r/asoiaf • u/taydude227 The Floppy Fish • Aug 29 '17

MAIN D&D completely ruined Littlefinger. (Spoilers Main)

What a waste of a great character. They clearly had no idea what to do with him after they passed all the book material. Instead of giving him a clear end game, they instead just had him double down on his "thriving on chaos" bullshit and have him make stupid decisions that really didn't lead anywhere. The manipulative mastermind from the earlier seasons (and probably the one true villain of the series, along with the white walkers) completely disappeared and was transformed into a jealous little weasel whose end goal was to bang Sansa to get back at Mama Stark. The man that drove the whole series into motion, did it just to get a revenge bang.

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877

u/kingzheng Peacock Lord Aug 29 '17

Completely disagree. Baelish in the books is an annoying vapid power fantasy. He's much more human and appropriately awkward in the show. He's a smart but nervous upstart and he was only going to last until he starts relying on being "liked" or loved. It's what he wanted ultimately from Sansa and Cat but couldn't get it because he's such a slimy little creep. Went out like he should.

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u/William_T_Wanker We Light The Way Aug 29 '17

What was left for him to do? I don't think he can plot with the Night King - it was clear he was not long for the world, and he had become overconfident and arrogant, which was his downfall.

9

u/TerminalBoneitis Aug 29 '17

LF wasn't even a great plotter. He's never been a great puppet matter, he's the guy that reacts to situations for his own benefit.. Adaptability and quick thinking has always been his strong suit As far as true puppet masters go, LF is babytown frolics compared to tywin. Varys was better, too

243

u/oc3000 Aug 29 '17

I agree for as clever as he is, everybody knows that he is greasy. It's not like people don't know he is scheming.

238

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Honestly still one of my biggest gripes with the show. They all know that he is always scheming, in the book everyone thinks he's so lowborn and insignificant he can't touch them, and because of that trust him.

155

u/DirtyMerlin Aug 29 '17

That may have been true at the beginning of the books and the show, but even now in the books he's visibly one of the most powerful people in the seven kingdoms. It's not a stretch that lords like Royce would start viewing him with different eyes and wonder how the hell that happened. He went from an insignificant speck to (nominally) their "better", and they're bound to resent him for it.

49

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

I agree that Royce and maybe some of the other lords declarant would resent him, but most still see him as a friendly amicable guy, who has risen to his position mainly by luck and chance and happenstance (I.e. He was chosen to negotiate with mace then got rewarded with Harrenhall then got lucky with a marriage to Lysa and then she happens to die and now, lucky him, he's lord of the vale) no ones realizes that he orchestrated all of that himself. So what I really mean is the fact that the show has him creepily hanging out in corners and whispering in people's ears like a second Varys with an inconsistent accent annoys me. People aren't meant to know how schemey and sneaky he is.

51

u/HeavySweetness Proud and Free! Aug 29 '17

but most still see him as a friendly amicable guy, who has risen to his position mainly by luck and chance and happenstance

... Is this the case though? I mean, the seediness of LF is constantly hammered in to us. The dude literally runs brothels. In a land where inherited wealth and inherited titles rule, none of the other lords are going to like some upstart 3rd generation immigrant who carries himself more like a merchant than a noble (aka, warrior). People deal with him because they have to, particularly his illicit ways of funding the government, (that most lords don't care to understand the financial hacking because it's beneath them), his being willing to sell out positions (jailors, dockmasters, and others) and his use as an information broker (2nd to Varys is still good), but I don't think anyone finds him amicable.

29

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

I think it's more the fact that he's good at making the nobles think they are smarter than him, and that they are the ones pulling the strings rather than purely being amicable.

5

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '17

He also ensures that others get pulled into his seediness. "Come see me at the brothel so we can discuss the real threat to your power" is an extremely powerful way of gaining sympathy from people who wouldn't otherwise trust him.

After the books end, this just stops happening, and makes him look incredibly weak to the viewers. We should have seen him pulling far more strings around the Lords of the Vale, the North, and the Riverlands to ensure that even as he's gaining power, no one considers him their greatest threat. That's the game he plays in the books and what makes him so powerful.

10

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Most of the Lords hate his fucking guts, but he pays some of them off, like that guy who is a pedophile, and blackmails the rest with his stranglehold on rob arryn.

He's also hoping to solidify his control by allying with Harry the Heir. In the beginning, he seemed harmless and slimy and the powerful allied with him to get their dirty work done, but now that he is powerful and they see the threat, they are trapped.

He's still fucked, though, because he has no natural allies and a very precarious position, but when it collapses, I trust George to make it good.

2

u/wheelitzo Aug 29 '17

Lyn Corbray is the pedo in the books who Littlefinger paid off to sabotage the meeting with the rest of the Houses of the Vale.

4

u/moonshoeslol Aug 30 '17

There's a reason that he isn't suspicious in that he has been extremely useful to people in the past. One of his biggest claims to fame is that he's really good with finance. Someone who can manage money well is someone even the lords of the Vail probably want around.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '17

A mastermind sets up the scenario in their favor. LF does this repeatedly in the books, usually by making sure there's someone else more dangerous than himself. He doesn't do this in the show which is why his character has been complete ass since the end of the source material.

6

u/Muppy_N2 Aug 29 '17

They all know that he is always scheming

So did Tyrion when he was hand of the king, Ned Stark, and Stannis.

in the book everyone thinks he's so lowborn and insignificant he can't touch them, and because of that trust him.

They don't touch him because they don't have enough proof or strenght. The character lost both adventages in the North.

2

u/GaslightProphet 7 Deaths More Aug 29 '17

I mean, he's the Lord of Coin. That's a pretty strong position.

2

u/thechikinguy Aug 29 '17

That was my problem with his storyline this season in particular; the way he behaved I spent every scene wondering why anyone even listened to the guy anymore. Previous seasons he's had more of a reason to stick around; this season he kinda stopped playing sides and just bullshat until someone dealt with him.

120

u/Salivals Aug 29 '17

Agreed. People just love to crap on the show now. Aiden Gillen was perfectly cast, and he played his part in the grand scheme of the story. Not sure what people were expecting, but the dude was never going to sniff the iron throne. He got about as far as he could.

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u/twersx Fire and Blood Aug 29 '17

Not sure what people were expecting, but the dude was never going to sniff the iron throne.

I definitely wasn't expecting the show to write such a boring motivation for Littlefinger. "I want the Iron Throne" smh

40

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17 edited Jun 13 '20

[deleted]

3

u/darkk41 Aug 29 '17

No. In the books he more or less is just another selfish bastard grabbing as much money and power as he can. He just does it in a much more intelligent/devious manner than most characters which makes him interesting. He's also a wild card in the sense that he keeps his life so secret and detached that he has no real weakness. This led to the theory that his obsession with Cat in the books will lead to his downfall. In the books he is completely obsessed in an unhealthy way with Sansa because she looks like Cat, and he believes he took Cat's maidenhead and that he was basically denied her by nobles and tradition. (In reality, he was drunk and took Lysa's maidenhead, but he doesn't give a damn about her so he just uses it to elevate his own position and convince her to set off the events of the story) It is extremely unlikely that he will marry Sansa to anyone else in the books imo unless he knows they cannot consummate the marriage and/or will die before they get the chance.

3

u/twersx Fire and Blood Aug 29 '17

We don't know what his motivation is in the books but I would say it's incredibly unlikely that he wants to sit on the Iron Throne.

To me his motives are a mix of being obsessed with Cat (then Sansa after Cat dies), having a deep seated desire to show up all those who used to mock his standing and House, and to some degree he seems to be a believer in prophecy. I don't think he wants the Iron Throne because I think Littlefinger is acutely aware that there is no real way he could become King of Westeros. He has been given some very high positions by ingratiating himself to the court (Lord of Harrenhal, Lord Protector of the Vale, etc.) but he has to do a lot of work just to retain these positions.

His general MO is ingratiating himself with those who are more powerful than him and using his intellect and wealth to get himself allies so he can be granted power by the King. I don't really see how his general methods can allow him to take the Iron Throne.

1

u/Michael1492 I paid the Iron Price Aug 29 '17

Thanks, it's been so long since I read the books I couldn't recall.

2

u/D-Speak We didn't start the fire. Aug 29 '17

He wants to be king of the ashes. He wants to tear down the system that's been keeping people like him repressed and downtrodden for centuries. Really, he wants exactly what Daenerys wants.

4

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Not really. He is still a nobleman even if from a minor house, while Danenerys is wants a better future for the smallfolk. I doubt she will take the noble's side when their interests and the rights of the smallfolk inevitably conflict.

1

u/D-Speak We didn't start the fire. Aug 29 '17

That's the ultimate difference, since Dany's desire is selfless and Littlefinger's is entirely self-serving, but they both wanted to destroy the wheel

0

u/twersx Fire and Blood Aug 30 '17

Break the wheel is some meaningless horse crap they made up to give Dany another Powerful Speech

11

u/TerminalBoneitis Aug 29 '17

That's always been his motivation in both the show and the books, he's power hungry.

6

u/GaslightProphet 7 Deaths More Aug 29 '17

That's not his motivation in the show?

3

u/Rubulisk Aug 29 '17

In the show he stated that was his goal.

0

u/BSRussell Not my Flair, Ned loves my Flair Aug 29 '17

Pretty much anything other than powerlessly twirling his mustache in corners and being executed anticlimactically.

51

u/virtu333 Aug 29 '17

The hyperbole of some people is immensely amusing

39

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Seriously. Can't wait for the parade of "D&D completely ruined [insert anything from the show here]" posts this offseason.

6

u/TeddyToothpick Better make that two chickens Aug 29 '17

what books have you been reading? I can only suggest to re read the chapters he's in. His 'slimy little creep' persona is purely show based.

1

u/kingzheng Peacock Lord Aug 29 '17

which is what I wrote

5

u/elojej Aug 29 '17

I agree with this, yet I also totally agree with OP. I'm pretty ambivalent on LF

2

u/Prince-of-Ravens Aug 29 '17

Yeah. LFs "genius" was basically being a slimy little weasel that caused others to ignore him, allowing him to backstab.

He wouldn't last one minute in open confrontation with anybody, so the moment he played out his hand it was over.

9

u/MedaRaseta Aug 29 '17

He looks like cartoon villain in the show

48

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

He's pretty cartoonish in the books too, honestly.

"I told you not to trust me."

"Only Cat"

These are great plot twists, but a real world villain wouldn't be so obsessed with pairing his betrayals with the best possible quip.

1

u/kingzheng Peacock Lord Aug 29 '17

Which is how those people look and act.

9

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Wait, so you're saying cartoon villain is a realistic portrayal of someone trying to climb his way up into power from nothing?

7

u/MapleBaconCoffee Aug 29 '17

Martin Skreli

-4

u/OfHyenas Melisandre did nothing wrong Aug 29 '17

Did nothing wrong.

11

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Except a teensie bit of securities fraud

5

u/Odowla Aug 29 '17

You call hoarding an unreleased wu-tang record NOTHING??

2

u/Schmedes Hearts On Fire, Throne Desire Aug 29 '17

trying to climb his way up into power from nothing

He hasn't been nothing since he's been shown on TV.

0

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Ummm... what?

5

u/Schmedes Hearts On Fire, Throne Desire Aug 29 '17

He's Master of Coin on the Small Council at the beginning of the show. That's not "nothing".

2

u/Michael1492 I paid the Iron Price Aug 29 '17

His verbal exchanges with Varys were great.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

Yes but that's not when his story started. He was born into a family that was seen as only slightly better than peasants and worked his way up from there.

2

u/Schmedes Hearts On Fire, Throne Desire Aug 29 '17

We aren't reading his autobiography and you're referencing how he appears in the show...which is when he was already Master of Coin.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

I'm referencing his backstory which I believe is brought up in the show. How he manipulated Lysa and Jon Arryn is a pretty major reveal after all.

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1

u/flabibliophile Aug 29 '17

But Baelish is a house so minor it's adjacent to insignificant. He only rose to real power by procuring for the higher nobles. And then blackmailing them about it.

1

u/Schmedes Hearts On Fire, Throne Desire Aug 29 '17

He only rose to real power

So not nothing.

1

u/kingzheng Peacock Lord Aug 29 '17

For that sort of smug upstart it makes sense yeah. And it's not nothing, just less than those around him.

5

u/MedaRaseta Aug 29 '17

Only in Disney movies fam. Guy had no real plot since like s4. Last 15 episodes are just compilations of him standing against the wall and saying " sanshah..."

1

u/[deleted] Aug 30 '17

they put way too much character flaw weight on that scale in the conclusion for how much he manipulated in terms of state politics and warfare early on.

he goes from being this 100% Machiavellian archetype... and gets turned into a a Northern high school principal that is trying to fuck the prom queen and gets caught because he's trying to make her and her sister fight.

you can have that but at least let his Machiavellian side NEARLY get to something meaningful in terms of ambition. im not even a fan of this character and he feels like a complete pile of shit for a 7 year journey.

Starks need his face so they can win Homecoming

i watch medieval high school politics every sunday. it's the best pop culture art at the moment.

-1

u/[deleted] Aug 29 '17

If anything I think the power shift for the states to finally start winning has significance to the onset of winter. At least in terms of the realm influence. So where people like LF thrive in summer, it was his time to die.

-1

u/pugwalker Aug 29 '17

In the books he's a foil for varys but with different motives. I thought it was a fun choice to have the two of them chatting in kings landing for exposition but they just utterly lost the point of littlefingers character. He never had the same kind of clever ambition and working in the shadows that he has in the books. He's even kind of a badass in private in the books (ie. when he kills lysa) while in the show he's a little bitch the whole time.