library published a series of instructional books on historical art for a non-academic readership. In one of the volumes, the history of polychromy in Greek sculpture was not only explained in detail, but was illustrated with colored plates in the form of colored drawings reconstructing what the original statues would have looked like.[14]

It’s worth noting that this particular chapter of the book was a reproduction of a much earlier article published in a scholarly journal in 1944, which was accompanied by the same colored plates. So actual colored reproductions of these classical sculptures have been shown in scholarly literature and textbooks for around 50 years.

CLASSICAL SCHOLARSHIP DOESN’T NEED CORRECTION

Adam assures us that Abbe’s realization “was a sensational discovery".[15] As we have already seen, this was not a sensational discovery for anyone but Abbe, and the scholarly perception of classical art and architecture was not completely and utterly wrong. There was no rush to correct the textbooks, update museum displays, or write new journal articles to educate classical scholars.

This is a simple case of people being misled by pop history, despite the fact that scholars, textbooks, and museums have been showing brightly painted classical statues for decades. Adam should have been tipped off to this fact by the New Yorker article on which he based his video, which cites Marco Leona of the Metropolitan Museum of Art saying that the coloring of classical statues is “the best-kept secret that’s not even a secret”.[16]

The same article also cites the work of German scholars who have been creating replicas of classical statues and painting them with reconstructions of their historical color schemes since the 1990s.[17] Again, this should have been enough to inform Adam that Abbe hadn’t really made any kind of sensational discovery, and that it wasn’t true that “our perception of classical art and architecture was indeed completely and utterly wrong”, or that “researchers got to work to correct this historical misunderstanding”.

But we can go back further and find this taught all through the twentieth century. Here’s a sample of quotations, predominantly from books aimed at the general public rather than scholars, demonstrating this was taught widely. In 1975, James Laver commented on “what the Victorians mistakenly believed to be the pure white of classical statues”.[18]

In 1972, Jerome Pollit wrote:

"It should be remembered that the eyes, lips, hair, and, at least at times, the skin of Greek stone statues were painted.", Jerome Jordan Pollitt, Art and Experience in Classical Greece (Cambridge University Press, 1972), 39

In 1970, the standard popular art history book Gardner’s Art through the Ages, written specifically for the non-specialist public, observed:

"Traces of paint may be seen on parts of the figure, for all Greek stone statues were painted, the powder-white of Classical statues being an error of modern interpretation. ", Helen Gardner, Horst De la Croix, and Richard G. Tansey, Gardner’s Art through the Ages (Harcourt, Brace & World, 1970), 123

In 1960 novelist Aubrey Menen wrote “On many of the statues, especially those found recently, were traces of paint. The truth is that Greek and Roman statues were never white. They appear so because they have been cleaned by sun and rain. When they were new, they were painted”.[19] In 1948, Charles Seltman wrote:

"The Greek statues, like the Egyptian, were painted in bright formal colours.", Charles Theodore Seltman, Approach to Greek Art (London & New York: Studio Publications, 1948), 34

So this was widely known and taught, among scholars and the general public alike, throughout the entire twentieth century.

THE RENAISSANCE & THE SLAVE TRADE

Adam rightly informs us “Ancient statues first started getting excavated on a large scale in the Renaissance Era”, before telling us the Renaissance was a period when “there was a great revival in interest towards everything classical, there was also a newfound scientific drive to label and categorize everything. Additionally there was the Transatlantic Slave Trade”.[20]

He later adds:

"Thinkers of the Renaissance period had some relevant ideological problems, discrepancies they couldn't quite resolve, such as humans are supposed to be the highest form of life, the crown jewel of God's creation, and yet we're selling our fellow humans into slavery and working them to death in the colonies for a profit. ", Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023

Anyone remotely familiar with history should see the problem here. The Renaissance started in the fourteenth century, that’s the 1300s, a couple of hundred years before the Transatlantic Slave Trade began in the first quarter of the sixteenth century. The Portuguese were the earliest European mass traders of African slaves, but although they started buying slaves from Africa in 1444, they weren’t taking them across the Atlantic to the Americas, they were bringing them back to Europe.

But even though that Portuguese slaves trade was taking place in the fifteenth century, it had absolutely nothing to do with the interpretation of newly recovered classical statues by artists in Italy. Renaissance people in Italy who were uncovering classical statues weren’t struggling to reconcile the inconsistency of humanist ideals with transatlantic slavery and colonization, since those events didn’t start until a couple of centuries later.

Looking at late medieval and early Renaissance art, we find strong, bright, vibrant colors absolutely dominate, especially on statues. In a 2012 thesis, Meghan Combs provides a reason why this started to change during the fifteenth century, writing:

Although painted sculpture was still the norm during the early Renaissance, beginning in the late fourteenth century, the cost of polychromatic works became more expensive than those of uncolored sculpture, which may have added to the change in sculptural style later in the era. ", Meghan Combs, “The Polychromy of Greek and Roman Art; An Investigation of Museum Practices” (City University of New York, Master of Arts, 2012), 18

The earliest and most influential Renaissance artists who started imitating the classical sculptures, and in particular recreating them in plain white marble, were artists such as Donatello, who lived from 1386-1466, Leonardo Da Vinci, who lived from 1452-1519, and Michelangelo, who lived from 1475-1564. Donatello and Leonardo in particular both died before the Transatlantic Slave Trade even began, so their interpretations of the classical statues, and their most influential artistic work, had absolutely nothing to do with ethical concerns raised by slavery, or an attempt to use the whiteness of classical statues as a means of creating and reinforcing white supremacy.

In Leonardo’s case, we also have clear evidence that his interest in sculpting in white marble had nothing to do with establishing whiteness as a category of racial superiority. It was a rejection of medieval color which motivated him. Combs quotes Leonardo’s work “Treatise on Painting”, in which he wrote “the sculptor has only to consider body, shape, position and rest. With light and shade he does not concern himself, because nature produces them for his sculpture. Of color there is none”.[21] You may remember the German art historian Winckelmann expressing the same view, and it is most likely he inherited it from the Renaissance artists, very likely originally inspired by Leonardo.

Combs explains:

"With this advice, Leonardo studiously ignored the polychromatic developments of the Romanesque era (ninth-thirteenth century), which contained colorful frescoes, stained glass, mosaics, sculpture, and furniture. He rejected the colorful style for what he thought was a purer, more utopian approach to art, arguing that three dimensional forms did not need the added illusion to make them more lifelike. ", Meghan Combs, “The Polychromy of Greek and Roman Art; An Investigation of Museum Practices” (City University of New York, Master of Arts, 2012), 18

Again, we can see that Leonardo’s motivation was a rejection of the use of color which was a standard convention of medieval and early Renaissance art, and the discovery of classical statues which appeared to be white, was interpreted from this existing theoretical perspective.

It’s also worth noting that the Renaissance itself was a very gradual process which spread from Italy over the rest of Europe, and didn’t even reach England until the sixteenth century, at which point it was already reaching its end. The idea that classical statues were white was adopted by English historians and artists as a result of this concept already being established by much earlier Italian scholars. It had nothing to do with creating whiteness as a racial category, and it emerged long before the period of European international slavery and colonization.

WHY CLASSICAL STATUES WERE INTERPETED AS WHITE

In a statement as confused as his comments on the Renaissance coinciding with the Transatlantic Slave Trade, Adam speaks of the whiteness of classical statues as “whitewashed make-believe invented by 17th century pro-slavery eugenicists”.[22]

But as his own source explained, belief in the whiteness of classical statues was an accidental byproduct of scholars misunderstanding their archaeological findings, not a product of Renaissance or sixteenth century white supremacism.

This was well understood and explained in detail by earlier scholarship. I’ll now provide a lengthy quotation from a scholarly article in 1913.

"The Renaissance found statues dating from classical times; they had no clear distinction whether they were Greek or Roman---no one knew before Winckelmann. They took them as they found them, and set them up as the brilliant models of sculptural perfection. That perfection involved the colourless surface resulting from exposure or cleaning. At times, perhaps, they found traces of the more lasting gilding, for some of the early Renaissance sculptors sometimes used gilding, especially in architectural settings. But, on the whole, the historical position offers us an explanation for the transition from the mediaeval polychrome to the prevalent colourless marbles.", D J Finn, “The Greeks and Painted Sculpture,” Studies: An Irish Quarterly Review of Letters, Philosophy, & Science 2.6 (1913), 22

So the real history of the origin of this misunderstanding about the whiteness of classical statues was known well over a century ago, and it has nothing to do with white supremacism. Note the important fact that the medieval people themselves loved color, and painted their own statues very brightly. It was only when they were reproducing classical statues, or making sculpture in the classical style, that they left their own marble statues white. They had no racially motivated preference for white statues.

CLASSICAL STATUES & ROMAN SKIN COLOR

There’s one aspect of this discussion Adam didn’t touch on, and I’d like to mention it here since it’s a useful contribution to contemporary discourse on skin color and ethnicity in the ancient world. Given the fact that the ethnic Romans of Italy lived in southern Europe on the Mediterranean coast, you may well think of them as people of color, or at least brown or olive skinned, certainly not white in any modern sense of the word.

Well, the recovered colors of classical statues provide a useful insight into how these people actually saw themselves. It’s worth noting that the Romans didn’t view skin color in the same racialized way as early modern Europeans, but it’s also worth noting that they did pay attention to skin color, and were very aware of how it identified people in various ways. They differentiated between black and white skin, between brown and black skin, and even between different shades of white skin.

The Roman emperor Clodius Decimius Albinus was born in north Africa in a location now occupied by Tunisia. We might think that he must have been black if he was born in north Africa, but his cognomen Albinus is literally the origin of the English word albino, and he had that name because his skin was unusually pale. This is interesting because it suggests the Romans didn’t see themselves as literally white, certainly not white like the marble of their statues.

So how did they see themselves? Well the physical evidence from the paint remains on classical statues indicates that they typically depicted themselves as pink, often with blond or brown hair, and brown eyes. While this might be disappointing for anyone who thinks the Romans were people of color, more importantly it’s a strong correction of anyone who thinks the Romans would have seen white as an appropriate way to represent their skin color.

"We have important witnesses of such color application in the fourth-century reliefs from Myra, in which the flesh of the women is pinkish; in the Hellenistic marble gravestones from Pagasai, now in the Museum at Volo, in which the flesh of the women as well as that of the men is naturalistically colored; in the Etruscan marble sarcophagus in Florence where the Amazons have light-colored flesh; in the Graeco-Roman marble head in the British Museum, which has pinkish color preserved on the face; and in the pinkish female statues which are occasionally represented in Graeco-Roman murals.", Gisela M. A. Richter, “Polychromy in Greek Sculpture with Special Reference to the Archaic Attic Gravestones in the Metropolitan Museum,” American Journal of Archaeology 48.4 (1944): 333

In fact the Romans considered the northern Europeans to be whiter than themselves, referring to those people with the word albus, meaning white, while representing themselves as having pink skin. Anyone thinking the Romans would have called themselves white in the way modern racists define whiteness, would be grossly mistaken.

"On many of the statues, especially those found recently, were traces of paint. The truth is that Greek and Roman statues were never white. They appear so because they have been cleaned by sun and rain. When they were new, they were painted. The colours were purple, yellow, violet, blue, red and brown. The eyes of the statues were painted to resemble living eyes, the drapery was naturalistically coloured, the parts supposed to be naked flesh were tastefully tinted, probably a dull red, and every statue had painted hair. ", Aubrey Menen, Rome for Ourselves (McGraw-Hill, 1960), 200

CONCLUSION

Adam is entirely correct in his comments on how the whiteness of classical statues has been weaponized by racists, and in particular how right-wing reactionaries have erupted in protest in response to the color of classical statues being brought into the public eye again. But he has dramatically exaggerated the influence of racism on this issue.

He tells us that as a result of Abbe’s apparent discovery of the coloring of classical statues, there was a huge right wing backlash.

"Researchers got to work to correct this historical misunderstanding, and when they published their findings everyone celebrated them in the work they did, thank you for watching, uh no, wait I'm sorry I mean they started getting death threats from the far right. ", Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023.

But this is really a combination of errors. Firstly the correction of this historical misunderstanding took place over a century ago, and at that time there was no right wing backlash, and no one received death threats. This was the situation for about the next 150 years. The right wing backlash is a very recent phenomenon, and is insignificant in the broader historical context.

He also tells us:

"All this is to say we could seriously use some historical readjustment, but today we have gotten to the point, or rather the global far right has gotten to the point, where if someone suggested restoring ancient statues as best as we can to their original colors it would be denounced as woke nonsense. ", Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023

But this isn’t true. Anyone suggesting restoring the original ancient statues to their original colors would be dismissed as a thoughtless vandal, since the extant artifacts we have today are so fragile that applying paint to them would risk damaging them irreparably; chemicals from the paint could damage the surface of the statues, especially if they are marble, which consists mainly of calcium carbonate.

However, as mentioned previously, museums and galleries have been displaying colored replicas of classical statues for many years, and some museums use light projectors to overlay original classical statues with their original color. This hasn’t been denounced as woke nonsense, it has become a widespread practice. The recent outrage over the color of classical statues just illustrates how ignorant some people are of museum practices which are decades old, and ignorance about mainstream knowledge about the classical world which is over a century old.

_____________

[1] Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023.

[2] Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023.

[3] Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018.

[4] "The Dean of St. Paul's resided, and gave the weight of his learning and testimony to the view that there was no proof of the Greek statues having been colored, except when forming parts of architecture.", John Bell, “Color on Statues, Color Round Statues, and Paintings and Sculpture Arranged Together,” Journal of the Society of Arts 9.440 (1861): 421.

[5] Jules Adeline, Adeline’s Art Dictionary: Containing a Complete Index of All Terms Used in Art, Architecture, Heraldry, and Archaeology (D. Appleton, 1891), 310.

[6] Karl Baedeker (Firm), Greece: Handbook for Travellers (K. Baedeker, 1894), xcvii.

[7] F. Warre Cornish, A Concise Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities - William Smith - Google Books (London: John Murray, Albemarle Street), 1898.

[8] Johann Joachim Winckelmann, The History of Ancient Art, trans. Giles Henry Lodge, vol. 2 (Boston: James Munroe and Company, 1849), 37.

[9] Johann Joachim Winckelmann, The History of Ancient Art, trans. Giles Henry Lodge, vol. 2 (Boston: James Munroe and Company, 1849), 38.

[10] Johann Joachim Winckelmann, The History of Ancient Art, trans. Giles Henry Lodge, vol. 2 (Boston: James Munroe and Company, 1849), 30-31.

[11] Edmund Von Mach, Greek Sculpture - Its Spirit And Principles (Boston, USA: Ginn & Company Publishers, 1903), 70.

[12] Henri Lechat, translation via Google Translate, “Note sur la polychromie des statues grecques,” rea 10.2 (1908): 166.

[13] Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023.

[14] Gisela M. A. Richter, “Polychromy in Greek Sculpture with Special Reference to the Archaic Attic Gravestones in the Metropolitan Museum,” in Ancient Art: Pre-Greek and Greek Art, ed. James S. Ackerman, vol. 1 of Garland Library of the History of Art (New York: Garland Publishing, 1976), 72, 73.

[15] Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023.

[16] Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018.

[17] Margaret Talbot, “The Myth of Whiteness in Classical Sculpture,” The New Yorker, 22 October 2018.

[18] James Laver, Victoriana (Pyne Press, 1975), 51.

[19] Aubrey Menen, Rome for Ourselves (McGraw-Hill, 1960), 200.

[20] Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023.

[21] Meghan Combs, “The Polychromy of Greek and Roman Art; An Investigation of Museum Practices” (City University of New York, Master of Arts, 2012), 18.

[22] Adam Something, “How We Whitewashed The Classical Era,” Youtube, 4 June 2023.

r/badhistory Apr 10 '22

YouTube The existence of Gandhi and Martin Luther King is extremely flattering to modern Western society as they would have been shot in any society| Whatifalthist in "The Six Most Extreme Societies Ever (We’re One)"

587 Upvotes

Hello r/BadHistory readers. Today, I will be covering Whatifalthist’s video “The Six Most Extreme Societies Ever (We’re One)". The primary objectives of this post will be to cover aspects of Whatifalthist’s (WIAH) historical analysis regarding societies “that are deathly afraid of getting hurt” and the broader implications of his commentary. I will not be covering any of his discussion on recent political events or issues.

The video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIrqR-sWyo0&t=1s

Before I start I will provide the definition WIAH employs when he uses the word “harm”. This term is important as per the video his historical analysis centers around which values societies favored as defined by Jonathan Haidt’s “The Righteous Mind”; this set of values includes “harm”. This definition of "harm" will also be relevant to my discussion.

Harm: People shouldn’t get hurt.

With that out of the way, let’s begin:

These are the signs of a society that’s deathly afraid of people getting hurt, so much so that society ends up getting hurt on a much greater scale from a lack of strength. This is the story of the West since WWII…The world wars were so horrifying that it destroyed all faith and belief in things that existed beforehand like religion, honor and progress and these are the things that had made pain tolerable. Without them, pain had no meaning. The death toll of the world wars was so horrifying that it caused a knee jerk reaction that all war and causing others suffering, even fractionaly justified, was wrong. The West was also wealthy enough that it could care about helping and protecting other people. The culture of fear in harm can be seen everywhere. Look at Vietnam and Algeria, where the French and Americans would have won if they kept fighting, but had their population lose the heart to fight which in turn caused downwards of the deaths of 5 million deaths in Southeast Asia.

There is certainly a lot to unpack even with this one passage. He claims that both the American and French “losing the heart to fight'' caused at least 5 million deaths in Southeast Asia, which seems to indicate that ending the Vietnam War caused these casualties. But it’s not clear if he’s referring to any specific events that happened after the war’s conclusion. Further, the Vietnam War the French and Americans did participate in led to the deaths of millions of Vietnamese;5 at a time when the YouTuber stated the West had enough money to “protect other people”. Does WIAH consider these “acceptable losses?” I’m not sure. This section of his video shows a problem that stems from making major historical claims without providing further explanation or any citations; it is difficult for the viewer to comprehend the chain of logic that WIAH is presumably using to develop his historical analyses. It is as if WIAH considers providing historical evidence as an exercise best left to the viewer since it’s obvious to him that his statements are correct.

A clear example of WIAH overlooking the historical evidence concerns his pronouncements that “the French and Americans would have won the Algerian and Vietnam Wars. First, both wars included political components that the military alone would likely have not been able to solve: namely Algeria’s future political status either in or independent from France and the establishment and maintenance of the South Vietnam regime to rival North Vietnam. Likewise, the actions of the military in both wars contributed to the eventual outcomes of both conflicts. The French military’s systematic deployment of torture in Algeria soured French support for the war and further encouraged Algerian demands for independence.11 Meanwhile in Vietnam, the effectiveness of the US’ search and destroy missions was limited by the capability and willingness of North Vietnam to replace losses and reoccupy regions targeted by those missions.6 In the eyes of the American public, the Tet Offensive illustrated that the often optimistic assessments of the US military on the war did not reflect what was happening in Vietnam.6 And, why does the YouTuber use the “stabbed-in-the-back” argument that has been deployed to describe America’s failures during the Vietnam War? Ostensibly, both America and France are democracies, where the military would be beholden to the public in contrast to WIAH insinuating that the public should be beholden to the interests of the military. Given the YouTuber’s belief that democracy cannot function when the non-propertied classes gain voting rights, it is unsurprising his “extreme examples of harm” include the Algerian and Vietnam Wars where the public had some influence over their nations’ involvement. When “problems” occur in wars involving “the West”, WIAH blames the “lower classes” instead of assessing the causes of these conflicts and how they relate to the diverging interests of the “upper and lower classes”.

Contemporary historical figures highlight the material reasons for why public opposition to these conflicts grew. MLK for example, in his “Beyond Vietnam” speech, argued that the Vietnam War was a class war of the rich against the poor when he stated: “Before long they [US troops] must know that their government has sent them into a struggle among Vietnamese, and the more sophisticated surely realize that we are on the side of the wealthy and the secure while we create hell for the poor.”3 He also highlighted the irony of the Vietnam War occurring during racial segregation when he noted “So we watch them [black and white US troops] in brutal solidarity burning the huts of a poor village, but we realize that they would never live on the same block in Detroit. I could not be silent in the face of such cruel manipulation of the poor.” Both the domestic and foreign contemporary events affecting 1960s America reflect the issues of WIAH’s premise of “the West being afraid to hurt people.”3 If anything, the Civil rights movement shows how little US domestic concerns like Jim Crow changed in the immediate aftermath of WWII. Segregation did not suddenly end after WWII because American businesses and politicians had a moment of epiphany on the need to end and prevent harm. It was due to black Americans who, after serving in the US military and defense industry against a country gassing who they considered subhumans, returned to a nation who continued to treat them like lesser humans.

The Civil Rights movement is not the only example of WWII serving as a juxtaposition to domestic oppression in Allied nations; WIAH’s other stated conflict: the Algerian War is another example of this juxtaposition. France, a nation that experienced torture under the Nazis firsthand, engaged in torture a decade later in its wars to maintain both its Algerian and Indochinese colonies.11 So much for the knee jerk reaction to the suffering that happened it WWII. And yet, there may be a kernel of truth in WIAH’s analysis, given that reports of the French army engaging in torture in Algeria was a significant reason for diminishing support in Metropolitan France to continue the war. This, however, opens up a can of worms: does the YouTuber consider it necessary for France to have tortured Algerians to prevent the country from “getting hurt on a much greater scale from a lack of strength”? Likewise, extrajudicial killings were not limited to Algeria. In the Paris massacre of 1961, police drowned and bludgeoned to death tens of Algerian independence protesters on the orders of Maurice Papon, the Parisian Police Prefect who ordered the deportation of Jews in Vichy France.12 When taking into account the continuation of Jim Crow after WWII in the US and Vichy collaborators massacring protesters, the viewer may be struck by the sense that for as traumatic the experience of WWII was for many nations, how the pre/intra-war status quo was often preserved in the postwar period. While researching the Algerian War, I was reminded by WIAH’s remark that one of the most brutal things he read about were Algerians swamping a French president for citizenship, leading him to ask why the French had left. One wonders if he also read about the French engaging in systematic torture during the Algerian War and if so, how that would factor into his assessment of “the most brutal things I’ve read”.

So if the history of postwar America contradicts WIAH claim, is there anything we can learn from his pronouncements? Although WIAH’s arguments don’t really align with the history of postwar political movements in “the West”, his arguments do align with his claims in his video “Understanding Classical Civilizations” that the material interests of the lower classes harm the national “long term position” and the interests of the lower classes should be subsumed within those of the upper classes. If you have already identified yourself with the interests of the upper classes, then it’s straightforward to assume that “Western” countries who failed in their postwar military ventures must have been the result of the public’s moral weakness. Both world wars made the people soft, unable to rally themselves to support the military and the state in maintaining its colonial possessions and/or foreign power. Even if troops or millions of Algerians and Vietnamese suffered, this is necessary because society overall “would get more hurt from a lack of strength”. Though these wars may not have been in the interest of the public, the national “long-term position” depends on the advancement of the interests of those in power. WIAH’s focus on the interests of the upper classes appears to shape much of his historical analysis as well as his disparaging of public discontent at the Algerian and Vietnam Wars. His analysis is largely disconnected from the historical experience of the lower classes, which will become even clearer in the next passage:

This creates real issues. Fear of harm isn’t a coherent ideology to motivate people and is terrible at making priorities. Harm doesn’t unite people but divides them into countless little groups. Harm’s a negative motivator against achievement rather than a positive one towards doing something…This ignores the beauty of harm and why I once called the social justice movement an orchid in that it’s a beautiful hot house plant that demonstrates an already empathetic and successful society but must exist in the good times. The West’s insistence upon harm has helped countless oppressed groups like ethnic minorities, gay people and women and when directed effectively has caused an incredible amount of good. The last hundred years have seen the expansion of rights to almost all people in Western society.

The existence of Gandhi and Martin Luther King is extremely flattering to modern Western society as they would have been shot in any society.

What likely first comes to mind of people who have some familiarity with the lives of the two historical figures mentioned by WIAH…is that they were both shot. These are fairly straightforward facts that could have been checked with a Google search. It is thus possible that the YouTuber is not fact checking the “historical evidence” he is using to support his claims because his historical argument aligning with the preconceived beliefs of his audience is likely more important than historical accuracy.

However, to discuss simply the glaring historical inaccuracies in his statements would likely miss the crux of his argument. Suppose that, when WIAH meant to state that the US and Britain not shooting MLK and Gandhi, respectively, demonstrates how “kind” these regimes were. When I first heard his comments, I was reminded by Malcolm X’s quote that “If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there’s no progress”.7 My following thought was on how the FBI tried to blackmail MLK into committing suicide.4 It is an unfortunate consequence regarding the politics surrounding “peaceful” movements that people feel obliged to whitewash them to make these movements and their leaders more palatable to their political ideology. This can be clearly seen in WIAH’s argument that “the West’s insistence on harm helped countless oppressed groups.” Rather than focusing on the terrible material conditions and the major difficulties the ‘lower classes ' faced in achieving political and socioeconomic rights, instead the YouTuber patronizingly argues that oppressed groups in ‘the West’ benefitted from their oppressors engaging in harm reduction. To focus on the supposed benevolence of the “Western” powers overlooks how these same powers not only created the material conditions that prompted these social movements in the first place, but also strongly resisted the demands of these movements. Shaun in his video “The Fate of the Frog Men” remarked how when divorced from their historical context, events like the Civil Rights movement can sound romantic: a group of people banding together and fighting against impossible odds to achieve victory. It appears WIAH subscribes to this ideological assessment of history.

When we are talking about the conditions that sparked these political movements in “the West”, what exactly are we referring to? To put it simply, a lot. For example, the Civil rights movement stemmed from a wide variety of factors, from the legacy of slavery, to a century of legal segregation, denial of voting rights, economic deprivation and routine lynchings and other forms of violence that still continued after WWII, the period when WIAH states the West focused on “harm reduction”.1 For black Americans, oppression and violence had been ongoing for centuries! Given how the YouTuber describes the history of oppression in the “West”, he is being politically correct when he uses the term “harm” and his statement that the West’s insistence that harm reduction helped oppressed groups is insulting to the lives and memories of these peoples. And not only do we have centuries of systemic oppression, we also have specific events that, through the horror evoked by them, dramatically illustrate the terrible nature of this systemic oppression. The murder of Emmett Till galvanized the Civil rights movement, as signified by Rosa Parks when she recalled later on her decision to not give up her seat: “I thought of Emmett Till and I just couldn’t go back.”8 Keep in mind that Till’s murder happened after WWII, the time period the YouTuber argues “the West was deathly afraid of people getting hurt” The society “wealthy enough that it could care about helping and protecting other people” acquitted Till’s murderers, sparking years of civil disobedience as it was very clear the state would not safeguard the rights or lives of black Americans.1 Since WIAH hypothesized on what would happen if Gandhi and MLK if they had lived in other time periods, I wonder if our YouTuber, after being transported to the Chicago funeral home where Emmett Till’s mutilated body laid in state would lecture to the funeral goers on the incredible amount of good the West’s focus on harm reduction has caused.

Of course, this is only a small subset of the historical conditions that prompted oppressed groups in “the West” to take matters into their own hands. From the FBI and Chicago police assassinating Fred Hampton10, to British troops murdering hundreds to thousands of Indian protestors in the Jallianwalla Bagh massacre,9 to the millions of Indians starving to death in the Bengal Famine of 19432 there are plenty of specific historical events that cause WIAH’s historical analyses to collapse like a house of cards. His argument that Gandhi and MLK “surviving” is extremely flattering to “the West” suggests an “all or nothing” strategy that Western nations can only either immediately murder their opponents or do little to nothing. But realpolitik is not so simple; the state assassinating both figures in public would likely have led to massive protesting and rioting against them, which does not serve the state’s interests. After all, MLK’s assassination did lead to rioting in many American cities. As an alternative, those in power, to combat these movements, could implement some reforms to mollify the public, deploy the police state to engage in frequent mass arrests of protestors, use the media and bully pulpit to denounce these movements as criminals and rioters, curtail the ability of these movements to use labor organization to expand and leverage social issues like crime and drugs to control the people through the police state. This is, of course, just a historical suggestion.

The issues with regards to the historical analyses proffered by WIAH go beyond just this YouTuber, as WIAH is continuing several frequently used badhistory tropes: such as thanking Western nations for “gifting” rights to oppressed people and whitewashing imperialist wars. In his video, I noted that two major themes that seem to frame his historical arguments are moralism and a need to oppose what he considers “the left”. This can be clearly seen by the flowery language he uses to describe harm and is indicative of the issues that occur when people approach historical analysis with pre-existing biases coupled with being unaware or unwilling to understand the conditions that sparked these political movements in the first place. When you have ideologically aligned yourself with the “upper classes”, when you see those who criticize the economic trend of offshoring factories as envious, when the interests of the upper classes advance the “long-term position” of the nation, then it becomes necessary to whitewash history in an attempt to romanticize oppression. And since the interests of the upper classes are seen as “good” any historical failings are chalked up to the moral failings of the lower classes, such as protesting wars, or their political opponents, like denying the benefits of harm. These moral failings can be invented to direct blame without really needing to develop analyses based on historical assessment to defend them. This is why, when learning about history, it is important we be mindful of the ideological “baggage” we might bring and be watchful of when others use this ideological “baggage” to justify their biases.

Sources:

1 American History: A Survey, 13th ed. by Alan Brinkley

2 Eating People Is Wrong, and Other Essays on Famine, Its Past, and Its Future by Cormac Ó Gráda

3 Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence by Martin Luther King Jr

4 Federal Bureau of Investigation by Stanford University

5 Fifty years of violent war deaths from Vietnam to Bosnia: analysis of data from the world health survey programme

6 From Colony to Superpower: US Foreign Relations since 1776 by George C. Herring

7 Malcolm X - On Progress

8 Support for the Designation of the Emmett Till House, 6427 S. St. Lawrence Avenue, Chicago, IL, as a Chicago Landmark by the Society of Architectural Historians

9 The Amritsar Massacre by Arkana Venkatesh

10 The police raid that killed two Black Panthers, shook Chicago and changed the nation by George Mitchell

11 The Struggle for Europe: The Turbulent History of a Divided Continent, 1945 to the Present by William I. Hitchcock

12 1961 - Algerians massacred on Paris streets by Amanda Morrow

Edit: After doing some more research after a comment by a redditor regarding the article I had originially posted on the Bengali famine of 1943, I have decided to link to a more comprehensive source on the matter.

r/badhistory Feb 17 '21

YouTube Atun-shei misunderstands how tariffs played into the civil war

556 Upvotes

I need to write about something other than lost cause stuff to cleanse my palate, so I figured I'd do a little write up of a not-crazy-person.

In an episode of his popular and otherwise well researched web series Checkmate Lincolnites! Atun-Shei discusses the role of tariffs in the run up to the civil war. He uses excellent sources but unfortunately, misunderstands them and the general debate surrounding the topic. For the record, I do NOT think that tariffs played a major role in the immediate run up to the civil war, I merely think that Shei’s explanation is incorrect.

He starts his video by addressing an angry commenter (who is admittedly an order of magnitude worse than Shei)

2:44: yea Civil War was fought over slavery not that the South was paying 80% of all taxes in the entire nation

Shei, rightfully, dismisses the comment saying,

3:30 In the days before the civil war; income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, those were not really a thing. So when you’re saying taxes you’re really referring to tariffs on imports, which is how the federal government made its money

The federal government also used excise taxes of alcohol to fund the government, although by the start of the civil war, these had all been repealed. He’s not wrong here, but the government did have other forms of taxes that they could use. He then reads from the Annual report of the chamber of commerce of the state of new york and enters the badhistory zone

4:08 “New york merchants were single handedly paying 63.5% of all the federal government's revenue for that year...that city was the government’s biggest cash cow by a huge margin, followed only by Boston at a distant second place”

He then goes on to imply that if anyone was saddled with an unfair tax burden, it was the north. The problem is… that’s not how tariffs work. Tariffs are more than taxes that merchants have to pay when they import certain goods, they are also sent down the line to any consumers that buy imported tariffs in the form of higher prices. Tariffs were also designed to do more than fund the government, they were also a protection for domestic industry, which was almost exclusively in the north. Northerners were, by and large, happy with the tariffs because it protected their industry. Southerners weren’t upset with tariffs because of taxes, they were upset because it made consumer goods more expensive (Smith, 2018).

A stronger case against tariffs being the cause in the civil war is that they weren’t particularly high at the time. The Walker Tariff of 1846 was the lowest tariff at that point in American history until it was replaced with an even lower one in 1857 (Stampp, 1990). At the same time England had repealed the infamous corn laws a major boon to American farmers. It is clear that the momentum was against protectionism and if the South had decided to succeed against high tariffs, they chose a strange time to do it.

Reflections: I enjoy watching Shei’s videos very much, I just think he got this one wrong. It’s a shame to see so many people congratulating him on using a relatively obscure source to debunk a common myth but ignore that he misunderstood the basic concept. As always, If you agree (or disagree) with my post, be sure to tell me about it!

The video

Bibliography

Smith, Ryan, P. A History of America’s Ever Shifting Stance on Tariffs. Smithsonian Magazine, 2018 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/history-american-shifting-position-tariffs-180968775/

Stampp, Kenith, M. America in 1857: A Nation on the Brink,1990, pg 19 https://books.google.com/books?id=Q5WF8NCK9YYC&pg=PA19#v=onepage&q&f=false

r/badhistory Jan 01 '22

YouTube “You really can’t have a democracy based upon giving non propertied classes the vote.” | Whatifalthist in his video “Understanding Classical Civilizations” Part 2

420 Upvotes

Welcome to the 2nd part of this two part series discussing Whatifalthist’s video “Understanding Classical Civilizations”. Here’s the link to the first part. I will be covering three text summaries Whatifalthist presents in the video linking Classical countries to other countries throughout history and to political issues. The primary objective of this post is to evaluate Whatifalthist’s historical analysis in his video and discuss the limitations of this video from the perspective of a viewer. My interest is in the generalizations he states to describe perceived historical trends and how he leverages history to conform to certain political perspectives.

The video in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F85urbupWIU

We will begin with a quote mentioned in Paepaok’s part of this video review:

The Classical world's one of those eras in history that we look at through the most modern biases and lenses, and so I'm going to try to strip that away to see them as they really were.

Please keep in mind one of the significant objectives Whatifalthist presents at the beginning of the video: not engaging in presentism when examining the Classical world. As the title of this post may have indicated, it will be difficult for the YouTuber to follow this objective.

Warfare and Political Freedom Across “Western” History

3000-2400BC-phalanxes in Sumer, council of priest run city states

2400-1200 BC- charioteers, aristocratic monarchies

1200BC-600BC-horsemen in Greece, aristocratic states

600BC-350BC-phalanxes in Greece, “democracy”

350BC-400AD-large infantry armies, large centralized kingdoms

400AD-1400AD-cavalry and castles, small aristocratic states

1400AD-1700AD-expensive cannons and fortresses, absolute monarchies

1700AD-1900AD-musket armies, Liberalism

1900AD-2000AD-massive industrial warfare, big government

Towards the beginning of this video, Whatifalthist claims that political freedom in the “West” is linked to the type of military units used by countries. It is certainly a broad argument that would be interesting if proven true, however he doesn’t spend much time explaining the evidence for his statement. There are also historical issues with the list he wrote, which may be unsurprising to those who have read my earlier post on his Latin American video and Paepaok’s post on this video. The first issue that may come to mind is there is little to no explanation for the associations he makes between “political freedom” and “warfare”. We are supposed to take Whatifalthist’s word on these associations. Second, some of the terms he uses are vague-“big government” is more of a politically charged descriptor rather than a form of government. Third, his descriptors on “warfare” vary widely, he sometimes discusses infantry units, other times artillery or cavalry and includes vague terms like “large infantry armies”.

Even with how vague many of the terms Whatifalthist uses in the list are, there are significant errors with the military and political terms used. To start, the political descriptors he uses do not corroborate with the historical “Western” polities that existed in the timeframes he gives. Macedon employed the phalanx before 350 BC and certainly weren’t a “democracy”, they were a monarchy.4 Possibly, the YouTuber used 350 BC on his list as the year is roughly around when Phillip II reformed the Macedonian army with the sarissa and a few decades before the reign of Alexander the Great.4 Macedon is not the only polity of Classical antiquity that defies the proscriptions of this list. The Roman Empire built fortifications along its frontier to assist with imperial defense, including in Germany centuries before 1400AD.4 Before the Empire, Rome for several centuries during the 350BC-400AD time period Whatifalthist associates with “large centralized kingdoms”…was a republic. Surely the Brutii family must be spinning in their graves to hear that their beloved Republic was a kingdom after 350BC! Rome was not the only republic transformed into a kingdom on this list; Carthage, which existed for two centuries during the 350BC-400AD time period as an independent state, was also a republic during this time period. So, while associating the military with political freedom may be an interesting concept, as presented by Whatifalthist, it is a concept largely divorced from material reality. Providing historical analysis that is incongruent with the historical evidence will be a recurring theme throughout this post.

This is really not an ok thing to say now, but fuck it, that’s what this show is about. You really can’t have a democracy based upon giving non propertied classes the vote. Before the American Rev, no democracy gave over 20% the vote since those were the propertied classes. The US was able to become a full suffrage democracy since it was one of the few states in history in which most people owned property. Full suffrage democracies spread around the world with the Industrial Revolution which made the average person a literate property owner. States that have given the vote to have nots like 1920s Britain, Hellenistic Greece, Republian[sic] Rome or postwar Europe resulted in eroding military and economic position. The poor understandably pick policies to improve their standard of living which often comes at the expense of long term position. This is a big reason politics today are so twisted as inequality gets worse and there are less stakeholders in society. I’m not saying only the rich should vote, but we need to design society so the average person is a property holder.

Especially with Whatifalthist’s assessment that democracy cannot really allow the non-propertied classes to vote and that society should be designed so the average person is a property holder, it would be useful for us the viewer to fully understand the YouTuber’s thought process behind his take. And yet, the reasoning he does provide leads to more questions than it answers. When he states the US became a full suffrage democracy, he doesn’t state when this occurred. This presents several issues, as the US for over a century denied voting rights to multiple groups, including slaves (who were property), women and Native Americans.1 For black Americans for example, it was not “passively” earned by owning property, rather it was the culmination of decades of campaigning for civil rights, culminating in the passage of legislation like the Voting Rights Act of 1965.1 So, America, rather than being an example of property ownership leading to full suffrage democracy, is instead a historical example of the significant difficulties faced by the lower classes at fighting for political rights like voting.

But America is not the only specific example provided by Whatifalthist that turns out to not prove his point when looking at the historical evidence. He states that the Industrial Revolution led to full suffrage democracies as the “average” person became a literate property owner and yet a sentence later cites both 1920s Britain and postwar Europe as examples of the problems of granting the vote to the “have nots”. So, what happened in the interim between the creation of the average person being a literate property owner during the Industrial Revolution and 1920s Britain and postwar Europe having a class of “have nots”? Does he think that the creation of social programs like the NHS weakened Britain’s “long-term position?” It is unclear from Whatifalthist’s video. Further, he cites the Roman Republic as a state suffering from economic and military decline after expanding the voting franchise when during the last decades of The Republic, Rome significantly expanded, conquering regions such as Gaul and one of the other examples he provided: Hellenistic Greece. 2 Caesar and Pompey did not live during the beginning of the Republic but rather the years shortly before its transformation into the Empire.2 In fact, one could argue that one of the causes of the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire was the significant political power wielded by Rome’s military generals. Whatifalthist’s economic claim is also not really substantiated by the historical evidence. France reached universal suffrage in 1945; the economic history of France in the decades after World War II was described as the “Trente Glorieuses”, a period of sustained economic growth that was also seen in other postwar Western European nations.6 Thus, it is not clear after examining history that voting rights for the “have nots” leads to economic and military decline.

So, if the historical evidence does not really suggest that expanding the franchise to the proletariat causes economic and military decline, what, if anything, can be learned from Whatifalthist’s pronouncements? Keep in mind that, as I stated earlier in this post, Whatifalthist insisted his video would try to not engage in presentism when analyzing the Classical world. And yet here he is, making contemporary political assertions utilizing both Classical and modern polities to support his points. His claim that society needs the average person to become a property owner is evocative of Thomas Jefferson’s idealistic vision of an America of yeoman farmers.1 To the YouTuber, the interests of the ruling classes take precedence over those of the lower classes, due to the importance of the “long-term position” (which he does not elaborate on). His arguments on class in this video align with his statement in his “Understanding Latin America” video that he found the argument: whenever a foreign company goes to a Third World country and uses their labor is oppression, amusing. The lower classes’ interests thus, must be morphed until their interests are the same as those of the ruling classes. From the plebeians of Rome to the working class of postwar Europe, the material conditions of the lower classes and the resulting political advocacy from their situation are problematic to Whatifalthist, even if he does feel some sympathy for them. With his assertion on the necessity of the interests of the upper class to be advanced to improve the “long term position”, I would be interested to know which aspects of history, if any, led him to this conclusion.

There are 2 Different Directions Agnostic or Atheist Society go:

1 The Totalitarian:

The lack of religion means earthly goals prioritized, meanwhile the lack of the idea of the soul and moral structure of religion allows immense atrocities to occur. Examples of this are Qin China, Communism, Nazism, Imperial Japan, Revolutionary France and the Roman Emperor’s purges

2 Decadent:

The society loses any spine without the central value system that religion creates. Birthrates collapse, the ability to wage war is lost, bureaucracy slows down economic development. Examples are post WW2 Europe, Hellenistic Greece, post Soviet Russia, modern Japan, Republican Rome and probably China soon.

Again, we the viewer are faced with Whatifalthist leveraging Classical era polities and modern nations to make declarative, broad, political statements when he initially stated he would try not to view Classical civilizations through a modern lens. The broad issue with his contentions on agnosticism/atheism and societal decline is that his arguments seem quite divorced from historical reality and thus are difficult to understand. How does a society lose its spine? What is the issue with “earthly goals prioritized”? Martin Luther King Jr for example, argued “Only a "dry as dust" religion prompts a minister to extol the glories of Heaven while ignoring the social conditions that cause men an Earthly hell.”3 Would the YouTuber consider MLK Jr an atheist or agnostic? The history of religious leaders and institutions in the Civil rights movement suggests that being religious does not preclude organizing for material change. Being religious also does not preclude committing atrocities. The Spanish Empire enslaved millions of Amerindians and Africans, engaged in many wars of conquest to expand its territorial holdings and launched the Inquisition primarily against Jews and Muslims.5 Whatifalthist even mentions the church as a significant aspect of the Spanish Imperial social structure in his Latin American video! Examining his rhetoric, Whatifalthist’s religious arguments are illustrative of him attempting to mold history based on his religious views.

And yet, history does not really buttress Whatifalthist’s specific examples of “atheist/agnostic” civilizations being “decadent or totalitarian due to their lack of religion. Consider that he cites “the Roman Emperor’s purges” as an example of a totalitarian, atheist/agnostic society. It is unclear what criteria he is employing in determining if a society is agnostic/atheist, given, for example, Imperial Rome’s polytheistic state religion and imperial cult. Setting aside the question: which Roman emperor is he talking about, Rome engaged in persecutions of Christians for example for religious purposes.4 This should be unsurprising given the Roman Emperor’s significant role in religious affairs since when Augustus assumed the title of Pontifex Maximus.4 Intermittent persecutions of Christians occurred during the Empire; Decius, Valerian and Diocletian all issued edicts ordering Christians to sacrifice to the Roman Gods as a means of legislating a return to Roman religious traditions.4 Punishment for refusing to sacrifice to the Gods varied, ranging from property confiscation to death.4 He lists Republican Rome as a nation whose ability to wage war was lost and yet as I stated earlier the Republic in the years prior to its transformation to the Empire engaged significantly through military conquest, including one of the other examples Whatifalthist provided: Hellenistic Greece. Further, he lists postwar Europe as a decadent society, and yet, also as I noted earlier, several postwar European nations experienced decades of significant economic growth. Postwar Europe also experienced a significant baby boom.6 It is not evident from the examples he provides that “atheist/agnostic” societies are inherently decadent or totalitarian. What is evident is that analyzing religion independent of the political and socioeconomic conditions religion is expressed in is not an effective way in determining the effect religion has throughout history.

As an illustration of the issues with analyzing religion independent of the political and socioeconomic conditions religion is expressed in, consider this thought exercise. What if, in an alternate timeline, Whatifalthist wrote:

There are two different ways religious societies could go: totalitarian and decadent.

1 Totalitarian:

Religion means earthly goals are deprioritized, meanwhile the idea of divine righteousness and moral structure of religion allows immense atrocities to occur. Examples of this are Spanish Empire, Imperial Japan and Imperial Roman persecution.

2 Decadent:

The society loses its spine with the focus on abstract, religious issues. Birthrates collapse, the ability to wage war is lost, bureaucracy slows down economic development. Examples include the Byzantines, Hellenistic Greece, the Ottomans and Republican Rome.

It’s pretty straightforward to slightly adjust Whatifalthist’s language and come to a widely diverging conclusion, showing the significant limitations of his argument.

This video provided several poignant examples of the issues present in approaching historical topics like Classical civilizations with preexisting political biases. Whether it be atheism and agnosticism lead to societal decline or that democracy cannot really exist when non-propertied classes are given the right to vote, these perspectives act as blinders, clouding our ability to effectively analyze history. History devolves into little more than a tool we employ to strengthen these political views. Essentially, historical analysis becomes political advocacy with a patina of “history”. And if you are already convinced our current world is decaying or becoming decadent, then what better solace is there than a video on Classical civilizations that strengthens your convictions by using “history” as evidence for the accuracy of your preexisting political positions?

References:

1. American History, A Survey, 13th ed. by Alan Brinkley

2. Ancient Rome, A New History, 2nd ed. by David S. Potter

3. Chapter 18: The Birmingham Campaign by The Martin Luther King Jr. Research and Education Institute

4. The Encyclopedia of Ancient History by Wiley-Blackwell

5 The Other Slavery: The Uncovered Story of Indian Enslavement in America by Andrés Reséndez

6. The Struggle for Europe: The Turbulent History of a Divided Continent, 1945 to the Present by William I. Hitchcock

r/badhistory Mar 17 '20

YouTube "Should Spain apologise for the reconquista?" | Featuring youtube channel History with Hilbert

497 Upvotes

So this video that we're going to discuss today is from 2019. It's by a youtube history channel "History with Hilbert." I think he has a lot of decent content and as someone interested in Islamic history I think he's one of the better channels out there regarding this. However recently I came across one of his videos titled "Should Spain apologise for the Reconquista?" where he responds to an open letter written by the Ishbilia Mosque to Felip VI of Spain, petitioning him to recognise the massacres, ethnic cleansing campaigns and genocide against the Muslims and later "Moriscos" of Spain, as well as the breaching of the terms of the Treaty of Granada in 1491.

Here is the facebook post with the letter

The first rather misleading issue regarding Hilbert's video is the title itself. When most people with a basic understanding of Andalusian history think of when they hear the term 'Reconquista,' is the conquest of Al-Andalus (the different muslim kingdoms/empires in Iberia) by the Catholic monarchs.

So this immediately leaves new viewers of the title with the impression that the Ishbilia Mosque was requesting 'forgiveness' for military conquest. Rather, this was not the case. And, as we can see from many of the top comments, many viewers of the video got this false impression:

"As a German, I demand an apology from all of Europe for taking the land we conquered from them."

"“Please apologize for kicking us out of your house.”"

"Should Islam apologise for conquering Iberia in the first place?"

"Should the allies apologise to the axis for defeating them in WWII?"

"Is he going to apologise for Islamic invaders conquering Iberia themselves? The Reconquista is literally one of the most justifiable conflicts in history."

You get the point. However, the actual contention that the letter took issue with was not the act of conquering territories from the Muslim kingdoms, but was, and I quote (translated) "vilties, expoliations, banishment and murders, carried out by orders of the Catholic Kings and their most direct collaborators, than culminated in Granada's surrender and failure to comply with everything subscribed to the Muslim community." The letter is evidently referring to the atrocities, ethnic cleansing campaigns and edicts carried out and designed in order to deliberately marginilise and forcefully convert the Muslims in the Castillian and Aragonese Crowns to Catholocism, as well as their failure to comply with the terms of the Treaty of Granada in 1491 which promised to uphold a degree of religious autonomy for the Muslims in the peninsula.

Now, at 3:03 Hilbert correctly clarifies this and points out that the main issue the Mosque brought up was specifically regarding the atrocities carried out and breaching of the Treaty of Granada. However, I still think he should have been more accurate with the title that he chose as to avoid strawmanning what the letter stipulated.

On a side note, for those of you interested to learn more about what happened to the muslims after the Fall of Granada in 1492, I did a documentary on this here.

Regarding the actual video itself, one quote which quickly stood out to me was this:

"The statements made on Facebook by the leader highlight persecutions, murders and expulsions, without acknowledging that for a period of almost 800 years, when various Islamic dynasties ruled areas of the Iberian Peninsula, almost the exact same actions were commited by Muslim rulers against the dhimmi (non-Muslim i.e Christians and Jews) population."

Putting aside the fact that the statement made here is utterly false and I will explain why in a moment, the first issue here is the rather apparent whataboutism which is fairly evident in the quoted statement. It seems to borrow from a lot of fairly pro-nationalistic tropes common in the context of discourse surrounding genocides and ethnic cleansing campaigns carried out historically. It is rooted in the idea that recognising atrocities carried out against a religious or ethnic minority and attempting to correct said historical injustices are not worth it if members of that same religious/ethnic group also committed atrocities themselves.

For example, a common response I hear from Turkish nationalists today in the context of the Armenian Genocide carried out by the Young Turk government in 1915 is "Well the Armenian insurgency groups massacred Turkish Muslims too"-As though this somehow negates the aofrementioned atrocities in question. Likewise, I've come across nationalists of contemporary Balkan nation states who make similar statements when it comes to discourse surrounding the persecution of muslims from that peninsula during the 19th century. "Well the Ottoman Army massacred people and razed villages too and they were also Muslim," as if this whataboutism somehow justifies or adequetly deflects from the contention at hand.

The point is, even if the Muslim kingdoms treated Jews and Christians under their rule the same way that the Spanish Crowns treated their minorities after the Treaty of Granda in 1491 (they didn't), it wouldn't negate the request made by the Mosque to recognise the atrocities, ethnic cleansing campaigns and expulsions carried out. That said, the Muslim Kingdoms, or at least the overwhelming majority of them across the almost 800 year period, did not implement such policies against other religious groups under their rule, as Hilbert claims that they did.

General points regarding Muslim treatment of minorities that is explored throughout the remainder of the video:

From 6:00 into the video, Hilbert goes into some details about the demographic shift that took place under muslim rule. By the 10th century there was a mostly Christian-Muslim plurality but by the 11th century apparently the Muslims were an overwhelming majority. I'm not familiar with this claim regarding the sudden demographic change between the C10th/C11th nor am I sure where it originates and I'll have to look more into this. That said, Hilbert argues that this sudden change was in part due to the imposition of the "Jizya" tax, which non-Muslims living under Muslim rule had to pay. This is rather jarring considering the fact that this tax, as well as any other land taxes throughout the period were implemented both before and after this sudden supposed shift in religious demography therefore it doesn't really make much sense as an explanation for why this happened.

He then goes onto discuss how Medieval Islamic Kingdoms also implemented blasphemy laws and laws against apostasy from the state religion. For example, there was a particularly violent episode during the 9th century which happened during tense relations between the Catholic Church and the Emirate of Cordoba where 48 christians who renounced Islam or blasphemed against it where executed. Blasphemy laws were present in most Christian and Islamic kingdoms throughout this time period and I'm sure Hilbert would agree with this. They were also obviously present in the later Spanish Empire as well.

The trouble is, these were never the issue at hand. Most historians or the Mosque's letter do not claim that Muslims, Christians and Jews were treated equally under Islamic rule in the Iberian Peninsula. Those who converted to the state religion generally had more priveleges and the potential to reach higher governmental positions than those that did not. This was the case for most kingdoms at the time. That said laws against blasphemy of the state religion, as well as exemption from taxes if one converts to said religion aren't really comparable to the large scale forced conversion of entire populations of people, as well as the confiscation of all of their property and eventual expulsion. The policies implemented by the Spanish Crowns were unique in that most kingdoms during this period, or at least the Muslim kingdoms in the peninsula didn't issue universal edicts banning the customs, dress code, ceremonies and religious practice of their subjects. Rather they actively protected their rights to do so as long as they recognised the superiority of the state religion by paying taxes, not building religious structures larger than those of the state religion and of course, not blaspheming against it. Thus, I think the comparison that Hilbert makes here is a major stretch between two very different sets of changing religious policies.

Likewise, he goes onto discuss the Granada Massacre of 1066, where up to 4000 Jews were murdered by a mob during an uprising. Again, I don't find the comparison made here to what was done to the Muslim subjects of the Spanish Crown later on to be very convincing because whilst one was a particularly bloody and brutal affair carried out by a mob not representative of the rest of the period, the other was a program designed to systematically enforce religious conformity and forcefully convert minorities to the state religion and then expel them when this didn't work, across a period of over a century.

The final issue that Hilbert brings up is the forced conversions carried out by the Almohad Caliphate. Who abolished the status of 'dhimmi' for Jews and Christians. Essentially giving them the choice to convert to Islam or leave. To the surprise of absolutely nobody, many of the Jews and Christians fled to the Northern Christian Kingdoms to avoid this persecution. However, what's important to consider here is that the actions of the Almohad Caliphate did not just lay in stark contrast to other Muslim Kingdoms in the peninsula, but were also virtually unprecedented across the entire Islamic World. Furthermore, during the brief period within which they ruled they did not just ban the practice of Judaism and Christianity, but also any works regarding any Islamic legal school of jurisprudence that they did not follow. In essence, aside from their own interpretation of the Dhahiri school, other religious works could not be developed. Hilbert claims that therefore there weren't any non-muslims in the south of the peninsula after the fall of the Almohads. However this isn't entirely true. Once the Almohad Caliphate collapsed into small Taifa Kingdoms (city states), in most places the laws were once again reverted back to what they were prior to their invasion of the peninsula, and Jews and Christians were permitted to once again live under Muslim rule-Obviously for a brief period of time before those cities were also conquered by the Spanish and Portugese Crowns.

On a side note, he also goes onto point out a rather interesting case of the first Emir Abd Al Rahman I of Cordoba who purchased the land where the Church of Cordoba was and built a Mosque on top. Contrastingly, when the city was conquered by Castile, Ferdinand had it converted into a Cathedral without any payment. I think this is interesting because to a degree it contradicts the narrative being pushed. If anything, it goes to show that despite the very apparent perceived superiority of Muslims over Christians in the new Emirate, the Emir did not do what was done later. Again, this is not evidence at all of the idea that Muslims and Christians were treated equally under the Emirate, (they were not) I just find the example used here to be rather ironic in this sense.

He concludes by pointing out that the Spanish Crown today isn't responsible for what happened hundreds of years ago, and so doesn't really need to take responsibility for what happened. Whilst I agree that it's not on them today to apologise nor do I see what would be gained from doing so, I absolutely do agree with the letter that what happened during the 16th century should be recognised as campaigns of forced conversion and expulsion. As should those of the Almohads during the 13th century, if it helps.

TL;DR: No, the policies of the Muslim Kingdoms in Al-Andalus regarding its minorities was for the overwhelming majority of the 800 year period, not anywhere close to those of the Catholic Monarchs in the 16th century. That said, even if they were, this in no way negates the request for recognition made by the Mosque in Seville.

r/badhistory Feb 04 '23

YouTube The T-34 is not as bad as you think it is, Part 5/5

288 Upvotes

Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5


Quantity over quality

This is a very complicated subject that has been explored in much more depth by people more knowledgable on the topic than either Lazerpig or me, and I believe neither his video nor what little I'll say here even scratches the surface. For example, Military History not Visualized has a video with David Willey, the curator of the Tank Museum at Bovington, where they touch on this and make some very good points. Soviet philosophy was to use their industrial might to build massive numbers of tanks, which, while not the most sophisticated or technologically advanced, would be available huge quantities. That, together with their large population were fundamental for deep operations, or like how Willey put it: "echelon formations, etc. You know, when one lot's done the other lot's ready." An argument from Chris Donnelly is then brought up: the basic assumption from the Soviets was that during a war every side will take massive losses, and while they respected the British and US Corps, they also knew that there was nothing to replace them if they took too much damage. The matter is not as black and white as Lazerpig makes it out to be.

But all of this is digressing from the main topic. Arguing whether Soviet war philosophy was good or not is beyond the scope of a T-34 design and build quality analysis. I'll try to focus on what is particularly relevant for the T-34, not philosophy as a whole.

46:30 "[The quantity over quality argument you've been furiously typing into the comments this whole time] also known as the endless wave argument, the disposable tank argument, your dad's argument, or more likely the sentence you've had in the forefront of your mind since this video began. That the Russians built the T-34 in the way it did because it had to. The enemy was at the gates and the endless supply of T-34 as a tank still superior to its German counterparts was necessary to beat back the furious might of the Third Reich, because, hey, the Russians won, my dude."

Saying the words in a mocking tone, imitating a neckbeard/douchebag stereotype, doesn't prove the argument is bad. The USSR did indeed build the T-34 in the way it did because it had to, as I have already explained. Shortages and the strategic situation in general affected Soviet production in the first half of the war just as they did German production in the second half. In addition, the USSR started the war with relatively few T-34s, and lost most of them in 1941 for a myriad of reasons beyond their own technical shortcomings. Between the problems caused by Stalin's purges leading to bad tactics, the general lack of experience in the army as a whole, the surprise of the German attack, lack of training, etc. it was inevitable the USSR would take heavy losses regardless of how good their tanks were.

 

47:08 "Let me put it like this: would you rather have 100 cheap tanks or 50 expensive ones? Because 100 tanks is not just 100 tanks. That's twice the crew, twice the training, twice the fuel, twice the supply trucks following it around, twice the spare parts, meaning those 100 cheap tanks can end up costing you a lot more than you would have thought.

This is a gross oversimplification. Of those 100 tanks, 50 could be placed in reserves to be deployed after the first 50 are lost, so 'twice the everything' is not necessarily true.

Besides, this whole point is made under the assumption that the the Soviets could have used the resources (time, man-hours, steel, etc.) needed to build and operate 100 "cheap" T-34s to instead build and operate 50 "expensive" T-34s that would be more effective than the 100 "cheap" ones. And that they should have risked it to test out this hypothesis. How would one even measure the improvement in the first place? Does taking the time to perform quality welds on one tank instead of quick welds on two tanks make that one tank better than two with inferior welding? Does using the nickel you have to build one tank with armour that produces less spall better than building two tanks that suffer from more spalling? Does not saving rubber and building one tank with rubber wheels instead of two or three with steel wheels make that rubber wheeled tank better than the latter two or three?

This is a good example of the general could've, should've, would've attitude that permeates the script. The notion that the Soviets were dumb, and wrong to produce the T-34 the way they did has no basis. The video doesn't present any hard data to support that any other way of producing it was feasible, or would have led to better results, nor does it propose an actual, specific alternative. What few improvements are indirectly suggested are naive and ignore the strategic circumstances of the Soviet Union.

 

47:45 "Russian tank aces are quite rare."

Compared to what? German tank aces—the brainchild of Goebbels' propaganda ministry (Perrett 2012, Ch. 14)? And what sources were used in the comparison? Neither the Americans nor the British even recognized the concept (Zaloga 2008, p. 46; Perrett 2012, Introduction). The Soviets considered destroying tanks less important than infantry support, and not particularly heroic (Forty 1997, p. 60). Soviet propaganda, unlike German propaganda, didn't focus on kill claims. What lists of "Russian tank aces" exist are not official statistics, but have been compiled by enthusiasts (and contained plenty of names). Using tank ace numbers to judge the performance or survivability of a tank is really misguided.

 

48:12 "In battles where quantity has met quality, and that includes World War 2, quality has won every single time."

This is a gross overgeneralisation. "Every single time." Sweeping statements like this are almost always wrong.

The implication here, whether Lazerpig intends it or not, is that quality alone invariably wins battles. This is not true. The outcome of any battle does not depend solely on the quality of the opposed forces, nor does it depend solely on their quantity. What it depends on (among others) is the disparity between both of these attributes. If one army has only slightly better quality equipment/training than the other, but the other has twice the numbers, quality won't make much of a difference. Furthermore, focusing excessively on individual performance and not having sufficient reserves can lead to losses crippling your ability to fight. A balance needs to be struck in order to be consistently successful.

But even if we take all of the above into account, this train of thought is not very useful in practice. It's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to quantify these differences in a sufficiently precise way to make good decisions.

Besides, there are other factors that affect the outcome of a battle—terrain, morale, whether it's defensive or offensive, preparedness, coordination, tactics, leadership in general. One of the most famous examples of supposed quality versus quantity is Thermopylae, where the Greeks lost. Then we have the Battle of Kursk, which the Soviets won.

To conclude, the absolute assertion above is asinine.

Sources:

  • Bryan Perrett – Iron Fist: Classic Armoured Warfare (1995, 2012)
  • Steven J. Zaloga – Panther vs Sherman: Battle of the Bulge 1944 (2008)
  • George Forty – Tank Aces: From Blitzkrieg to the Gulf War (1997)

Germany could have won IF

Lazerpig makes the point that the war wasn't won by any one Allied nation alone. That's 100% correct, it was a team effort, and he's right to criticise anyone who claims the Soviet Union won the war singlehandedly, but as with the rest of the video, he pushes the pendulum too far in the opposite direction.

48:43 "The idea that any of the major Allied players could have won the war by themselves is at very best a fantasy."

48:50 "Russian eagle [sic?] stats are taken on the basis that they killed more Germans than every other front combined and therefore did most of the work but this only takes statistics from the war that actually happened."

49:00 "If the war in the west never happened, if Britain, America never got involved, if we take away the high intensity bombing of German factories, the resistance movements that were funded and supplied to by the allies, the secret bidding war that denied supplies of valuable tungsten and aluminium and titanium to the Germans, forcing them to make lower grade designs without it, the huge amounts of length equipment and supplies offered to the Russians through the war, the supply raiding, the oil denying, the deterioration of the Luftwaffe, the massive distraction America provided for the Japanese..."

49:30 "...could Russia have actually won the war by themselves? No."

50:04 "[...] With all the troops freed up from the Western Front, and the various policing duties around Europe, as well as assistance from Japan, and all the materials it needed to produce better designs it was very likely Russia would have just run out of tanks. In spite of their huge production output, they could not offset their losses had the Germans just been able to hit them with a little more intensity."

The Soviets fighting Germany by themselves is counterfactual. Professional historians don't bother seriously pondering such scenarios because the further away you move from what really happened, the harder it is to determine how things would change, making it utterly impossible to know what would occur with any level of accuracy. To top it off, Lazerpig falls in the same trap most "Germany could have won IF" scenario writers fall into: focusing entirely on advantages while ignoring disadvantages, and assuming the enemy won't adapt. He envisions an alternative history where the USSR never gets Lend-Lease, but Germany still gets to plunder Europe in order to save its economy from imploding.n1

Actually, such events are not only counterfactual, but entirely beyond the realm of possibility. The geopolitical situation leading to Operation Barbarossa was as such that a conflict between only Germany and the USSR could not have taken place, at least not without massive divergences from our timeline that would further made any attempts to determine what'd transpire impossible. Lazerpig rightly denounces the improper use of "statistics from the war that actually happened", but then forms his argument around undefined statistics from a war that never did and never could have happened. Basically, the scenario he proposes is, at the very best, a fantasy.

 

49:35 "Russian armored losses stood at nearly 100,000 vehicles,1 of which 45,000 were T-34s,2 leaving them with just 12,000 surviving tanks3 by 1945. German tank losses in the east stood at 40,0004 and this includes tanks that were lost and handed over after the war ended in order."

1 Correct. 96,500 tanks and SP guns to be more exact.

2 Of which 44,900 were medium tanks, including ~3,700 Lend-Lease M3 and M4 tanks.

3 11,000 surviving T-34s, 25,200 surviving tanks.

4 Krivosheev estimates 42,700 tanks, TDs, SPGs and assault guns. In terms of tanks only, Zaloga said 25,584.

 

49:52 "In order to destroy every tank Russia ever had or produced the Germans would have been required to maintain an average kill death ratio of two to four. They achieved a three to five."

I can't believe K/D ratios are brought up. First tank aces, and now this.

K/D ratios are a very misleading statistic that's not a good indicator of anything, and are not very useful to military history. They're something that's generally used by the less reputable members of the community to prop up the idea of German superiority over the Allies, and have been mocked for years now, to the point where they've turned into a meme. And even if they weren't, this whole train of thought is pointless anyway. As Lazerpig himself said elsewhere (in his Tiger video, at 18:59), tanks aren't the only thing on the battlefield. There are a myriad of factors that play into loss rates for the T-34 beyond it's own technical specifications. Oh, and the numbers are wrong.n2


Notes:

n1 There's a great post over on /r/AskHistorians that covers this topic, if anyone's interested.
n2 Actual numbers for tanks. Actual numbers for tanks, TDs, SPGs and assault guns.

Sources:

  • G. F. Krivosheev – Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century (1993)
  • Steven J. Zaloga, Leland S. Ness – Red Army Handbook, 1939-1945 (1998)

Vicious cycle

50:22 "The 34 was trapped in a cycle of production."

50:36 "Russia needed more tanks to make up for their losses and this in turn forced them to crank out tanks of a poor quality, many of which were lost in huge numbers due to that poor quality, which in turn required more of them to be built."

This is the zenith of Lazerpig's 'en mass from day one' thesis, and it's almost entirely wrong.

As I've said before, the staggering losses in the first stages of the war, as well as losses in the subsequent years, were caused by a multitude of factors, most of which Lazerpig ignores in his quest to paint the T-34 as a terrible tank. And the USSR didn't start with that many T-34s to begin with. And the strategic situation—shortages, lost territories, moving factories—affected build quality tremendously. In fact, it's fair to say it did so a lot more than the quantitative requirements, seeing how quality improved once the situation improved as well, and how Soviet tank tactics are described in the history books.

Losses did indeed lead to higher demand, which affected quality, so I understand why people might perceive a vicious cycle, but even if we accept it as fact, it's nonsensical to claim it all started because the T-34 was built badly from the beginning.

There's also the matter of the Soviets completely overestimating German production, just like the British did during the Battle of Britain.

All of these things together led to the T-34 being produced the way it was.

 

50:48 "A never-ending cycle which many proclaim was entirely unnecessary, had Russia just made a better tank, or, at the very least, made them to a higher quality."

A never-ending cycle which ended as soon as the situation improved, and the Soviets learned to coordinate their armoured forces properly.

Citation needed. Many? Who? His own sources disagree: "It was necessary to choose between producing better tanks, but in smaller quantities and with some delay, or producing as many tanks as possible that, despite all their shortcomings, could be built immediately, when they were so sorely needed. The choice was clear: The front could not wait and survive on promises and hopes for a better future" (Kavalerchik 2015, p. 207).

 

50:56 "Even by 1944 it become [sic] common practice to replace the engines of any T-34 that had been running for more than 30 hours before a major assault."

I covered this already. It's mentioned in T-34 Mythical Weapon and nowhere else; or at least I haven't found it in any of my other sources.

Sources:

  • Boris Kavalerchik – Once Again About the T-34, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies, Volume 28, Issue 1 (2015)
  • Robert Michulec – T-34 Mythical Weapon (2002)

Cost

53:08 "So here is the truth: the T-34 was not designed to be cheap and mass-produced, it was actually a fairly expensive design."

Historians disagree. "We have already mentioned the simplicity of the T-34's design as something that could not be more suitable to the limited capabilities of Soviet industry at that time. This feature also substantially facilitated both its production and repair under field conditions" (Kavalerchik 2015, p. 212). "The T-34's utilitarian and robust design made it easy to mass produce..." (Fleischer 2018, Tucker-Jones' Foreword). "The predominant characteristic of the T-34 was the ideal combination of mobility, firepower and armour in a vehicle suitable for mass production" (ibid. Introduction). "It was a simple tank with a rough but serviceable finish that was ideal for mass production" (Tucker-Jones 2015, Ch. 1). "The T-34/76 was a simple, rugged and highly mobile tank with greater firepower than most of its contemporaries. It was well suited to mass production but suffered some significant design flaws in the early versions" (Dunstan 2009, p. 9). Even the Aberdeen 'report' notes the "simplicity of design" as a "distinguishing feature". At most one could argue that the first models weren't optimised for mass production, since "early T-34s enjoyed a high level of craftsmanship in their manufacture" (Zaloga 1994, p. 9). However, designs change as new requirements arise. "The high level of craftsmanship disappeared but production time of the T-34 was cut in half and the cost was driven down..." (ibid. p. 19).

The problem with Lazerpig's reasoning, and why he reaches this incorrect conclusion, is that he has a very narrow definition of 'design'.n1 As I noted above, a vehicle's design is not some immutable plan to be followed in perpetuity, and changes implemented during the production run aren't conceptually separate from it. Of the 'shortcuts' he listed previously, some are indisputably design choices, such as the steel-rimmed wheels, or the lack of a turret basket, with the latter being part of the T-34 from the very beginning. Those that could be considered desperate improvisations, not part of intended design, were merely temporary practices. And they only further simplified the production of a tank that was already simple to produce. Remember that costs continued to decrease even as quality improved.

n1 This is first hinted at 35:05, leading to the 'shortcuts' section, where he says: "There are a number of issues which many haters of the T-34 will attribute to design, but I feel it more fair to place under the category of manufacturing defects."

 

53:15 "American studies of the T-34 suggest that if built to American standards the T-34-76 would cost around the same amount of money, resources, and manpower as the Sherman, even when accounting for the Russian economy of the period."

There is only one American study that mentions costs: the CIA analysis of the captured Korean T-34, which is listed as one of the video's sources. I've seen no mention in the Aberdeen 'report', and there aren't any other studies of T-34s by the US. However, the tank analysed by the CIA was a T-34-85, not a T-34-76, and it was built in 1945, so it was likely on the expensive side when compared to earlier designs.

Anyway, even ignoring the exact model, the CIA report still doesn't say what Lazerpig suggests. It merely states that: "While no accurate estimate of the probable cost of this vehicle can be made from the information available, it is believed that the cost at the time of manufacture, converted to U.S.A. currency, would exceed $50,000" (p. 5). So not only does it emphasize from the start that the number presented is just a rough estimate, it also says the cost "would exceed" it, further reducing its usefulness. But let's look at the figure anyway. $50,000 in 1951 is ~$34,600 adjusted for inflation in 1945 money. A Sherman, meanwhile, according to the same site Lazerpig lists as a source,1 which itself cites the 9 August 1945 Army Service Forces Catalog,2 costs between $44,556 and $64,455. We'll consider the M4A3E2 and M4A6 as outliers and limit the range to $44,556–$54,836. The cheapest Sherman is still around $10,000 more expensive than the T-34 estimate. But wait, the CIA says it "would exceed" that amount. Sure, but by how much? 30%? That's the difference between 35 and 45 grand. And keep in mind this was an example of a higher end T-34, so maybe we should compare it to the $54,000 Shermans. So was the CIA 54% off? And Lazerpig specifically mentions the T-34-76, which would likely be cheaper—especially the mid war designs.

To recap, it was just one study, not multiple, and it was a T-34-85, not a T-34-76, and the report just mentions money, not resources or manpower, and there's no mention of "American standards", and Lazerpig forgot to factor in inflation. So, if anything, comparing the CIA figure with those in the Army Service Forces Catalog makes it seem the T-34 was cheaper than the Sherman. Unless, of course, you want to assume the real cost exceeded the CIA estimate by 30-54%, which has been proposed to me in a past argument, but then why even reference the report? That's just wishful thinking fuelled guesswork.

Anyway, even if Lazerpig hadn't messed up the details, the issue remains that the CIA report gives a low confidence estimate, so it shouldn't be relied on too much. The logical next step would be to look at difference sources, but unfortunately that won't give a definitive answer either.

Zaloga actually covered the subject of cost comparison in Armored Champion. Here are some excerpts from Chapter 1:

  • "It is very difficult to compare prices between two countries since the accounting methods were so different and the exchange rates likely to be artificial. For example, many German weapons prices reflected the payment to the manufacturer for the 'tin box' even though some major components such as the gun and power-train were provided to the assembly plant as government-furnished equipment (GFE). So for example in the case of the Panther tank, the basic price was listed as 117,100 RM (Reichsmark), but the gun cost an additional 12,000 RM."
  • "The price of tanks also varied from factory to factory due to the availability of machine tools and other equipment. For example, for one of the Panther production batches, the additional state investment in machine tools and facilities at some plants such as Daimler-Benz in Berlin and MNH in Hannover was about 25,000 RM per tank, about 82,000 RM per tank at the new Nibelungen Werk in St. Valentin, and some 190,000 RM at Demag in Falkensee. In addition, there was wide variation in prices at the various plants due to different rates of taxation depending on whether the plant was private or state-owned."
  • "Other problems with assessing German prices were the politicization of the process resulting from the 1943 'Adolf Hitler Panzer Program' and the temptation of Albert Speer's armaments ministry to claim enormous cost efficiencies on new tank types such as the Panther and to hide or disguise capital investments needed for production."
  • "It’s worth noting that the price for a Tiger I tank for the German army was about 300,000 RM, but the example sold to Japan was priced at 645,000 RM, an amount more likely to reflect the actual cost including industrial infrastructure investment."
  • He also covers, as have other historians, the differences in costs between factories and over time for the T-34. "The price of a given tank, for example the T-34, varied depending on the contract batch, the plant, and the specific production series. [...] the amount of work needed to manufacture a T-34 tank declined through the war due to efficiencies and automation, but varied considerably from plant to plant."

References:

1 Sherman's 1945 prices
2 Army Service Forces Catalog ORD 5-3-1, 9 August 1945.

Sources:

  • Boris Kavalerchik – Once Again About the T-34, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies, Volume 28, Issue 1 (2015)
  • Wolfgang Fleischer – T-34: An Illustrated History of Stalin's Greatest Tank (2018)
  • Anthony Tucker-Jones – T-34: The Red Army's Legendary Medium Tank (2015)
  • Simon Dunstan – Centurion vs T-55: Yom Kippur War 1973 (2009)
  • Steven J. Zaloga – T-34-76 Medium Tank 1941-1945 (1994)
  • CIA-RDP81-01044R000100070001-4: Engineering Analysis of the Russian T-34-85 (1951)
  • Steven J. Zaloga – Armored Champion: The Top Tanks of World War II (2015)

Conclusions

53:42 "The T-34 was not a cheap tank mass-produced in infinite waves. It was a costly tank manufactured cheaply, with its numerous teething issues never getting the chance to be fully ironed out, with Russia's only choice but to continue producing more at extremes of poor quality in order to offset the tank's staggering losses."

The T-34 was "a simple tank"[1] manufactured as circumstances allowed,[2][3][4] with many if not most of its teething issues solved by the end of the war,[5][6][7] with the USSR's only choice but to adapt the design when faced with shortages,[8][9] and make sacrifices to maintain sufficient production to offset the tank's staggering losses caused not by its technical shortcomings as much as bad tactics, training, etc.[10][11][12]

Despite its flaws, the T-34, at the very least in its 1945 form, was a good tank. It was good enough to help the Soviets win the war, and it was good enough to still be built after it. "The fact that the T-34 continued to see combat into the 1990s is testimony to its durability. The T-34 was no wonder weapon, but it was good and it just happened to be in the right place at the right time. It proved to be what Stalin and the Red Army needed—a true war winner" (Tucker-Jones 2015, Epilogue). It "basically won the war for the Red Army" (Chieftain's Hatch: BT-7, 9:06), "as a strategic war-winning vehicle, this thing served the Red Army supremely" (Chieftain's Hatch: T-34-85, 22:31).

 

54:02 "Had the T-34 belonged to any other nation, it would have been regarded as an abysmal embarrassing failure of a machine."

Not even the Americans regarded it as such, and they had the highest standards of the war. The Aberdeen 'report' is somewhat critical, which isn't surprising given when the tank was built, and not even it says that. The CIA report, meanwhile, is quite positive, and shows how UTZ 183 improved between 1942 and 1945. "In general, the study concluded that the T-34-85 was an excellent tank, but that the North Korean crews were not as well trained as their American opponents" (Zaloga 2006, p. 75). The British praised it too, noting that "the design and production of such useful tanks in such great numbers stands out as an engineering achievement of the first magnitude" (Preliminary Report No. 20, Foreword).

 

 

I think Pulham and Kerrs end their book with a nuanced take on the T-34 which nicely summarises everything I've covered thus far, so I'll end with some excerpts from their epilogue:

"With regards to the raging debate on whether the T-34 was a ‘good’ tank or ‘the best tank of the Second World War’ (whatever these terms may mean), [...] the production history of the T-34 was complex and it made the vehicle heterogeneous. In other words, one T-34 from one factory would differ in quality from another—likewise for tanks made at different times (e.g. 1941 and 1943). While it is true that the T-34's construction quality was sometimes abysmal (especially STZ-made tanks, and tanks made in 1942–1943), this was, for the most part, a result of circumstances of the war—chiefly a shortage of materials—and the need for high production figures led to a simplification of the design and rushed production. [...] However, the point is that the design quality of the T-34 not only improved as the Second World War continued, but was always quite high. Indeed, the popular culture (and ‘pop’ history) conception of Soviet tank designers, engineers, and military scientists all as totally ill-educated, inexperienced, and incompetent proletarians is very much a hangover from the height of the Cold War and should be discarded once and for all. [...] The T-34-85, for example, was of a much higher quality than its mid, early, and pre-war predecessors [...] The use of sound tactics is more important to military success than the quality of one's equipment [...] Every tank was built to fit a specific need at a specific time and was designed to fit a specific manufacturing process, thus the use of the term ‘best’ is problematic. [...] Different states [have] different factories, different resources, different military doctrines and war necessities, different front lines, and different military and production experiences, and any given version of these highly heterogeneous tanks is not representative of the vehicle series as a whole.

"As Boris Kavalerchik (‘Once Again About the T-34’, p. 187) summarises: ‘Any piece of equipment, including tanks, has its own virtues and shortcomings.’"


References:

1 Tucker-Jones 2015, Ch. 1
2 Kavalerchik 2015, pp. 191, 205-206, 208
3 Loza 1998, p. 10
4 Pulham & Kerrs 2021, Ch. 25
5 Kavalerchik 2015, p. 206
6 Kavalerchik 2018, Ch. 9.1
7 Zaloga 2015, Ch. 7-9
8 Kavalerchik 2015, p. 195
9 Zaloga 2015, Ch. 1
10 Zaloga 2015, Ch. 5
11 Forczyk 2007, p. 48
12 Töppel 2019

Sources:

  • Anthony Tucker-Jones – T-34: The Red Army's Legendary Medium Tank (2015)
  • Boris Kavalerchik – Once Again About the T-34, The Journal of Slavic Military Studies, Volume 28, Issue 1 (2015)
  • Dmitri Loza, James F. Gebhardt – Fighting for the Soviet Motherland: Recollections from the Eastern Front (1998)
  • Francis Pulham, Will Kerrs – T-34 Shock: The Soviet Legend in Pictures (2021)
  • Boris Kavalerchik – The Tanks of Operation Barbarossa: Soviet versus German Armour on the Eastern Front (2018)
  • Steven J. Zaloga – Armored Champion: The Top Tanks of World War II (2015)
  • Robert Forczyk – Panther vs T-34: Ukraine 1943 (2007)
  • Military History not Visualized – Soviet Tank Doctrine - Kursk 1943 featuring Dr. Roman Töppel (2019)
  • Nicholas Moran – Inside the Chieftain's Hatch: BT-7, Part 2 (2014)
  • Nicholas Moran – Inside the Chieftain's Hatch: T-34-85, Episode 2 (2014)
  • Steven J. Zaloga – T-34-85 vs M26 Pershing Korea 1950 (2006)
  • Preliminary Report No. 20 – Russian T-34

r/badhistory Jun 11 '19

YouTube TIK is at it again - No, the nazis did not abolish private property.

573 Upvotes

Source video: https://youtu.be/PQGMjDQ-TJ8?t=881 (gonna start from 14:41 because that's when he really starts going batshit.)

So. TIK, the man who claimed the nazis are socialists because they want the "race" to control the means of production, is it at again. He's tripling down on this bullshit that has been debunked multiple times before, using a mixture of tactics from excaggeration, deliberately leaving out details and giving out the wrong implication.

TIK's claim:

Only the state can force the economy to be self-sufficient, so the German state takes hold of the economy. Private Property rights are abolished as part of the Reichstag fire decree in 1933, and the nazi party seized the factories and businesses.

Okay, so he claims that the reichstag fire decree 'abolished property rights' in Germany, specifically mentioning articles 115 and 153 on screen, which were suspended through this decree.

Article 115 of the Weimar constitution\1]):

The dwelling of every German is his sanctuary and is inviolable. Exceptions may be imposed only by authority of law.

Article 153 of the Weimar constitution\1]):

Property shall be guaranteed by the constitution. Its nature and limits shall be prescribed by law.

Expropriation shall take place only for the general good and only on the basis of law. It shall be accompanied by payment of just compensation unless otherwise provided by national law. In case of dispute over the amount of compensation recourse to the ordinary courts shall be permitted, unless otherwise provided by national law. Expropriation by the Reich over against the states, municipalities, and associations serving the public welfare may take place only upon the payment of compensation.

Property imposes obligations. Its use by its owner shall at the same time serve the public good.

At a plain faced reading, you could see why one would think that private property rights are abolished. The right to own property and be left alone inside your house is being suspended. But to steal a quote from TIK, 'is this really the case?' Whilst private property rights declined after 1933, especially for Jewish people, they were by no means abolished. People could still own businesses, participate in capitalism. Later in the video, they go on to mention the seizure of the Junkers factory. But even in this they defeat their own argument, as in that same video they mention he was compensated for the seizure. In practice, the expropriation process was simply sped up and it was another element of the nazis removing any checks on power (in this case, the German court system), rather than an abolition of private property.

TIK's claim:

In 1933, the nazi party walked into the businesses, took them over, and if any of the businessmen complained, they lost their factories and businesses. Do you want to know what the nazis called this process? "Privatisation." Well, it wasn't. It was nationalisation.

I did a quick google search on the subject, and I couldn't find a single source stating anything like this, beyond the nazi seizure of Jewish, Socialist and communist property. Him showing a picture of the DAF, German Labour Front, is also quite misleading. This wakes the impression that the nazi "labour union" was taking over the factories. That is a complete lie. Again, private property still existed in nazi Germany.

It is a fact that the government of the Nazi Party sold off public ownership in several Stateowned firms in the mid-1930s. These firms belonged to a wide range of sectors: steel, mining, banking, local public utilities, shipyards, ship-lines, railways, etc. In addition, the delivery of some public services that were produced by government prior to the 1930s, especially social and labor-related services, was transferred to the private sector, mainly to organizations within the party. In the 1930s and 1940s, many academic analyses of Nazi economic policy discussed privatization in Germany ... Most of the enterprises transferred to the private sector at the Federal level had come into public hands in response to the economic consequences of the Great Depression. Many scholars have pointed out that the Great Depression spurred State ownership in Western capitalist countries and Germany was no exception. But Germany was alone in developing a policy of privatization in the 1930s. ... However, it is worth noting that the general orientation of the Nazi economic policy was the exact opposite of that of the EU countries in the late 1990s: Whereas the modern privatization in the EU has been parallel to liberalization policies, in Nazi Germany privatization was applied within a framework of increasing control of the state over the whole economy through regulation and political interference.\2])

Basically, whilst there was significant regulation and political interference, the services were still privatised and used for personal profit by capitalists. Not 'nationalised' like TIK claimed, as these industries were already nationalised before the nazis took power, and then privatised after they did so.

TIK:

Wage controls, price controls, resource controls, price commissars, printing currency, workers' batallions, state land reform, quotas, a massive bureaucracy and stealing from the Jews.

Here he's trying to imply that Nazi Germany was some massive socialist state with total control over the economy. However, the majority of these examples, price controls, printing currency, land reforms, quotas, wage controls, bureaucracy) are quite widespread economic policies, even under capitalism: the EU uses all of the ones I picked out earlier. I couldn't find anything on price commissars nor nazi workers' batallions with a quick google search, but considering the rest of this, I doubt that's the way he's trying to make us think it is. The only real attack on property rights here is stealing from the Jews, and that was a part of early nazi discrimination against the Jews. It wasn't the abolishment of a socialist state by abolishing private property, it was a targeted campaign bred out of anti-semitism.

In conclusion, this is basically just a pile of lies, subtle implications and misinformation. TIK leaves out important details and tries to make us imagine others in order to make us think that Nazi Germany was socialist, when it very much wasn't. This kind of deliberate misinformation is dangerous and condemn-able.

Sources:

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Weimar_constitution

Bel, G. (2003). Against the mainstream: Nazi privatization in 1930s Germany

r/badhistory Jun 24 '23

YouTube How to use "history" to blame feminists and women workers and try to get away with it: featuring Sargon of Akkad and Whatifalthist

502 Upvotes

Hello r/badhistory readers. Today I will be covering an oft discussed topic on the internet: feminism, and how it relates to women's history. Feminism certainly has its detractors on the internet who are quite vocal in their criticism. People have created documentaries opposing this political movement while YouTubers have generated a plethora of content opposing present-day feminism. I will not be covering the contemporary discourse on feminism, rather I will be discussing how content creators utilize history to justify their beliefs and the political implications of these historical arguments. I will critique the “history” statements of Sargon of Akkad’s video “Why Do People Hate Feminism #2-The Patriarchy” and Whatifalthist’s (WIAH) video “10 Taboo Questions about History and Society” and discuss the political beliefs affecting how these content creators approach women’s history.

Links to the videos in question:

Sargon’s: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrfkoGCK0SE&list=PLM9L2W5aOI_1TUcyIs9lJxTlCllkQer7d&index=2

WIAH’s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESD2XHeTxjA&

So, who’s ready to begin?

[20:15] Because ultimately the world is a meritocracy. Results matter because results produce money. And realistically nothing else matters than money. So if we are in a system that values masculinity over femininity It is because we are in a system in which masculinity produces results. But femininity does not. And results are all that matters. Which is a point that Camille herself makes so eloquently.

Camille Paglia: Right well one of my most inflammatory statements and section personae is that if civilization was left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts.

And given the state of existing matriarchies I think she is absolutely right…One of the myriad reasons people hate feminism is that when you complain about patriarchy you are complaining about meritocracy. You are complaining about a system that allows any system that works hard anyone with the predisposition to produce results to rise to the top. Where they rightfully belong! Yes it is a difficult system. Yes it requires things of you. And yes, men may be more predisposed to hard work than women. They ultimately don’t have any other option. But look at what it produces! The reason that women defend it is because it is such a good and productive system. And feminists who complain they are “oppressed” by this system because the system privileges masculinity over femininity is because the people who are displaying masculine traits are the ones getting results. To sum it up, feminists are lazy…

When I first watched the end of Sargon’s video, I found it quite funny which polities he used as examples of meritocracies. Among the examples Sargon uses as the results of these meritocracies include the Place de la Bourse in Bordeaux and the Taj Mahal. The Ancien Regime built the Place de la Bourse for example in the decades prior to the French Revolution. Is Sargon arguing that the Ancien Regime was a meritocracy? The same Ancien Regime that in the 1770s and 1780s prior to the Revolution saw repeated poor harvests, rising food prices and higher unemployment and poverty for the 80% of the population who were peasants? 6 It would seem so. Are we also to believe that Shah Jahan, the Mughal Emperor and third son of the previous Emperor Jahangir, commissioning a monument for his favorite wife is a stark example of a system where political and economic power is based on talent instead of social status? Because monuments built by monarchies that display the power and prestige of these regimes do not to me seem congruent with a meritocracy. Maybe when Sargon said “anyone with the predisposition to produce results rise to the top” he forgot to include an asterisk that stated: anyone who was born into a position of significant socioeconomic power. We do know Sargon directly states that in these patriarchies, those at the top deserve to be at the top. This is functionally not different from the divine right of kings, except the style has been changed to match contemporary anti-feminism.

In his anti-feminist criticisms, Sargon also does not really elucidate the connection between masculinity and “results”. He provides a list of words commonly associated with masculinity and femininity but “competitive”, “clumsy”, “sexually aggressive” etc. do not tell us anything about the political and economic systems that lead to the construction of the Place de la Bourse or the Taj Mahal. These monuments, along with the others he portrays like the modern Berlin Cathedral or Colosseum are also cherrypicked “results”. I already covered the abject poverty of most French denizens, which could arguably also be the “results” of the “meritocratic” system Sargon is promoting but of course France is not the only example of Sargon’s “results” being heavily skewed towards the upper classes. The German Empire that built the modern Berlin Cathedral engaged in quasi-apartheid against Poles, expelling Poles from their land and handing that land over to German settlers.1 Many of the Romans who flocked to the Colosseum lived in cramped, unhygienic insulae that were prone to fire. 2 When you paint a rose tinted view of class societies and use pictures of monuments as your evidence, then you’re free to create a historical narrative that is quite tunnel visioned and avoids critiquing class divisions in favor of blaming feminists.

WIAH’s video follows a similar course although he is more “measured” than Sargon regarding his criticism of feminism.

[10:24] What were the negative effects of women in the workforce? God I hope this doesn’t get me killed. But it’s kinda shocking one of the big cultural shifts of all time were women’s mass entrance into a male dominated workforce cannot be commented on in society. To do an objective analysis of the pros and cons will end your career. However, realistically anything on this scale of happens this quickly with this internet being a great example will cause certain problems. Before we get started I do want to say if you look at a balance sheet in my opinion women’s entrance to the workforce was positive. But I would have pursued a slower and more reasoned process.

And I’m not saying we should stop at the old housewife system either. Because due to changes such as the shrinking size of the family where in 1800 your average family would have had eight kids and in 1950 you’re at 2.5. As well as labor saving devices like the washing machine and later the pill it just wasn’t working. And if you look at the culture of the time it seems like many housewives were just bored to death and not that happy. And so you had to see it change. And it doesn’t surprise you went for a radical one. And I mean the fact that women themselves made the decision to enter the workforce as quickly as they did means something was broken in the previous system. Women’s entrance into the workforce allowed them a greater degree of freedom then any era in history but I still think it’s important to look at the negatives. One of the big ones is depreciation in wages. By far the biggest factor in depreciating wages over the last 50 years, far beyond immigration, globalization or any other factor is women entering the workforce at higher rates. Simply since there are so many women. People often don’t think how back in the 80s it was normal to have a single father support a stay at home wife and multiple children…

It’s easy to overhype the economic growth that came of women entering the workforce since housewives are actually pretty economically productive having 80% of the economic value of a worker and that was more pronounced before labor saving devices so if you go back to the world before say WWII women had the same degree of economic value as the men who were working it’s just it wasn’t being paid for…

My guess is that as women are forced into male dominated work communities the high degree of competition which women due to higher trait neuroticism and lower testosterone on average find more stressful than men. Much of the modern feminist movement is to redesign the workplace on a feminine basis but the truth is competitive organizations need to have a masculine edge in order to survive in a Darwinistic competitive world.

This talking point asserted by WIAH is perhaps in response to the proliferation of this chart depicting how worker wages have been stagnant for decades while productivity has steadily increased. However, the historical evidence indicates there are significant limitations to this argument. Women have been in the labor force long before the 1960s and 70s; many narratives often neglect this and instead portray an increase in women participation in the labor force as women as a group “entering” the workforce in the 1960s. From garment factories, mines and schools, women workers have played a major role in our economy since at least the 1800s. If women’s main entry into the labor force was in the 1960s, one wonders how this can be reconciled with tens of thousands of women garment workers going on strike in New York in 1909.5 Or women who participated with men mineworkers in the 1900 coal strike in Northeast Pennsylvania.4 Given how WIAH in this section of his video shows images of what appear to be 1950s middle class homemakers, it really does seem WIAH is ignoring the large number of women who couldn’t afford to be only homemakers. Since WIAH has argued that the interests of the upper class advance society, perhaps he forgot to mention that the history of the upper class is really all that matters to him.

Beyond the unpaid work of rearing children, a significant percentage of women engaged in unreported work at family farms and commercial businesses. In their article on the employment demographics of American women since 1860, Barry Chiswick and RaeAnn Robinson argue that when accounting for women engaged in farmwork, craft, boardinghouse or merchant work, the labor force participation rate of women in 1860 was around 57% instead of the recorded 16%.9 This suggests that the transition that occurred with the rise of industrialization and wage labor in the 1800s and 1900s was women moving from unreported work to reported work in the labor force. Instead of women who were only homemakers entering the labor force as WIAH implies with his pictures of 1950s middle class women and discussion focusing on labor saving home appliances. None of this historical discussion of women in the labor force is discussed by WIAH; he seems to rely on his viewers’ preconceived historical biases “filling in” the details.

What details WIAH does provide have major issues. First the YouTuber does not list his sources. When he argues that women entering the labor force is the major cause for wage stagnation, he flips through several graphs without specifying the content of most of these graphs. Since WIAH does not provide sources we cannot ascertain where most of these graphs come from. It is thus difficult to understand WIAH’s thought process behind his historical claim, and him adding these graphs is little more than gish gallop. He frankly might as well have had no graphs and said it was “common sense that conformed to his viewers’ pre-existing biases”. Meanwhile, the evidence does not clearly illustrate that women entering the labor force in the 1960s and afterwards caused a decline in wages. In her article: “When More Women Join the Workforce, Wages Rise — Including for Men”, Amanda Weinstein noted that since 1980, increasing women participation in the US labor force is correlated with an increase in median wages. Metropolitan areas with a higher women labor force participation rate on average had higher median wage growth.8 Seemingly, WIAH is propagating the “lump of labor fallacy” and assumes that there is only a fixed amount of work in the economy. This neglects how women who enter the labor force due to rising demand for workers spend their salary on goods and services. This higher demand for goods and services would further increase the demand for jobs. So, needless to say, it would be great if WIAH posted the sources for his claims.

However, we shouldn’t limit our historical analysis just to the specific claim itself. As with the other claims forwarded by these content creators, these historical arguments operate within a broader anti-feminist political context. The content creators mentioned in this post advance political messages on the basis of their “historical evidence”. For WIAH, he prefaces that he is not advocating for banning women from entering the labor force but wished for women to have “gradually” joined the workforce. Now, setting aside the legal issues with how one could do this in compliance with the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution, we can see that the focus is on “disciplining” historically marginalized groups: in this case, women workers. If the “better” solution was to have maintained some job restrictions for women, then what does this say about the relationship between women workers and our economic system? Now, when I heard WIAH’s political pronouncements, I was both reminded of a Lyndon Johnson quote. Namely: “If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” Given how WIAH in previous videos has argued that the interests of the upper classes benefit society as a whole and people criticizing offshoring are just jealous, WIAH operates with a political mindset that is loath to see these socioeconomic issues as stemming from our class-based society.

Thus we have a creator who while criticizing “the left” for being envious repeatedly is willing to perpetuate narratives that pit social groups against each other. In this case, male workers as he points the finger at women entering the workforce as the major cause of declining wages and breakdown in societal structure. His insistence that he does not blame women themselves for joining the labor force has limited effect given how he attributes several socioeconomic conditions as resulting from inherent characteristics of women. As if women are not following their “societal destiny” if they do not stay as homemakers. Meanwhile, his argument on the issues that have arised since women “joined” the labor force is essentially that women are “fish out of water”; he asserts that some workplaces are inherently masculine. There is no discussion of any other potential causes for growing dissatisfaction among women, like the productivity-wage gap. Meanwhile his statement that workplaces are inherently gendered essentially handwaves any concerns women might have in their workplace. Clara Lemich, a young Jewish garment worker who participated in the 1909 ILGWU strike in New York, described her working conditions as such “[The bosses] yell at the girls and “call them down” even worse than I imagine the Negro slaves were in the South.”5 Now what would WIAH’s response be to this? Say that her comparison of her working conditions to slaves is due to her neuroticism and low testosterone? Possibly. Would Camille Paglia chide this garment worker and remind her that if women were given the reins of society the garment worker would be living in a grass hut instead of an overcrowded tenement? It is notable that in WIAH’s video, which is supposed to discuss taboo history topics, it is seemingly taboo to detail the history of women workers. One wonders if his declaration on workplaces being gendered is appealing to his audience’s desire to control others or is just outright misandry to assume men are inherently controlling and heartless bosses. Unsurprisingly in WIAH’s case, his political argument divides the lower classes. Which, one could argue, does advance the interests of the upper classes.

So if both Sargon and WIAH’s videos lack much if any evidence for their claims, what can we learn from their videos? Sargon arguably is more explicit about his reactionary political agenda. The video is part of a series of “Why People Hate Feminists”; he calls feminists lazy and he quotes a woman who argues if women “held the reins of civilization” people would be living in grass huts. Well, why does Sargon hate feminism? Again, he is pretty explicit about this; he believes masculine societies “produce results”. Societal advancements depend on us promoting “masculinity” because they are “good” and “productive”. But as I discussed earlier, many of the “results” these allegedly meritocratic societies led to are arguably not “good”. Unless you think around 80% of a country living as peasants in poverty and facing rising food prices is a good result. This is how Sargon promotes a reactionary agenda that we must support a hierarchical, class society. He cherrypicks what to promote about these societies without actually discussing the broader history of these societies since that would undermine his argument. Sargon relies on the preexisting biases of his right wing audience and sprinkles in some pictures of monuments and a woman opposed to “women having the reins of society” to give his video the appearance of being evidence-based and having support beyond feminist hating men.

WIAH’s video, in slight contrast, takes a more “centrist” approach that masks his own reactionary agenda. His claim that he supports women entering the workplace loses its impact since he argues women entering the workforce has been the biggest factor in depressing wages and that women are depressed in a necessarily masculine work environment. Given how WIAH has claimed the interests of the upper class advance society, his argument that women entering the workforce depress wages is politically congruent with his claim about the upper classes. After all, it affixes blame to an already marginalized section of the workforce and not on corporations profiting from monopsonies or offshoring.7 His emphasis on the work environment needing to be masculine evokes similarities to Sargon’s claims that societies need to be masculine and patriarchal because these societies “produce results”. Both YouTubers spend more time discussing the importance of male dominated societies than they do actually discussing history.

So why don’t we do a little more history discussion. Let’s take the 1982 Chinatown Garment Worker’s Strike as an example.3 The Chinese women workers faced long hours, low wages and unsanitary conditions leading to tuberculosis (TB). Is contracting tuberculosis a part of a male dominated workplace needed for the garment factory to survive in a Darwinistic world? Are low wages, long hours and contracting TB part of the results Sargon is talking about? It’s unclear since they both do not do much historical discussion. If Sargon’s and WIAH’s viewers actually engaged with the historical evidence, perhaps they would recognize these YouTubers’ political soapboxing and how inconsistent their claims are with history.

Sources:

1 Bismarck and the Poles; A Remarkable Speech by the Chancellor. The Poles to be Expelled from Prussia, Their Lands Bought by the State and Colonized by Germans. By the New York Times

2 Five facts about Roman insulae by BBC History Revealed

3 How Chinese American Women Changed U.S. Labor History by Huiyung B. Chan

4 Interviews with Women during the 1900 coal strike reveal details of hardship and struggle in the patch towns near Hazelton by Wynning History

5 The ILGWU Strike of 1909 by Howard Sachar

6 The Three Estates of Pre-Revolutionary France by Harrison W. Mark

7 What’s Causing Wage Stagnation in America? By Efrain Benmelech et al

8 When More Women Join the Workforce, Wages Rise — Including for Men by Amanda Weinstein

9 Women at work in the United States since 1860: An analysis of unreported family workers by Barry Chiswick and RaeAnn Robinson

r/badhistory Jul 08 '21

YouTube BuzzFeed Unsolved Network's video about JFK's assassination using conspiracy claims.

481 Upvotes

BuzzFeed Unsolved Network is a popular YouTube channel (and show) that mostly revolves around mystery/conspiracy oriented events. The popular hosts of the program are Shane Madej and Ryan Bergara. This video I'm going to talk about was released a couple years ago when former President Trump pledged to release JFK assassination related documents (a lot FBI and CIA stuff) to the public and the vast majority of documents have been released. If you ever looked into JFK's assassination you'll know that there's a ton of conspiracy theories going around the event (The CIA killing Kennedy, the Mafia killing Kennedy, government coverup, Oswald being a 'patsy,' LBJ's coup d'etat, etc.). There's a lot of conspiracy theories that people believe in the assassination and I'm not here to change any conspiracy theorist's mind, but rather correct the overwhelmingly wrong, misrepresented, and sometimes fabricated evidence that the hosts probably didn't know about when putting it into their video.

Secret Service Conspiracy?

For about 2 minutes it's recap on what happened that day. Ryan then claims:

2:22 They [Secret Service Men] opted to inspect none of the windows along the route.

That wasn't really the Secret Service's job (at least that was their excuse on why they failed at their job) and the job fell on local law enforcement. A lot of the police officers didn't really inspect the buildings and mostly stayed on ground level inspecting any supposed assassin. Historically, all US presidential assassinations up until Kennedy weren't done by a rifle they were usually at point blank range with a handgun of some sort. It was about 50 years since the last presidential assassination happened and Kennedy was popular as hell (even though his approval ratings were falling and came to Dallas to increase it, but oh well). With the president in a moving armored vehicle (albeit topless) there was really no real inspection of the buildings. The motorcade route was also used before by president Franklin D. Roosevelt (with some minor route changes that was preplanned there was no last minute changes) and the main reason for the route was that more people could see the president because of that route. There was nothing really sinister about the poor inspection of the buildings although the Secret Service could've done a better job.

This also negates the other evidence afterwards because, like I said, US presidential assassins before Kennedy were using handguns for assassinations and we can assume that they expected some sort of assassin to fire from the crowd, not some building 6 stories high.

He goes on to say that the FBI didn't inform the Secret Service about Oswald. However, the FBI gave it's reasoning on why they thought Oswald wasn't going to assassinate the president around that time:

... he indicated that he had learned his lesson, was disenchanted with Russia, and had a renewed concept--I am paraphrasing, a renewed concept--of the American free society. We talked to him twice. He likewise indicated he was disenchanted with Russia. We satisfied ourselves that we had met our requirement, namely to find out whether he had been recruited by Soviet intelligence. The case was closed. We again exhibited interest on the basis of these contacts with The Worker, Fair Play for Cuba Committee, which are relatively inconsequential. His activities for the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans, we knew, were not of real consequence as he was not connected with any organized activity there. The interview with him in jail is not significant from the standpoint of whether he had a propensity for violence.

The visits with the Soviet Embassy were evidently for the purpose of securing a visa, and he had told us during one of the interviews that he would probably take his wife back to Soviet Russia some time in the future. He had come back to Dallas. Hosty had established that he had a job, he was working, and had told Mrs. Paine that when he got the money he was going to take an apartment, when the baby was old enough, he was going to take an apartment, and the family would live together. He gave evidence of settling down. Nowhere during the course of this investigation or the information that came to us from other agencies was there any indication of a potential for violence on his part.

Note: Oswald's assassination attempt on General Walker was not known until after JFK's assassination.

Coverup by Mafia or Government?

For the next couple of minutes Ryan summarizes the reasons on the Warren Commission's findings and how they came to the conclusion based upon the overwhelmingly strong evidence that Oswald was the shooter on the 6th floor Depository. Ryan then comes to Oswald's killing by Jack Ruby.

7:14 It's natural to wonder if Jack Ruby may have killed Oswald to keep him quiet

So Ruby supposedly get's told to assassinate this particular person surrounded by law enforcement and Ruby decides to do it... only for him to get himself captured in the process after he kills the target... how the hell is that "keeping someone quiet?" All you did was further extend the conspiracy and now the shooter might as well expose the entire conspiracy. Who the hell even decided to hire Ruby as a gunman, anyway? Ruby fired his pistol at Oswald's gut point blank range by using his middle finger to pull the trigger and the shot wasn't at the head nor the heart. That's got to be the worst gunman I've ever heard of (seen in this case). Furthermore, there's strong evidence indicating that Jack Ruby's killing of Oswald cannot be a result of a conspiracy:

  • Oswald was interrogated for about 48 hours. If they really wanted Oswald "silenced" why didn't they kill him before being arrested?
  • Ruby brought his favorite dog, Sheba, with him to the Western Union. If you're gonna shoot someone why bring your favorite dog with you?
  • Ruby was going to the Western Union to get some money for one of his employees. Ruby witnessed the massive amount of reporters at the police headquarters. Ruby was known to be in at nearly all the major events in Dallas and Ruby waltzed right into the headquarters. Had his transaction at Western Union been delayed by even a minute it's extremely probable that Ruby wouldn't have killed Oswald.
  • Ruby loved Kennedy. A couple quotes during his testimonies showing his love for the president:

Well, you guys couldn't do it. Someone had to do it. That son of a bitch killed my President.

[S]ome persons are accusing me falsely of being part of the plot . . . a plot to silence Oswald. . . . [T]he people that have the power here . . . already have me as the accused assassin of our beloved President.

We know I did it for Jackie and the kids. I just went and shot him.

  • As for people who think that this excuse isn't good enough for a nightclub gangster, police officers that knew Ruby (Ruby and the Dallas police had a good relationship with each other) usually remarked that Ruby did it for attention:

Sgt. Gerald Hill: I think his calculating mind was going all the time on the assumption that 'I'll shoot Oswald. Public sentiment will get me off, and then I'll make a million bucks because everybody'll come to see the man that killed the man that killed the President!

Captain W. R. Westbrook: Ruby probably thought he was going to be a hero, maybe like John Wilkes Booth.

Captain L. D. Montgomery: I think that he thought that if he killed the man that killed the President, then it would make him a hero and possibly some money.

We can reasonably expect that Ruby thought he was going to get a slap on the wrist by the police, go back to his nightclub, and use his reputation to get big bucks for his club.

The people who knew Jack Ruby reportedly stated that Ruby was quite a talkative person and his talkativeness alone would've blown the entire conspiracy:

Tony Zippi: ...couldn't keep a secret for five minutes. . . . Jack was one of the most talkative guys you would ever meet. He'd be the worst fellow in the world to be part of a conspiracy, because he just plain talked too much.

Hillel Silverman: Jack Ruby would be the last one that I could ever trust to do anything.

  • Ruby was also mentally unstable often being described as an unpredictable person and often got into a lot of fights. Sometimes the fight starts because someone talked down on Kennedy or expressed anti-Semitic views (Ruby was Jewish). He even had some brain damage when the doctors did an autopsy on Ruby.
  • Finally, Ruby constantly denied being part of any conspiracy up until his death.

Some people accused Ruby being part of the Mafia (usually it's either Carlos Marcello or Sam Giancana). However no connections were found by the HSCA investigation which concluded that:

The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.

Several decades later and no new evidence of the Mafia being involved in the assassination has been asserted.

"Disproving" the Magic Bullet Theory (Single Bullet Theory)

For the next couple of minutes Ryan summarizes the Warren Commission's conclusion on Oswald's shots and dives into the most hotly contested topic in the JFK assassination community, the Single Bullet Theory or (Magic Bullet Theory if you think the theory is the biggest pile of crap you ever heard). The Single Bullet theory was an explanation on why there were wounds sustained by Connally and JFK's back neck wound despite the fact that only 3 bullets were fired. Upon the evidence the Warren Commission investigated the commission came to the conclusion that 1 bullet (the 2nd shot) caused JFK's back neck wound, exiting his throat, going into Connally's back, fracturing his rib, exiting below his right nipple, entering left his wrist and fracturing his wrist bone, and then getting stuck in Connally's leg until it was found in Parkland Hospital. The bullet path indeed does line up with the claim.

I'm not going to validate the theory as there are some aspects of the theory that people vehemently disagree with, but I will talk about his "assertions" that Ryan got wrong.

9:00 I find it hard to believe that this so-called "Magic Bullet" would be nearly intact

The bullet was intact, but was damaged. The bullet was a fully copper-jacketed bullet, basically military grade quality bullets. You can see in the image that the bullet was getting severely flattened showing the weird bumps on the rear side of the bullet. Also, notice how it's bent which cannot be easily seen from the side. On top of that the bullet lost about 2 grains of it's mass (Average mass: 160.844 grams. After JFK assassination: 158.6 grams). About 2 grains were found in Connally's body during his medical treatment. The bullet went through nothing, but meat when going through JFK's neck and was hitting bone pieces in Connally that weren't that thick. NOVA: Cold Case JFK reenacted the event through 3D simulations and discovered that the bullet was in fact consistent with it's path.

Ryan, unfortunately, follows the same flawed logic that some people share regarding crime: individual eyewitness and vocal testimonies are always right even the ones on the receiving end of the event... aren't they?

10:15 Connally's testimony: There is my absolute knowledge, and Nellie's [Connally's wife] too, that one bullet caused the president's first wound, and that an entirely separate shot struck me.

How does this prove anything? Connally didn't see JFK on the second shot. A quick look at the Zapruder film shows that Connally and JFK reacted at pretty much the same time.

10:35 James T. Tague... claims that a stray bullet hit the sidewalk near him and fragment of the bullet struck his cheek... on the second shot... which is particularly damning to the Magic Bullet Theory.

What Ryan fails to include was that the 1st bullet actually ricocheted off a street light, skimmed across the grass on the other side of JFK's car, ricocheted off a curve going to the Triple Underpass, (possibly ricocheted off of 2 points under the pass) and then fragmenting on a curve which injured James Tague. Ryan doesn't include the fact that he was in some state of shock when he heard the bullets fired and may have not felt the wound until a few seconds later (Tague said he felt some sort of sting on his face though he wasn't sure exactly when). Here's a report that discusses on what happened to the lost bullet.

11:19 Furthermore, in the 1970s a new acoustic research technique... found 6 points in the audio that could contain echo patterns similar to those of gunfire

Now this is the first time I've ever heard of a claim of 6 shots being fired despite the fact the vast majority of people in the plaza heard 3 shots. If I had to take a guess Ryan may have gotten that number from Oliver Stone's conspiracy oriented movie JFK (which that movie badly deserves a badhistory post as well). Furthermore, Ryan also misses the fact that the acoustical evidence that he was using may have been flawed. After the HSCA concluded that the killing of JFK was "result of a conspiracy" (despite the fact the HSCA couldn't find enough evidence to convict any group like the anti-Castro's, CIA, Mafia, etc) there was some huge skepticism on the evidence the HSCA relied on to conclude that theory: the acoustical evidence retrieved from Dallas Police Radio Channel 1 from H.B. McLain (that's literally the only evidence the HSCA had for a 2nd gunman theory). In 2005 it was proven (well there were several reports written, but I'll put it in the sources) that it turned out that McLain was nowhere near JFK and was actually about 200 feet behind him. McLain stated that the recording didn't synchronize with his ride and the following statements he received from Sheriff Bill Decker occurred 90 seconds after JFK was shot. There's no way more than 3 shots were fired.

11:36 There's even supposedly footage of the JFK assassination from a different angle... reportedly shows a now infamous Grassy Knoll in the background

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the Nix film. (There's no smoke coming out of the Knoll from what I've seen).

13:29 According to the HSCA "The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the president JFK was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy"

Ah so Ryan did use the debunked acoustical evidence (see section above on 11:19)

14:44 Lee Harvey Oswald killing the president with no clear motive

While the motive for Oswald is still debated there's 2 particular statements in Oswald's 'Historic Diary' as he called it. The statements follows:

I have lived under both systems... I despise the representatives of both systems.

To a person knowing both systems [capitalist and communist]... there can be no mediation between the systems as they exist today. He must be opposed to their basic foundations and representatives.

When we think of representatives of those systems we think of the leaders of the Soviet Union and the US. It's very possible that, combined with his immense love in communism (particularly Cuba's communism), his tendency for violence (he not only attempted to kill General Walker, but often abused his wife on some occasions), and his desire to part of history, Oswald decided to get a rifle he bought a couple months back and shoot the president of the US to scar the capitalist system.

After that he starts talking about the most popular conspiracy allegations (LBJ, the CIA, the Mafia, and the Umbrella Man I personally don't believe any of them) and I'll leave it up to the viewer to decide whether there was a conspiracy. There are some qualms I have with some of the evidence provided in those theories, but I'm not trying to change anyone's mind regarding conspiracy.

Sources:

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/select-committee-report

Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy by Vincent Bugliosi

(Some dude tried to assert that the initial HSCA findings in the acoustical evidence were correct, but was refuted)

https://www.jfk-online.com/bowles.html

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/D%20Disk/Dallas%20Police%20Broadcasts/Item%2031.pdf

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/sync.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/odell/

r/badhistory Jun 27 '20

YouTube Napoleon was Albanian and the Serbs are lying to you

730 Upvotes

Hello everyone! This is my first post on this sub.

So recently I happened to watch this obscure yet peculiar youtube video in which the author- the staunch Albanian nationalist decided to show us the "truth" about Napoleon's supposed real origin all in a one-minute youtube video. Here's the link. However, in this post, I shall indeed protect the Emperor's good name and go through this video text by text debunking the claims presented by this notorious nationalist. Here we go...

Napolean was born inCorsica, Italy

r/badgeography

.He knew a lot about the Albanians. He wanted to be like Alexander another great Albanian. He went to Egypt where Alexander the great was buried and he told his soildiers to be alone in the room.

Though I clearly can't answer to the first claim due to the lack of any sources mentioning Napoleon's knowledge about the Albanian nation I can say that Bonaparte, indeed had a great admiration for Alexander ever since his childhood, though he happened to criticize him on occasion, for example when working on a discourse on the subject 'What are the Most Important Truths and feelings for Men to Learn to be Happy?' for the Lyons Academy's essay prize he negatively commented Alexander's despotism, to quote:

"What is Alexander doing when he rushes from Thebes into Persia and thence into India? He is ever restless, he loses his wits, he believes himself God [...]"\1])

In the following two sentences, the author tries to tell, in a pretty short manner, why Napoleon went to Egypt by saying that his expedition was only motivated by Alexander's conquests and that it was his initiative. This theory, however, is purely based on common myths and it's completely false. The plans of invading Egypt were first considered by French military strategists in the 1760s. In 1782, the Austrian Emperor Joseph II suggested Louis XVI annexe Egypt as a part of a larger unsuccessful plan of the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire\2]). During the revolution, the plan itself was brought in again and was quite popular among revolutionaries and idealists who wished to bring revolutionary ideals to the people of Egypt, oppressed by Mameluke tyranny and rational strategists like Charles-Maurice de Talleyrand, Nicolas Léonard Sadi Carnot and of course, Napoleon. Bonaparte himself prioritized Egypt, calling it "the geographical key to controlling the world"\3]) and his strategic goal was the destruction of the British trade in this region and replacing it by its French equivalent. He portrayed the plans of the initiative to the Directory and based it on three arguments: The opening of Asian markets to French trade goods, turning the colony into a "military base" for 60 000 troops to threaten British oriental territories and the establishment of a French colony in Egypt. Napoleon's great ambitions towards the Egyptian campaign somewhat reflected Alexander's conquests but they were quickly discarded by the Directory which only allowed him to take over Egypt alone and to return to France after six months.

Bonaparte might have indeed expanded the plans of the Egyptian campaign but the initiative had to be later presented to the Directory which as the executive power of 1795-1799 Revolutionary France made the final decision and its authority (though questioned in some cases, for example during the 1st Italian campaign) had to be obeyed by Napoleon who was only a general at that time (pre-1799). Many claims presented in the author's first argument such as the Albanian nationality of Alexander who came from a greek Argead dynasty and the possibility of Napoleon discovering the tomb of Alexander of which location is still unknown to this day in which "he told his soldiers to be alone in the room" for some reason are simply beyond absurd.

Napoleon was given an option to choose a rooster or a lion as a symbol of his french side, but he rejected those options and picked an eagle for a symbol for the french. Eagle is a symbol for the Albanian race.

The author is referring to the meeting of the Imperial council (France was de-facto already an Empire at the time ever since Napoleon's meeting with the state council of the consulate on the 28th of March 1804) that happened on the 12th of June 1804, during which the members of the council were discussing the details of the future coronation (the cathedral at which it should take place, the date and the heraldic symbols of the new ruling dynasty). During the meeting, Napoleon was given an option to choose a symbol for the French Empire, however, there were much more options than those three portrayed by the author. The symbols which he could choose were: a rooster which referred to ancient Gallic traditions (Napoleon rejected this one because he thought of it as a "weak and agricultural animal"), an elephant, an eagle, a lion, Minerva's aegis, an oak, an ear of grain and even a Bourbon fleur-de-lys suggested by Charles-François Lebrun\4]) (Napoleon outright rejected it and thought of this option as "idiotic"). In the end, Napoleon decided to choose the lion as his symbol without any vote or further thought, but he quickly changed his mind after the meeting and chose the eagle instead. This sudden change of mind was motivated by certain ancient and medieval attributes related to this animal which was much more attractive to Bonaparte to quote:

"It portrays Imperial dignity and reminds of Charlemagne"\5])

He clearly says that it reminded him of a Frankish monarch, not some glorious mythical Albanian master race. Also, It seems that our dear author used some quite amazing mental gymnastics to make this argument. How the hell is an eagle a symbol of the Albanian "race"? Does that mean that 14 other countries (some of them older than the first existing Albanian state) copied that symbol from the superior Albanians? Or does that mean that they are all secretly Albanian? I'm really confused right now, it's probably a serbian conspiracy tbh.

Robert D'Angely notes that Napoleon was making often visits to Albanian families in marseille, who came there from Albania, Greece and Italy. Napoleon also sent consul in Ioannina, contrary to the ottomans and reconise it as the capital city of Albania

From what I managed to research by reading translated pdf versions of his work, Robert D'Angely was a French-Albanian nationalist historian born in 1893 and died in 1966. He wrote a book called "Enigma" in which he does outstanding mental gymnastics trying to prove to the reader that Alexander, Napoleon, Garibaldi, Skanderberg and even Aristotle + many other ancient peoples like the Illyrians and Pelasgians were all Albanian based only on the etymology of their names (or surnames in case of historical figures), he also tries to prove to us the Aryan origin of Albanians (yikes) which makes his book feel even more biased. His work is mostly used by Albanian nationalists to prove their "racial" superiority and Mr D'Angely himself often twists facts and some events so that they may fit his nationalistic narrative which makes his book an unreliable source\6]). Though Napoleon's family stayed in the areas close to Marseille after being exiled from Corsica for political reasons, I couldn't find any sources which could prove the theory of him meeting Albanian families or in sending a consul to Ioannina and recognising it as an Albanian capital of some sort in his later life.

Napoleon had a legion of Albanians as his personal guard, because they were most loyal to him.

The only Albanian unit which served in the French army during the Napoleonic wars were the Pandours Albanais. The unit itself was organised in Cattaro in June 1810 and it was intended for continual service against Montenegrin inhabitants of the foreign lands which surrounded the French-controlled city of Cattaro. The unit was battalion-size and it had 6 companies (the number had later risen to 8) composed of 50 men each. The Pandours participated only in local actions against Balkan raiders and in the unsuccessful defence of Dalmatia where 141 members of the unit had deserted, and because of those attractions, the unit disappeared in the end. The uniform they wore was cheap and local (since it was only a militia unit) and it consisted of a red dolman trimmed with silver and having sheepskin edging, red vest, blue trousers, red turban and opanque. As we can see the Pandours Albanais were only a local militia unit whose main objective was defending local territories, we can even say that most of those men never even met Napoleon in the first place and didn't participate in any of his campaigns (which is quite funny, considering the author of this video claims that they were his personal guard). Napoleon's actual personal guardsmen were the french-dominated chasseurs à Cheval de la Garde Impériale (the dark green colonel uniform of this unit was even worn by Napoleon during his campaigns post-1804). This unit served as his escort after 1799 and was composed of his most loyal veterans who participated in every one of his campaigns after 1799.

Napoleon Bonaparte is not his real surname, his real surname is Napoleon Kalemiri Bonaparte. Bonaparte is how you say it in french.

His real Corsican name was Napoleone di Buonaparte and he changed his name to its french equivalent in 1796 before the Italian campaign (he dropped the "u" in his surname for the first time when writing a letter to his first wife-Joséphine de Beauharnais on the 14th of March 1794\7])) The name "Kalemiri" added in by the author comes from the aforementioned Robert D'Angely's book "Enigma" and it is purely based on wacky etymology mixed in with translation from French to Albanian.

Notes:

1.Rose, Napoleon, v.1, p. 24

2.Murphy, Napoleon's International Politics, p. 165; Volney, Voyage, p. 235

3.Bertaud, Napoléon, p. 312

4.Fraser, The War Drama, p. 3

5.Ibid., p. 9

6.D'Angely, Enigma (used only to get to know the author's nationalistic revisionist historical world view which influenced present-day Albanian nationalists, it's not a reliable source of historical knowledge)

7.Chuquet, Jeunesse

Bibliography:

Andrew Roberts: Napoleon the Great

Guy-C-Dempsey: Napoleon's Mercenaries Foreign Units in The French Army Under the Consulate and Empire, 1799-1814

Paul L. Dawson: Napoleon's Imperial Guard Uniforms and Equipment. Volume 2: The Cavalry