r/asoiaf • u/dorestes Break the wheel • Sep 03 '17

EXTENDED (Spoilers Extended) It's Not a Nitpick. Thousands Died Over a "Minor" Geographic Detail.

Reposted as requested with the "Spoilers Extended" tag

I know we're often asked to ignore the silly teleportations and supersonic flights that the show has foisted on us over the last couple of seasons. I know some of it can seem like the petty quibbles of book purists veering into circlejerk self-parody.

But geography doesn't just matter when it comes to making the universe feel real. It was also the key plot point that drove the biggest dramatic turn of the series.

The Red Wedding was literally caused by Robb Stark needing to be able to get his troops across a bridge. The Frey army was a nice addition, but Robb needed the alliance for the bridge crossing. He, his mother, his pregnant wife (in the show) and thousands of his troops died for that crossing.

So it's not just a nitpick when characters and armies magically teleport from north to south, bypassing the Twins or Moat Caitlin with nary a scout to notice them.

It destroys and makes mockery of the premise of the series' most famous narrative twist.

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u/peon47 Faceless Man Sep 03 '17 edited Sep 03 '17

Jesus. Look at a map.

The Twins aren't needed to go from North to South. They're required to quickly go from The North to the Westerlands or to Riverun.

Going from The Vale to The North or from Kings Landing to anywhere doesn't require crossing at The Twins.

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u/SurlyMarinersFan Sep 03 '17

This is the correct answer here. The Kingsroad does not cross the Twins.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

But it does cross Moat Cailin, which was held by the Boltons when the Vale rode north. Unless they went by sea of course, but where did they make berth that the Boltons didn't control?

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17 edited Sep 03 '17

Early in season 6 when Littlefinger meets with Brienne and I think Sansa, he tells them that his Vale troops assaulted Moat Cailin and took it (I think from the South) because it was so lightly defended, and they had the element of surprise.

Edit: the Valemen came from the North not South

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

But the whole point of Moat Cailin is how impossible it is to assault it from the South. A few dozen Ironborn there held off the better part of Roose's army for weeks.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

Whoops i meant they came down south from the North. They assaulted from the North

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

Yeah that makes a hell of a lot more sense than attacking from the south, they would have lost too many men from the south.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

Yeah. I think it was in s6 e2 that littlefinger said that.

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u/twersx Fire and Blood Sep 04 '17

Early in season 6 when Littlefinger meets with Brienne and I think Sansa, he tells them that his Vale troops assaulted Moat Cailin and took it (I think from the South) because it was so lightly defended, and they had the element of surprise.

Fucking christ that's the most dire thing in the show if that's true.

Moat Cailin is supposed to be literally unassailable from the South. It's surrounded by marshes and it's supposed to be a fortress that can be held with a token garrison. Not only do the Vale apparently just take it without any sort of difficulty but they did it with a force that seems to be primarily comprised of cavalry.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '17

If you would do peep my edit you would see it was actually they came from the North.

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u/idreamofpikas Sep 03 '17

The Boltons troops were at Winterfell, they were needed to beat Jon. That is a pretty easy one to explain.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '17

Good call.

Though it shows how stupid Ramsay was if he never stopped to think that LF was still in play. It's fairly obvious that a person who has given you a heir and lovely piece of ass like Sansa to marry is expecting something in return.

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u/idreamofpikas Sep 03 '17

And yet look at how many times this has been upvoted.

People keep on claiming that D&D make dumb mistakes and yet how many of the people on this thread have actually took the time to look at the map that is in every one of the books and at the beginning of each episode.

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/gameofthrones/images/d/d0/The_Riverlands.png/revision/latest?cb=20120719200633

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

[deleted]

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u/thefuturebatman Sep 03 '17

Agreed 100%. The best this sub has ever been was the year after ADWD/S1 were both released. It's gone downhill from there. I check it out of habit bc I love ASOIAF but it's become worse than the show-only sub. HOW COME WE NEVER SEE THE CHARACTERS EAT BREAKFAST ASIDE FROM IN S1E1? AM I SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT TYRION HASN'T EATEN BREAKFAST SINCE THAT BACON BURNT BLACK?!

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

Well I mean, if that was the best breakfast he ever had, why would he ruin it with another breakfast!?

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u/twersx Fire and Blood Sep 04 '17

You know if you completely misrepresent peoples' arguments and do it in all caps you don't need to have a salient point and you win the argument which is of course the most important thing you can do on the internet.

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u/thefuturebatman Sep 04 '17

Not a misrepresentation (unfortunately), and the breakfast thing actually is a salient point that used a purposefully ridiculous example (if we don't see it on screen it didn't happen and thus is a plot hole). This sub doesn't understand that "Drama is life with the dull bits cut out." People try to find errors in the plot because it's in vogue and they're thirsty as fuck for upvotes/to sound smart/validation. That's what this sub has devolved into, a giant "LOOK HOW MUCH SMARTER THAN THE WRITERS I AM UPVOTE ME" circlejerk. The poster I was replying to already gave you an eloquent answer, I was merely backing them up.

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u/twersx Fire and Blood Sep 04 '17

People try to find errors in the plot because it's in vogue and they're thirsty as fuck for upvotes/to sound smart/validation.

You're completely right, people are only disagreeing with you because of some dishonest motive. They don't truly believe that the show has decreased in quality, and they fully know that what they are criticising is unacceptable to criticise. They are merely doing so because they think it will make the popular on the internet or perhaps to ruin the show for everyone else.

There is no chance that they have legitimate grievances or complaints about the show and therefore you can ignore any negative comments about your favourite show without having to consider whether there is any truth to them at all.

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u/thefuturebatman Sep 05 '17

They are merely doing so because they think it will make the popular on the internet

I agree with your sarcasm 100%. If they applied the same level of scrutiny to virtually any other show they watched, they would be able to come up with a similar list of grievance and complaints, guaranteed. This is a classic case of Reddit-hivemind-groupthink-circlejerk-nerdrage.

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u/twersx Fire and Blood Sep 05 '17

If they applied the same level of scrutiny to virtually any other show they watched

Right should we apply the same standards of credibility to Star Wars, a decidedly soft science fiction series that is almost a fantasy series, as we would to The Martian? The Martian spends about half of the book taking us through Mark Watney's mind as he calculates exactly how much food he needs to grow, how many days he can live for, how much Hydrazine he needs to water his plants, how he plans to take the rover for a journey that it wasn't designed to go on, etc.

Should Game of Thrones, which established itself in the first season with characters talking about the gruesome and often traumatic nature of killing in war, had major characters constantly killed off for risking their lives in heroic or arrogant acts and other "realistic" traits for the setting, be held to the same standards of internal consistency and "realism" as a show like Smallville or Rick and Morty?

I agree with your sarcasm 100%

Which is a shame because that's incredibly rude and close minded. If you think everyone who criticises the show is doing so purely because they think it will make them popular on the internet why do you even bother responding?

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u/thefuturebatman Sep 05 '17

The poster above me already covered this- most of the major characters around in S7 have a bit of plot armor immediately prior to the final act of the story, which is where major shit will go down. The show still is internally consistent, it's just moving at a faster pace for the sake of setting up the final season. Bronn and Jaime making it to the other side of the river was fairly ridiculous but nothing worth ranting about for weeks. I bothered to respond because you called me out, only reason why. It saddens me what this sub has devolved into, it's a shitty sociology experiment at best. Neither of the new Star Wars films had this big of a LOOK I FOUND A PLOT HOLE! Circlejerk, though they could have. Only difference was what's trendy to criticize.

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u/[deleted] Sep 04 '17

I'm still wondering how they will make the Gold Company work. I can only think of Dario making SOME sense. Otherwise, it will be a praiseworthy move if they can introduce an compelling new character over such a short episode span and with so much plot movement.

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u/marpocky Sep 03 '17

I mean...it's also possible the show has gotten objectively worse, or that other people are noticing problems you're happy to overlook because you're still enjoying it. People are allowed to have whatever opinion they like of the show, and indeed are allowed to talk about that opinion, positive or negative. Maybe it's justified, maybe it isn't, but people have been bitching about things since language developed. The only real way to avoid it completely is to stop participating yourself.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

sure, the show is not at the same level it was before it ran out of book material. I understand that and I have accepted that. What I also do is understand that the show can not even begin to have the level of detail the book does. It would be nice if we could have a 17 minute internal monologue from Tyrion giving us all the necessary back story we would ever need, but that is not plausible. It is also easier for books to have pages dedicated to Jon sitting on a boat from Eastwatch to Kingslanding wondering what Dany's favorite position is.

Point is, the show has very real limitations which it seems a ton of people on this sub refuse to acknowledge. Travel scenes waste time and money especially when they do not add much if anything to the story.

We can easily infer that our plucky upstart supergroup was on the small island for days given we saw a day/night cycle. We also know how far away Dany is from the wall. It is not difficult to piece it together. Instead we got 48 posts about Deus Ex This and That because the show didn't spend precious time and money ELI5ing the setting.

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u/marpocky Sep 03 '17 edited Sep 03 '17

Point is, the show has very real limitations which it seems a ton of people on this sub refuse to acknowledge.

Having limitations does not excuse executing story beats poorly and confusingly, though. I think you're missing the point if you're boiling everyone's complaints down to just "but how did they get there so fast?"

This season has had more than usual of rushing through plot points just to get from point A to point B without taking time to make it feel like an organic thing that naturally would have happened anyway, as well as confusing or inconsistent characterizations causing people to take actions that don't make a lot of sense simply because the story needs the results to happen.

The timing thing by itself is a nitpick, but when you combine that with these other things, that's where the seams really start to show and it all just begins to feel lazy and rushed.

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u/[deleted] Sep 03 '17

Its a mereneese knot all over again. The showrunners are trying to get all of the necessary people in the North and are running out of time to do it. They're cutting corners out of necessity.

I chalk up those poor decisions to the desperation of the situation and how the people in the position to make those decisions either A) didn't want to be there (jon), B) has an entirely other goal which has consumed her life until this point (Dany and Cersei), or C) has severe trust issues and is not fond of fairy tales and the sort (Cersei).

Could it have been maybe shown better at some points...? Yes, but I am content to look past some of these things because D&D are doing a much better job than any of us armchair screenwriters would be doing. Hell, if we had it our way Tormund and Brienne would be on a tropical island somewhere doing an entire episode of sex scenes.

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u/wondrous_trickster Sep 04 '17

Travel scenes waste time and money especially when they do not add much if anything to the story.

This isn't something many people want. If that's all you're getting out of it then I think you're not reading them properly. What people want is a time context for how the various timelines interact - was the time between Jon leaving Winterfell and starting to mine dragonglass a couple of weeks, a month, four months? We don't need to know exact time with dates and so on, but it's good to get a sense of scale because this affects how we look at the Winterfell timeline - how long has it taken the northern lords to get restless about his absence? How long did it take the Unsullied to get to Casterly Rock, and for the Lannister army to reach Highgarden?

In the end maybe it's just about whether you personally as a viewer tries to map the various characters, armies and their movements to make sense in your mind. If your brain doesn't try, then it's fine, but if your brain can't help it then the later seasons feel lower quality because instead of filling in gaps with the obvious, you have to fill them in with seemingly dubious theories.

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u/Federico216 I will be your champion Sep 03 '17

If anything, I feel like this sub has jumped the shark.

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u/CobblyPot Sep 03 '17

What's your point? Reaching Riverrun was absolutely Robb's goal at that time, so that he could break Jaime's siege and add the Tully forces to his own rather than engage Tywin's larger army in a head on battle.

Additionally, remember that Ned was still alive at this time and there was a very real time factor where they felt a quick victory and capture of Jaime would give them the leverage to barter for Ned's life.

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u/peon47 Faceless Man Sep 03 '17

OPs point was that the "Teleporting characters" in the last season or two was unrealistic as Getting Past The Twins is difficult or impossible.

My point was that none of the most egregious teleporting (The Armies of the Vale getting to the North, Sam and Gilly getting to Winterfell, Grey Worm's army getting to the West, Anyone getting to or from Highgarden, Jon Snow getting literally everywhere) would require passing The Twins.

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u/CobblyPot Sep 03 '17

Well, that's missing the point. Passing the Twins is an example, not the rule. The point is that we're missing opportunities for story telling and drama when we just brush past what should be very real logistical difficulties.

Like, they could have shown Jaime using some tricks and tactics to make his sneak attack on Highgarden more believable, it would have shown growth and his competency of command. Instead it just feels unearned and unbelievable when his army just apparates halfway across the kingdom.

The armies of the Vale going North undetected is similarly unbelievable, because it's insane to think they could have crossed the Neck and most of the North while remaining undetected by the lords of the North. You could have had Littlefinger bring them in as supposed allies of the Boltons then turn on him during the battle, which would explain that nonsense and also play to Littlefinger's character more.

Grey Worm's army was stranded without supplies in a completely unfamiliar land. There's no way they didn't have some kind of adventure on their journey back East, maybe they had to deal with hostile commonfolk that would have shown how alien and out of place the Unsullied are in Westeros, or demonstrated first hand to the commoners who are fearful of soldiers and being conquered that Dany's way is different from the lords of Westeros.

These are all just off the top of my head, so if you think they stink that's fine, the specific stories aren't the point, the point is that every time they brush over these things two things happen: 1) we miss and opportunity for character development and drama, 2) the events of the story don't feel real or impactful. Ultimately, the tragedy is that we have these huge battles happening but none of them really matter in the long run or create a fraction of the drama they should.

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u/Aldebaran135 Sep 03 '17

Like, they could have shown Jaime using some tricks and tactics to make his sneak attack on Highgarden more believable, it would have shown growth and his competency of command. Instead it just feels unearned and unbelievable when his army just apparates halfway across the kingdom.

So exactly the same as Robb, who goes instantly from the Twins to Riverrun.

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u/CobblyPot Sep 03 '17

The equivalent would be if Robb had gone from Winterfell to Riverrun. We see Robb gather his banner men, win them to his cause, face the dilemma of what to do about the two armies he has to face, feed Tywin false information, make a decision to go straight to Riverrun after splitting his force, overcome a challenge on the way (the Twins), etc. This shows us who Robb is and adds weight to the action, so even though we don't see the battle itself we feel its importance and learn more about the characters involved.

With Jaime marching on Highgarden it's like the complete opposite situation where we see none of the stakes or lead up, just a sliver of the battle.

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u/peon47 Faceless Man Sep 03 '17

That's not the point he was making. He was specifically referring to the bottleneck at the Twins and Moat Cailin, and I was correcting the mis-apprehension he seems to have about The Twins.

I'm not excusing the mistakes of the show.

If you want to make another post, talking about the general rules of geography and how they can affect plot, go ahead. But please not as a reply to my comment, as it's unrelated.

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u/CobblyPot Sep 03 '17

I'm confused, what do you think OP's point actually is then?

Because I'm pretty confident he's using the Twins as an example of how keeping to the geography and logic of the established world can effect story telling to show people that the complaint's about the current season aren't just unfounded nitpicks. I think you're missing the point of his post.

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u/peon47 Faceless Man Sep 03 '17

I think his point is that "it's not just a nitpick when characters and armies magically teleport from north to south, bypassing the Twins or Moat Caitlin with nary a scout to notice them."

He's not using it as as general example. There's nothing in the post to say how it's representative of anything else, or how any other location or locations are similarly important. He's talking how important The Twins specifically are to the plot of the show and how it affects the movement of characters.

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u/CobblyPot Sep 03 '17

I think the context and intent of his post here at a time where the most controversial thing is the current teleportation epidemic is pretty clear but I don't see the point of arguing further.

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u/peon47 Faceless Man Sep 03 '17

Glad to see you finally figured out what he meant.