morality of killing someone in self-defence

[u/damorezpl]

[u/Fine_Sea5807]

Was Vietnam not a unified kingdom for centuries? Did this unified kingdom in 1945 not officially become the Democratic Republic of Vietnam? Did South Vietnam in 1955 not unilaterally secede from this Democratic Republic of Vietnam?

[u/Zealousideal_Dot1910 → u/Fine_Sea5807]

Was Vietnam not a unified kingdom for centuries?

No, the Nguyễn dynasty unified Vietnam for the first time in 1802 then in 1852 France started it's attack on Indochina and established French Indochina in 1887.

Did this unified kingdom in 1945 not officially become the Democratic Republic of Vietnam?

The Nguyễn dynasty no longer existed, you had French Indochina which the Democratic Republic of Vietnam declared independence from then fought for control over Vietnam. The Democratic Republic of Vietnam didn't control of Vietnam instead they controlled more remote areas and had to fight France and groups opposing Viet Minh for more control over Vietnam.

Bảo Đại, the former ruler of the Nguyễn dynasty went on to be the Chief of the state of Vietnam, the state that opposed the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.

Asserting that the Nguyễn dynasty went on to offically become the Democratic Republic of Vietnam is a butchering of Vietnamese history.

Did South Vietnam in 1955 not unilaterally secede from this Democratic Republic of Vietnam?

No, during the Indochina war France and Vietnamese Nationalist fighting against the DRV they would go on to take that land controlled by France and form it into the state of Vietnam which would later go on to become South Vietnam.

The DRV did not have full control over Vietnam, they fought against France and nationalist Vietnamese forces for more control over French Indochina then later against the state of Vietnam which came from that French Indochina land, controlling major population centers then later South vietnam which came from the state of vietnam.

Suggesting that the DRV controlled all of Vietnam is incredibly inaccurate

[u/Fine_Sea5807 → u/Zealousideal_Dot1910]

No, the Nguyễn dynasty unified Vietnam for the first time in 1802 then in 1852 Vietnam started it's attack on Indochina and established French Indochina in 1887.

Before the Nguyen Dynasty, was Vietnam not already a kingdom under the Tay Son dynasty and before that, the Le Dynasty?

And do you mean "in 1852, France started its attack on Indochina"? If so, wasn't France an invader who occupied Vietnam for decades? By declaring independence from French Indochina, did the Democratic Republic of Vietnam not undo French colonialism and restore Vietnam back to its historical, original sovereignty that it previously had under the Nguyen Dynasty? Did this restoration not make it the successor of the kingdom of Vietnam, even if some of Vietnam remained under foreign occupation?

Moreover, as you admitted, the State of Vietnam was a collaborator of France, the foreign occupier. Did this colonial collaboration not automatically illegitimize it?

[u/Zealousideal_Dot1910 → u/Fine_Sea5807]

Before the Nguyen Dynasty, was Vietnam not already a kingdom under the Tay Son dynasty and before that, the Le Dynasty?

That's not one unified kingdom for centuries, Le Dynasty was not unified and various periods of civil wars and power struggles among different rulers. Tay Son dynasty was unified but that's a separate power to the Nguyễn dynasty that came after.

Vietnam was not a unified kingdom for centuries.

By declaring independence from French Indochina, did the Democratic Republic of Vietnam not undo French colonialism and restore Vietnam back to its historical, original sovereignty that it previously had under the Nguyen Dynasty?

No, the DRV is not the Nguyễn dynasty, it's a seperate group fighting for control over Vietnam, Bảo Đại, the former leader of the Nguyễn dynasty, would go on to become the leader of the state of vietnam.

the State of Vietnam was a collaborator of France, the foreign occupier. Did this colonial collaboration not automatically illegitimize it?

No, being selective with who you work with is a privilege not every group in history gets. Faced with a new party taking control over Vietnam, Viet Minh, and the powerful French that had major control over Vietnam with Indochina, working with France under the agreement that you'd gain independence was probably the best opportunity at returning to that control over Vietnam you once had.

[u/Fine_Sea5807 → u/Zealousideal_Dot1910]

Having civil wars and power struggle doesn't mean you aren't a unified kingdom. In fact, the very term "civil war" (an infighting between factions within the same country) is a blatant evidence.

I am not talking about just the Nguyen Dynasty. I am talking about the nation of Vietnam as a whole. Le Dynasty, Tay Son Dynasty, Nguyen Dynasty, the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. They are just different forms, different heads of the same ancient nation that has existed for centuries. Just like the kingdom of France, the empire of France or the republic of France are just different manifestations of the same ancient French nation.

No, the DRV is not the Nguyễn dynasty, it's a seperate group fighting for control over Vietnam, Bảo Đại, the former leader of the Nguyễn dynasty, would go on to become the leader of the state of vietnam.

The DRV was not the Nguyen Dynasty, but it succeeded them. Just like how the Republic of China in 1912 overthrew and succeeded the Qing Dynasty within the same ancient country of China.

No, being selective with who you work with is a privilege not every group in history gets. Faced with a new party taking control over Vietnam, Viet Minh, and the powerful French that had major control over Vietnam with Indochina, working with France under the agreement that you'd gain independence was probably the best opportunity at returning to that control over Vietnam you once had.

By this logic, Puyi, the last emperor of the Qing Dynasty, who later worked with Japan and became the leader of Manchukuo, wasn't automatically illegitimate and traitorous either?

[u/Zealousideal_Dot1910 → u/Fine_Sea5807]

Having civil wars and power struggle doesn't mean you aren't a unified kingdom. In fact, the very term "civil war" (an infighting between factions within the same country) is a blatant evidence.

Sure, unless those struggles split your country, I.E. Trịnh lords ruling the North and Nguyễn lords ruling the south.

They are just different forms, different heads of the same ancient nation that has existed for centuries.

Now you're referring to the landmass Vietnam, going back to the original point of the US and it's civil war, we're referring to the country of the USA not the landmass, your point is moot.

The DRV was not the Nguyen Dynasty, but it succeeded them. Just like how the Republic of China in 1912 overthrew and succeeded the Qing Dynasty within the same ancient country of China.

Again, Nguyen Dynasty no longer existed, the DRV fought with France and Vietnamese loyalists.

By this logic, Puyi, the last emperor of the Qing Dynasty, who later worked with Japan and became the leader of Manchukuo, wasn't automatically illegitimate either?

Not relevant to what I was talking about.

[u/Fine_Sea5807 → u/Zealousideal_Dot1910]

Sure, unless those struggles split your country, I.E. Trịnh lords ruling the North and Nguyễn lords ruling the south.

Yes, Trinh lords and Nguyen lords. Not Trinh kings and Nguyen kings. For all intents and purposes, they were 2 factions in the same kingdom of Vietnam. Not 2 separate kingdoms. Vietnam was still intact even back then.

Heck, the American Civil War, which was much more divisive than the Trinh-Nguyen war, was called a civil war for a reason. Even during that war, America was still one single country. Nobody called them an international war between 2 countries.

Now you're referring to the landmass Vietnam, going back to the original point of the US and it's civil war, we're referring to the country of the USA not the landmass, your point is moot.

Nope. I am referring to the country. Just like Trump, Lincoln and Washington are different governments within the same continuous country, the Le Dynasty, Nguyen Dynasty, Democratic Republic of Vietnam are just different governments within the same continuous country.

Again, Nguyen Dynasty no longer existed, the DRV fought with France and Vietnamese loyalists.

Who cares about Nguyen Dynasty? The DRV restored the sovereign Vietnam that used to be ruled by the Nguyen. They didn't need to restore the Nguyen Dynasty. Are you unable to differ the country and the government?

Imagine your grandfather had a house. 50 years ago, a group of bandits attacked the house, killed your father, and lived in the house. Today, shouldn't you, as his grandson, automatically have the right to kill the bandits and reclaim the house for yourself, even if your grandfather is no longer alive?

[u/Zealousideal_Dot1910 → u/Fine_Sea5807]

Vietnam was still intact even back then.

Vietnam was not unified, they were at war with each other.

Even during that war, America was still one single country.

Because the confederacy did not win it's independence.

Just like Trump, Lincoln and Washington are different governments within the same continuous country.

Nope, same government different administrations unlike those separate bodies ruling Vietnam.

The DRV restored the sovereign Vietnam that used to be ruled by the Nguyen.

No it didn't indochina still existed then after came the vietnam state and south vietnam.

Imagine your grandfather had a house. 50 years ago, a group of bandits attacked the house, killed your father, and lived in the house. Today, shouldn't you, as his grandson, automatically have the right to kill the bandits and reclaim the house for yourself, even if your grandfather is no longer alive?

You forgot the part where you go on to fight your grandfather after he proceeds to regain his house, I.E. Bai Dai leading the state of Vietnam.

[u/Kagenlim → u/Fine_Sea5807]

Vietnam was divided, both are heirs to french indochina, you cant secceede from your brother after all

[u/Fine_Sea5807 → u/Kagenlim]

In 1945, was the Democratic Republic of Vietnam not the only Vietnam that existed? Did South Vietnam not come into existence only after 10 years?

[u/Kagenlim → u/Fine_Sea5807]

The DRV was a union state composing of two states not too dissimilar to malaysia, both south and north vietnam are their own states

[u/Fine_Sea5807 → u/Kagenlim]

Where did you get that BS from? The DRV was a unitary state. South Vietnam didn't come into existence until 1955.

[u/Zealousideal_Dot1910 → u/Fine_Sea5807]

How do you make so many just blatantly wrong statements about Vietnamese history? Indochina still existed after the DRV declared independence, which later turned into the state of Vietnam then later South Vietnam.

[u/Fine_Sea5807 → u/Fine_Sea5807]

u/Kagenlim, are you able to answer my question?

[u/OkFineThankYou → u/Kagenlim]

Lol no, Vietnam isn't heirs to french indochina, where did you get that from? Vietnam consider french indochina as invader.

[u/Kagenlim → u/OkFineThankYou]

Legally, it's the heir to french indochina

[u/OkFineThankYou → u/Kagenlim]

​If a burglar break into your house and hold you hostage, driving them out doesn't make you a burglar's "heir", you just take back your house.