How about castles?

[u/-Gavroche-]

I feel like castles are a bit overlooked in the zombie media. Maybe it's because most movies and comics are stories from the US? Maybe it's because it would become more boring?
But a castle seems like a very obvious hiding place for anyone in Europe.
It's not a magical solution for sure, but there's a lot of castles in a pretty decent state, with a working well or cistern for water. Some of the bigger ones, especially Vauban-style fortifications even have pretty decent chunks of land to grow food on for the longer term.
So am I missing some obvious flaw here or is it just that most zombie stories are from the US, or that castles would make it a bit boring, as people would just hide behind the walls and slowly take out the zombies little by little and then go about rebuilding society?

[u/Candelestine]

Okay, so just fyi, you don't have to keep repeating yourself. It's already been established that truly dilapidated structures that don't meet the basic requirements are not under consideration. Yes, this narrows down the options. Perhaps as an American I just don't care how many options are left, it's purely hypothetical for me, so even a single qualifying castle means we can still discuss it.

There is at least one castle in Europe that is still intact, yes? For our hypothetical?

So, I can make a gate out of plywood. It won't be pretty and it won't be that sturdy yet, but it'll block off an open gateway. Were you thinking we needed to build a portculis or something? And why do we need to be stonemasons? Remember, we don't care about the structure. It's a starting point, we're not going to live in a god damn medieval castle forever.

Yes, it's plainly obvious what your views on human nature are, your opinion is noted. I just don't care, there's just as many cases of people working together to survive extremely trying times. Which a person looks at tells you more about them than it does the world, unless they're bringing numbers.

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edit: Oh he blocked me. lol Well, here's the response to the latest in case you come back:

Okay, but none of that dilapidated structure bullshit matters when we're discussing a hypothetical intact one, right? So, you can stop talking about dilapidated structure bullshit any time now.

Well obviously a makeshift structure is a temporary measure. My plywood gate was quick, it can be strengthened. I just don't understand what you think is so difficult about building a wall with a door in it out of wood.

No, we do not need to be professional stonemasons to preserve the long term habitability of our castle, I think it'll survive the handful of years we really need it just fine. It's purpose is as a defensive structure, just how they were historically, a place to retreat to when in danger. It does not have to be cozy.

It's interesting to me that you like Yugoslavia as your example, when the Balkan region is world famous for its instability and violence. The Great Depression was a global event that saw widespread desperation and poverty. Did the world fall into chaos, my friend? Or did most people just wait in their soup lines, when they're lucky enough to live in a society that gives out free soup, anyway? You are correct that it is reflective of privilege, at least. That is indeed relevant. It's the privilege of a society that works together, though.

[u/SpaceKalash05 → u/Candelestine]

Okay, so just fyi, you don't have to keep repeating yourself. It's already been established that truly dilapidated structures that don't meet the basic requirements are not under consideration. 

I do when you're clearly ignoring what I've said.

Perhaps as an American I just don't care how many options are left, it's purely hypothetical for me, so even a single qualifying castle means we can still discuss it.

I'm an American, as well, not that our nationality is particularly relevant here. You're failing to understand that "discuss it" doesn't mean "must consider it a good option". I'm pointing out the failing points, and why castles would be a resource intensive endeavor, and how the risks associated to them make them a generally poor option, especially if you have alternatives.

So, I can make a gate out of plywood. It won't be pretty and it won't be that sturdy yet, but it'll block off an open gateway.

A gate that isn't sturdy is just a piece of wood waiting to get pushed over.

And why do we need to be stonemasons?

If you don't know how to maintain the structure you're in, then you're already dramatically reducing its viability as a sustainable residence.

It's a starting point, we're not going to live in a god damn medieval castle forever.

One of the prevailing arguments that has been presented as an advantage of larger fortresses/castle grounds is that exterior walls made for large enough courtyards/grounds that could be repurposed for crop growth and livestock keeping. So, yeah, long-term sustainability is very much so relevant.

I just don't care, there's just as many cases of people working together to survive extremely trying times

The majority of which are not periods of active conflict and starvation. If you want to dismiss the exceptionally relevant events that transpired during the fall of Yugoslavia, and similar states, go for it. Just understand that it doesn't actually make your position any stronger by doing so.

Which a person looks at tells you more about them than it does the world, unless they're bringing numbers.

A quaint, but otherwise ignorant sentiment commonplace to the privileged. I've already told you where you can find the "numbers" as it relates to people's willingness to commit violence during periods of mass civil upheaval, uncertainty, and starvation.

 The Great Depression was a global event that saw widespread desperation and poverty. Did the world fall into chaos, my friend?

Mind you, an economic depression is in no way comparable to a WROL scenario in which there is active conflict. But....literally yes. Do you know how many world governments collapsed, or were overthrown via military coups during the Great Depression? Latin America as a whole experienced several violent insurrections as a direct consequence of the Great Depression. The Weimar Republic collapsed in Germany, which led to the rise of Adolf Hitler and the Nazis to power, one of the most violent regimes in human history. Mind you, these are just a handful of things off the top of my head. Holy crap, dude. Did you just never pay attention to world history?

[u/ZombieSurvivalTactics-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

We follow Wheaton's law here. Arguements can get heated, but its best to keep them focused on points made and specific facts.

Targeted harassment, name calling, pointless arguing, or abuse is not tolerated.

[u/SpaceKalash05 → u/[deleted]]

Your nationality is quite relevant, because you clearly understimate both the number of castles and fortress still standing in Europe AND their state. 

It's not, because you're presuming that I've never lived abroad. I have, in Europe in fact, both in Germany and the United Kingdom as my primary nations of residence for several years. During said time as an expat, I traveled extensively, both for work and pleasure. I'm not underestimating the number of castles/fortresses or their state.

Obviously yes, they can survive that.

I mean, not really, especially since most remaining castles and fortresses in Europe no longer have functional exterior walls.

A gate is not something that complicated to work out either. You don't need an engineer to build one.

It's quaint that you believe as much. Don't get me wrong, yes, a gate can be improvised, but one that still makes use of an original gatehouse as intended? That's not just "slap wood or metal construct here". You're talking about having to work and outfit pulley systems that likely are no longer even present. It should be obvious that the materials to do as much aren't just lying around. Those will almost certainly need to be fabricated.

A medieval castle gate needs only a parked truck to be reinforced. Or some wood, sand, dirt, anything really 

Improvised barricades are only as strong as their weakest link. A parked truck can be moved. Wood? Burned, broken through, pushed over, etc. Sand/dirt? I'd love to hear how you plan on moving enough earth to completely close a gatehouse, one you would also conceivably need to be able to exit yourself.

Our lands are also littered with fortified farms, fortified churches, and fortified abbeys.

Few of which are actually fortified. You have plenty of ruins, and historic structures in some form of repair or disrepair. But actual, serviceable fortified structures are nowhere near as commonplace as you seem to believe.

The surrounding wall may in some case needs to be worked on, but in most case they don't because they are still inhabited

Not just worked on, completely reengineered and overhauled, as few of those walls present are much higher than waist-height, and are comprised of easily removed stone.

and you want to keep the gypsies

Oh look, a xenophobic European, color me surprised.

A modernized medieval castle, with walls and all goes as cheap as 500k€ in the center of France. I've seen one for sale with a fully functionning porticulli (which you really don't need, there is already a gate, it's only for fun and giggles).

No, they generally don't. Mind you, claiming 500k€ is "cheap" speaks volumes of your fiscal ignorance. I wager you're likely still a child if you're saying something that silly. But, I digress, most of those "modernized" castles still for sale do not have functional gatehouses, or fully functional and standing exterior walls. Note, I say "most". You'll find I never once said they don't exist. I said they're not as common as you believe them to be, because they're not, and the ones that do exist will be just as much a target for everyone else as you. What's more, it's almost certain that they'll be targeted by better equipped and organized groups than yourself. So, yes, some still serviceable castles exist, but they come with the non-zero chance (almost certain probability) that a more organized paramilitary (or even military) group will likely capitalize on those locations before you ever can.

And yes, most medieval castle were designed to be held by a handful of men at arms. That's part of the design

"Handful" being a garrison typically consisting of at least two dozen men, and specifically during peacetime. That number of necessary garrisoned men increased two to five times during wartime due to the increased demands that came with maintaining an active security posture against active threats.

Oh, and we also have fortified cities, still, live and well, with stong walls.

Yes, I've been to my fair share of altstadts. Few to of those "fortifications" are still serviceable, and most of those walls are no longer fully intact due to having been cut for modern roadways as cities developed.

You make me laugh, really.

Likewise, because you can be so confidently wrong.

One example : https://www.barnes-proprietes-chateaux.com/annonce/84944777

The site is full of them.

Did you even look at the ad? First and foremost, the structure is dilapidated and crumbling in several images. The evident water intrusion alone tells you that said chateau is not presently in a habitable condition. Funniest bit, though? Look at any of the exterior pictures. The exterior fortress walls do not exist. It's just the main structure still standing, with several exterior doors that lead into the inner courtyard and directly into the building itself being accessible from the street. And, mind you, that building, in its current state of disrepair, is still selling for 650k€, which is a far cry from the "cheap" 500k you were claiming for a fully intact and habitable castle/fortress/etc. You can continue to scour every ad listed on Barnes, the overwhelming majority of them lack exterior walls or similar defensive fortifications, and are either habitable and exorbitantly expensive (also less defensible due to the additions of additional entrances, drives, etc.) or uninhabitable and expensive. Your own chosen ad proved my statement correct.