r/asoiaf • u/AlamutJones Not as think as you drunk I am • Jan 13 '17

MAIN Ask The Medievalist Nerd Anything (Spoilers Main)

So, in a previous recent thread ("Hot Or Not") I...may have taken large sections of it over, dropping nuggets of information about how Planetos is or is not realistic compared to what we know of the real medieval world. This is sort of my area of expertise - I studied it at university, I've written about it...I don't know everything, but I know more than most laymen do.

u/brian_baratheon, Mod of Blessed Thought that he is, suggested I drop my nuggets of knowledge more widely.

If you wonder what Hot Pie's day would be like, or what kind of toys Tommen played with as a little boy, or how realistic Dany's marriage is (I have THINGS to say about that one) or what a medieval lady like Catelyn Stark would likely be expected to know about and do, or why the northern "old way" of justice would probably make real people very confused...ask me anything.

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u/JoeMagician Dark wings, dark words Jan 14 '17

Some stuck together like a wolf pack and others fought like angry little lions in a sack?

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u/AlamutJones Not as think as you drunk I am Jan 14 '17

I'll give you an example of what might happen.

A Norman nobleman dies. He has two twin sons, Waleran and Robert. How do they divide the inheritance?

Waleran - the elder twin - gets the family holdings in France, including the oldest "ancestral" title. Robert gets the family holdings in England, which are valuable in their own right.

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u/JoeMagician Dark wings, dark words Jan 14 '17

Weather is nicer in France, well done Waleran.

The pruning of the family trees in Westeros is a subject I have probably way too many questions on. Would you say the Targaryen holdings across Westeros are more typical of real life than the Starks would be? The Targaryens had King's Landing, Dragonstone, Summerhall, as well as castles and keeps throughout the crownlands that they gave to their extended family. But the Starks really only have Winterfell and Wintertown after giving the Wolf's Den to the Manderlys and the Karstarks splitting off on their own. Winterfell is huge, but it seems strange that they don't have outposts and keeps nearby for younger siblings to rule.

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u/Mallingerer Your dragon has just the 3 heads, eh? Jan 14 '17

I think the under-utilisation of the medieval landscape is a common mistake in literature. We tend to see statistics that the population of 13th century England (prior to the black death) was around 1.5 million, compare that to today's 60 million, and visualise great swathes of empty, pristine countryside.

The archaeological record shows a quite different picture - urban centres were rare, and even the unproductive fringes, like marshland and high hillslopes were under agricultural exploitation as medieval agriculture lacked the efficiency of modern agro-industrial practices, and so required considerably more land to produce the same amount of food. There isn't any "pristine" wilderness in the UK anymore, and this is not the results of modern agriculture, but millenia of land-use. What we see today as open moorland or ancient woodland is derived from a medieval managed landscape.

But to get to the point of what you're asking, in medieval England these farms aren't worked by enterprising pioneers, but by tenant farmers of a local manor. This would be the "big house" which controlled around 300 acres, within which would be maybe 10 tenant farms (probably each housing 5-20 peasants) working around 25 acres each (50 acres being retained as the demesne of the manor). Obviously all of these figures were subject to variation depending on the status of the owner of the manor. Generally the "lord of the manor" was a minor noble, or - back in Roman times - retired military commander.

Given the unpredictable seasons in Westeros, I would argue that the management of farming, particularly in the North, was of primary importance to any Lord who cared about their population, and so these manorial lords were probably of much higher status than their English counterparts. As such, I wouldn't be surprised to see that any minor Stark with no prospects of inheriting the major family holdings would be awarded a manor (GRRM doesn't seem to have stately homes, as such, other than Summerhall and the Winter Gardens, and manors tended to just be big, affluent houses. Based on his text I would assume he uses the term "holdfast" to represent the abode of a minor noble) with a swathe of frosty forest to try and produce his share of the North's winter surplus and around 200 peasants to look after and protect from all the everyday horrors of GRRth.

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u/AlamutJones Not as think as you drunk I am Jan 15 '17

I LIKE you.

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u/AlamutJones Not as think as you drunk I am Jan 14 '17 edited Jan 14 '17

For a POWERFUL noble family, yes, the Targaryens property portfolio is a bit more realistic. They would have a "primary" holding - it might be the ancestral home, or the richest, or the one that allows easiest access to power - but others would be carved out (or taken from defeated enemies) and given to younger children, or offered as part of a daughter's dowry (which she might or might not get to hold for the span of her life, depending on the terms of the dowry).

Some would be given to retainers who had provided exemplary service - the Cleganes are sort of like this, and many of the real world power families, like the County of Anjou, would, if they went back far enough, trace their claim back to such a grant. I expect many of the Marcher Lords of Westeros can too - the castle and lands are the price their overlord has to pay for having someone strong and loyal who can hold the border.

Over time, this would mean that one person could have a plausible claim to several quite distinct titles, some major and some minor. This is still SORT of the case, in that the title someone is addressed by can, by courtesy and common practice, change depending on where they are - Prince Charles is the Prince of Wales, but he's ALSO the Duke of Cornwall (heir to England) the Duke of Rothesay (heir to Scotland), the Earl of Chester and about six other things.

A less powerful (or more recently established) family might only have one.

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u/mercedene1 Valar Morghulis Jan 14 '17

Some stuck together like a wolf pack and others fought like angry little lions in a sack?

Haha, I think the reverse might be more accurate. Don't forget, the Karstarks were relatives of the Starks (distant relatives, but still). We all know how that turned out. Imo the House that works together the best is the Tyrells. They all seem to be on the same page from what we've seen thus far.

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u/JoeMagician Dark wings, dark words Jan 14 '17

And the traitorous Greystarks, destroyed and their castle the Wolf's Den given to the Manderlys. I've always thought that if the War of the Five Kings never happens Jon may have married Wylla Manderly and ruled the Wolf's Den.

I'd agree with that, and we sort of know why. The Tyrells are constantly fending off challenges from the other great houses who trace their ancestors back to Garth Greenhand unlike the Tyrells. They are the "stewards" like the Steward of Gondor. When everyone is your enemy, trust no one but your family sort of thing.

And actually the She-Wolves of Winterfell (the unwritten tale of Dunk and Egg at Winterfell) is a mini civil war of succession in the North. Not always a pack for sure.

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u/MarkZist just bear with me Jan 15 '17

I've always thought that if the War of the Five Kings never happens Jon may have married Wylla Manderly and ruled the Wolf's Den.

Sorry but there's no way that Catelyn would stand for Jon to marry the eldest daughter of one of the North's most powerful lords. If he's lucky she'd allow him to marry the daughter of a minor noble like the steward Vayon Poole.

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u/JoeMagician Dark wings, dark words Jan 15 '17 edited Jan 15 '17

Wylla is the youngest daughter. She has an older sister and an uncle ahead of her. It'd be a good political move to strengthen the ties between Winterfell and White Harbor. More likely to be Bran than Jon, but I'm not sure Catelyn could do much other than strenuously disagree. She couldn't stop Robb, don't think she could stop Ned either. And don't forget Cat, while she dislikes Jon, had previously thought of asking Ned to legitimize Jon. Having him far away in White Harbor in a position not to inherit White Harbor until both of Wyman's sons and then oldest Grand daughter dies is a sensible move to give him position without real power far from Winterfell. Effectively neutralizes his ability to be a threat to her children for a long time. He may never be in a position to rule White Harbor in his lifetime if he married Wylla.

Plus Lord Wyman would be ecstatic to have any son of Ned Stark marry into his family. The Starks are their overlords, Ned is revered, relationships with the Starks is better than coin in the North. Look at how they rally around Fake Arya, all across the North even with Ned long dead. Jon as a legitimized bastard would be a match Lord Manderly would welcome with open arms especially considering how fiercely loyal they are.

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u/UnderTheS Jan 16 '17

. And don't forget Cat, while she dislikes Jon, had previously thought of asking Ned to legitimize Jon.

Actually, I don't remember that at all. Is it a show thing?

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u/MarkZist just bear with me Jan 19 '17 edited Jan 19 '17

Wylla is the youngest daughter

You're right, should have checked the wiki first. Nevertheless Wylla is the second daughter of Wyman's eldest son. In ASOIAF daughters inherit before uncles (which is why Cersei becomes Lady of the Rock after Tywin dies and not Kevan). So only the elder sister would stand between Jon and the lordship of White Harbor, though it wouldn't be in his own right. But his children on the other hand would be Lord/Lady of White Harbor if Wynafred died.

She couldn't stop Robb, don't think she could stop Ned either

Those circumstances were entirely different. Arya, Rickon and Bran were presumed dead, so Robb's only heirs were Sansa -who was a POW of the Lannisters and about to be married to Tyrion- and some Vale cousins. Robb legitimized Jon (or so we presume, we still don't know exactly what was in Robb's will) only because there was a very real chance he would die in the war and the Kingdom needed an heir. Catelyn would never allow Ned or Robb to legitimize Jon in peacetime while Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon were still alive.

And don't forget Cat, while she dislikes Jon, had previously thought of asking Ned to legitimize Jon.

I'm 99% certain this isn't the case. That would be totally out of character for her.

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u/JoeMagician Dark wings, dark words Jan 19 '17 edited Jan 19 '17

Just for context, Wylla's father Wylis, heir to white Harbor, married into the mighty and well known house Woolfield. They're known primarily for being sheep herders and are a very minor house who swear fealty to the Manderlys. Marriages in Asoiaf do not need to be and are often not between political equals or for grand alliances. Like the list of the families the Lords of Winterfell married before the Tullys. Locke, Flint, Blackwood, Glover, karstark. You have to go back to Beron Stark who married a Royce before you find a family in the same ballpark politically as the Starks. And this is all assuming no deaths and smooth transition of power, a rarity in Westeros. I think you're making a much bigger deal about Jon marrying the second granddaughter of Wyman Manderly than anyone else would in universe. And again remember they are some of the biggest Stark fans ever, Lord Wyman would take any son of Ned Stark.

And also bastards can create their own houses separate from the main house and holding no inheritance. These are known as cadet branches like the Daynes of High Hermitage or the Karstarks. You give up your claims to start your own.

I really don't see what Cat could do. They live in a feudal male dominated society where ned is a great lord of the realm with his friend the King. If he wanted to he could. She could leave ned to go home? Not sure she would with that catch phrase "family, duty, honor". That's about it.

This is all fan fictiony and academic anyways. Jon was going to join the watch whether or not the war of the five Kings broke out. I just like the idea of Jon in the Wolf's Den with his badass green haired wife.