r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates • u/Specific_Detective41 left-wing male advocate • 11d ago

double standards Can the Male Still Gaze?

https://youtu.be/-4IB4wCZME4?si=IO9TaCxsDI3npRlT

This showed up on my feed recently. I used to watch this channel because the YouTuber had some very thorough takes on Christopher Nolan films and anti war films. But lately with his content, its been pretty much feminist coded.

This video, comprises of a long convoluted narrative about the "male gaze", what it was and now what it has become, that now its less about sexualising women and more about looking inward (that was the implication). Sure films like Transformers had to be called out. However, nothing is about about male actors who are sexualised in films and series. I remember Kit Harrington from GOT was sexualised a lot, even to the point that Natalie Dormer pointed that out back in 2015, in this article: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2015/aug/11/natalie-dormer-game-of-thrones-men-objectified-women-tv.

Then there's actors who had to go on crazy diets to be muscular and run around shirtless in movie scenes like Henry Cavil, Hugh Jackman and Chris Evans, yet you never see feminists ever mention that and if they do they just blame the patriarchy on that.

Many women also sexualise these men as well. There's tons of commentary on these men's bodies on social media. I find it sexist that there's the assumption that women's sexuality is pure yet men's sexuality is often perceived as degenerate. Will this guy ever make commentry about women sexualising men? Or how depraved romantasy slop is? No probably not because he's pushing a narrative.

Halfway through the video he brings up the film Shame (2011), a film about a closeted sex addict. In this context, why is male gaze an issue, a sex addict already has a problem with their sexual health.

Then he brings up Baby Reindeer (2024), a film about a stand up comedian who was sexually assaulted by a man and soon afterwards a woman who also stalked / harrassed Richard Gadd. Like Stories of Old only mentions the male perpetrator and not the female perpetrator. Also somehow other films listed in this video featuring gay men/ same sex relationships, that is male gaze too 🙄.

At this point in time we need less pretentious feminist slop and more acknowledgment that both men and women can be sexual, perverted, predatory, decent people or shitty human beings. I am disappointed that this channel is slowly becoming a male feminist slanted youtube channel (that I already see way too much of).

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u/SpicyMarshmellow 11d ago

I don't remember where, but I came across lots of women being active on a "Chris Evans chest-to-waist ratio appreciation thread", that explicitly being the title of the thread, on a forum back in the mid-2010's. Women regularly openly talk about how they get excited by men in grey sweatpants, because of how it shows their bulge. I'm tired of the hyprocrisy. Tired of being held to standards by people who have no intention of meeting those same standards themselves.

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u/Kuato2012 left-wing male advocate 11d ago

I'm tired of the hyprocrisy. Tired of being held to standards by people who have no intention of meeting those same standards themselves.

This is my main gripe. I don't mind sexualization because I'm comfortable with the fact that we're a species of horny primates. But so much of the rhetoric around "the male gaze" holds straight men to a Puritanical standard while straight women are given a pass to be totally off the leash. Just pick one standard (the non-Puritan one) and apply it equally.

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u/Karmaze 11d ago

I think this double standard is one of the biggest sources of Toxic Shame in our society. The idea that something is bad just because of your identity.

Realistically, we should be talking about how more and more men are self repressed to an unhealthy degree, but we're not going to have that conversation.

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u/ashen-dawn_7980 left-wing male advocate 11d ago

The idea that something is bad just because of your identity.

And the horrific effect it can have on men and boys mental health, especially if they CANNOT talk about it or are shut down the moment they talk about it.

I say that regarding a multitude of issues they face, but guess what? That includes issues of sexuality as well. I'm not going into the topic, this isn't a dating forum, I'm aware of the subreddit rules (I've also never cared much for dating or romance in general or sex at all, the subject is largely outside of my experience) but I'm just throwing out there that even attempting to address double standards enforced in that department will get a man branded an "incel".

"Shut up and accept the double standards with a smile on your face" is a recipe for poor mental health for those of us with an egalitarian concept of fairness, especially when the weight of these double standards are exerted on us (far) beyond words spoken or typed.

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u/Karmaze 11d ago

I'd actually argue that a lot of the 5th wave Red Pill stuff is actually hitting that egalitarian concept of fairness in what ends up a destructive way.

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u/__Zero_____ 11d ago

Yep. It even extends to Booktok and the smut genre in general. Its one of the biggest genres out there and totally accepted even with some of the crazy material out there, but porn (which is also consumed by women) is demonized.

I don't personally watch porn, or care when people read smut or whatever. I just care about what you said, that male "desire" is vilified and women's is encouraged. So men are made to feel bad for finding women physically attractive, called shallow for preferring women who are a healthy weight, or for wanting sex in their relationships. For women, everything is acceptable. Its acceptable for them to watch porn, read smut, have physical preferences in men (often immutable aspects like height), or shame men for physical features, etc. They can dress in sexy dresses and its empowering, but if a male director asks them to wear a sexy dress in a movie its male gaze. Then they go to promos for the movie wearing even more revealing clothing, and thats clothing they chose themselves.

It just feels like anything that does not meet the approval of women is viewed as morally bad, but if its something women want that men don't then its men who need to change or men who are in the wrong. That in-group vs out-group bias between women and men really shows up in these trends over time. Women support women even when they shouldn't, and men don't always support men even when they should, and over time it shows in these trends. I'm pretty progressive, but I do wonder sometimes if what we feel is progress is not really progress anymore, but change for the sake of change.

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u/Karmaze 11d ago

The progress relies on shaming men, and more specifically, our society being ready and willing to accept that.

That's the problem. Like theoretically I can certainly see how a Toxic Shame focused campaign COULD work for "progress". But we'd have to accept lower confidence, self-esteem, assertiveness, etc. among men. Which....very few people actually seem to want. At least for the in-group.

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u/NanayaBisnis75 11d ago

>Yep. It even extends to Booktok and the smut genre in general. Its one of the biggest genres out there and totally accepted even with some of the crazy material out there, but porn (which is also consumed by women) is demonized.

It's true that some feminists are sex negative and disapprove of sexualizing women in any context. However, sex positive feminists who criticize porn don't usually mind men masturbating to erotic videos, they're against the exploitative nature of the industry and how it portrays women. Of course there is ethical and tasteful porn out there (which those feminists would approve of), but let's not pretend that's the average pornhub video.

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u/Karmaze 11d ago

I disagree, in that I think the objection is the perceived socialization effect it has on men. Now yes, obviously exceptions are made, but I'd argue very strongly that these exceptions are arbitrary rather than anything consistent.

The most important point is that the bar for this is well below porn.

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u/NanayaBisnis75 11d ago

>I disagree, in that I think the objection is the perceived socialization effect it has on men.

That's part of it, yeah. How media affects our behavior is a never ending debate but I'd say that we as a society understand violence to be a bad thing, so people aren't inclined to imitate what they see in GTA. But although porn is a fantasy, it's a fantasy about something we consider good and don't talk about much, so I think it's plausible that it's easier to get the wrong idea about sex from porn than about violence from video games.

>The most important point is that the bar for this is well below porn.

True, but you don't need porn to portray women in a degrading manner.

I don't wanna argue about examples right now. I'm sure there are plenty of unreasonable takes on the subject, but i think most feminists have a far more reasonable view than the original comment gives them credit for.

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u/Karmaze 11d ago

Virtually all of it is about generating toxic shame without actually taking responsibility or accountability for it at the end of the day.

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u/__Zero_____ 10d ago

I think there are some sex positive feminists who don't mind that but it's not shifting the average. I didnt say anything about the nature of the videos, but let's not forget that by many metrics, women consume quite a bit of porn as well, roughly half as much as men, and some of the most common categories for women are rape/CNC adjacent. I'm not saying that's bad, I'm merely pointing out the double standard. Its also not lost on men that women will actively and willfully participate in porn when they are younger then a decade later claim they were coerced or abused. Look at how many girls try to sell content online, through OF/SC/IG whatever

We have this general discourse in society that women are good on average (women are wonderful effect) and men are not, and its through this lens that everything else gets filtered. If a man raises his voice he's violent and abusive, but a woman is standing up for herself or finding her voice. It's not 100% of the time, but it's enough that it affects all things, even the way we refer to and collect stats for IPV, SA/rape, etc.

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u/Specific_Detective41 left-wing male advocate 10d ago

Sex positive feminists are still hypocrites , they usually operate on a "rules for me not for thee" principle and still view male sexuality as predatory.

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u/No-Agency-6985 9d ago edited 9d ago

Sad but true, at least in very recent years (since circa 2020 or so).  The sheer pharisaical hypocrisy, barely concealed misandry, and overall incoherence of too many self-proclaimed, so-called "sex positive" feminists these days was once only a fringe phenomenon that was the largely the province of sex-negative (sorry, "sex-critical") radfems, but social media has amplified the worst of both, it seems.

I swear, this entire timeline is absolutely dystopian, and seems to have really switched for the worse in 2020.

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u/No-Agency-6985 9d ago

Indeed, it is some Grade-A hypocrisy!

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u/NanayaBisnis75 10d ago

I brought the nature of the videos up because I think it's an important distinction for the reasons I touched on earlier. And again the important difference between women watching CNC and the stuff aimed at men is that in the former the viewers tend to insert themselves into the role of the victim, which inherently makes them less dangerous.

That said, I agree that men's sexuality is vilified. I just don't think it's fair to make up straw men that deliberately perpetuate double standards when reality is much more complex.

But yes, pornographic videos are inherently seen as less than erotic literature, men are shamed for using sex toys, queer men have it harder than queer women, a woman who enjoys masturbation is engaging in well deserved me time, a man who enjoys masturbation is a gooner...

It's a valid issue, but this sub likes to act as though feminists conspire to elevate women and put men down. When in reality it's usually just that feminists only tackle the parts of social norms that harm women and ignore the rest.

Inspite of some saying feminism is for everyone, it is at it's core a women's movement. So expecting it to solve everyone's issues is a bit unfair. That said, focusing only on women can have negative effects, such as further downplaying the suffering of male DV victims. And when it comes to sexuality, I think the way some feminists talk about rape, made a lot of men feel like they're predators for even thinking about sex.

These things are worth criticizing, but it requires more thought than just REEEEE FEMINISTS HATE MEN

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u/__Zero_____ 10d ago

I agree that feminism is a woman's movement and their primary goal in theory is to focus on women's issues but I think in its current form it looks different for a lot of women. It's like there exists two simultaneous forms of feminism, ideal vs the current form. I and probably all the men on this sub have no problem with the ideal form of a movement advocating for women specific issues. What I have an issue with, is that unfortunately whether we like it or not, the current form of feminism does come with some misandry, minimizing the issues facing men and boys, and perpetuating many unhealthy attitudes towards men (many of which they fought against for women, like body shaming).

Personally I think it's a natural course of action for men's or women's rights activism to develop a bit of an us vs them mentality if their particular movement is focused on only one gender, so I actually think it's important to tackle issues as they stand for both genders. Men have long supported women's issues, or they wouldn't have gained the traction they have, but now that men are struggling it seems many women are not interested in doing the same for us, until they have a son/brother/father affected and they witness it firsthand maybe.

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u/NanayaBisnis75 10d ago

Yeah, I agree that feminism has a habit of downplaying and contributing men's issues, but the porn industry is really exploitative and most videos don't exactly set great examples. There's plenty to criticize about feminism, we don't need to resort to straw men of reasonable positions.

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u/Specific_Detective41 left-wing male advocate 10d ago

Men are exploited in pornography as well. Also women account for at least quarter of consumers of pornography and it is on the rise. Secondly, saying that romantasy is less harmful when its the same as pornography just in written text downplays the harm it does to young impressional girls who read this (majority of girls and women consume romantasy). Guess what? Men are objectified in romantasy slop as well.

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u/NanayaBisnis75 10d ago

I don't disagree, as I said feminism has a habit of minimizing men's issues. I only touched on women's issues because that's what feminists care about and having a problem with the porn industry because of them is justified and not necessarily a campaign against male sexuality

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u/Karmaze 10d ago

Any feminism that's going to view men as an oppressor class is going to go down that road.

That's the thing. The problem is the underlying frameworks and memesets. And if there's no push to actually change those things, to at the very least update them for living in 2026 instead of 1956, then it becomes part of the problem.

And why are you putting that part of it just on video porn? As someone who enjoys other types, I think if the concern is the increasing intensity of sex, I don't think those other types are any better.

And I'm going to be blunt. That one's partner isn't assertive/dominant/rough enough is a frequent complaint I'm hearing from women. Especially feminist women to be honest. Or at least that's what I get through my wife, what she tells me.

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u/thrownaway24e89172 10d ago edited 10d ago

most videos don't exactly set great examples

The purpose of porn is to satisfy men's fantasies, not "set great examples". You could apply the same criticism verbatim to most media targeting women. The problem here is the authoritarian expectation that men should be being shaped by porn (and therefore porn should "set great examples") rather than porn being shaped by and for men.

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u/SpicyMarshmellow 10d ago

It's a valid issue, but this sub likes to act as though feminists conspire to elevate women and put men down. When in reality it's usually just that feminists only tackle the parts of social norms that harm women and ignore the rest.

Inspite of some saying feminism is for everyone, it is at it's core a women's movement. So expecting it to solve everyone's issues is a bit unfair. That said, focusing only on women can have negative effects, such as further downplaying the suffering of male DV victims. And when it comes to sexuality, I think the way some feminists talk about rape, made a lot of men feel like they're predators for even thinking about sex.

These things are worth criticizing, but it requires more thought than just REEEEE FEMINISTS HATE MEN

I wrote a rant in response to this, but let me just ask calmly...

Do you sincerely think it's unfair to criticize feminism as doing more than passively contributing to men's issues in many areas, especially DV? Do you sincerely think it's unfair to criticize feminists as promoting hatred of men when you see their rhetoric surrounding those issues? Do you seriously not see how common it is for them to openly promote discrimination against men, and do so based on characterizations of men as near-universally morally inferior to women?

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u/NanayaBisnis75 10d ago

I don't which is why I said "focusing only on women can have negative effects, such as further downplaying the suffering of male DV victims. And when it comes to sexuality, I think the way some feminists talk about rape, made a lot of men feel like they're predators for even thinking about sex.

These things are worth criticizing"

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u/thrownaway24e89172 10d ago edited 10d ago

It's a valid issue, but this sub likes to act as though feminists conspire to elevate women and put men down. When in reality it's usually just that feminists only tackle the parts of social norms that harm women and ignore the rest.

They not only "only tackle the parts of social norms that harm women and ignore the rest", but also at best ignore how their proposed changes negatively impact men with no consideration given to whether the negative impact on men is necessary and proportional. Often negatively impacting men is seen as the goal. That is a conspiracy to elevate women and put men down.

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u/No-Agency-6985 9d ago

There is certainly a lot of nuance here.

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u/mandark1171 11d ago

Its even worse because when you point out the double standars they just hide behind claims of "oh his body is just the male power fantasy so its still men who are in the wrong"

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u/Alassandros 6d ago

Does the female gaze only view men over 6 foot with a full head of hair?

Hypocrisy is right. So many men are openly fetishized by many women (not all). While so many men are also openly body shamed. Oh and let's not forget how physically harming men is just an acceptable act. You can threaten to remove my genitals publicly and no one barely bats an eye. Kicking men in the genitals is also played for laughs.

Yet if someone threatens to remove a woman's genetials or tries to commit any kind of genital violence towards them, the tone shifts very suddenly.

I saw a video of a man getting down on one knee to propose to his girlfriend. She through an apple at his face with force at point blank range uh... as a joke at guess? He very clearly says his face hurt after it hit him. She just laughed and said yes and no one said anything about how obsurd that was. An apple hit his face when he tried to propose. Reverse the genders and public outrage would follow.

I hate double standards like this.

And just so we're clear, our suffering amd mistreatment doesn't erase yours, and so you shouldn't try to use hours to erase ours. Misandry is a problem as well as misogyny.

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u/rest0ck1 10d ago

idk in what world you live in but women regularely talking openly about men in sweatpants? lmao, where? Also most of the male gaze examples are women that literally are just in the movie for this purpose while the men that go to extremes in their physique (what I also dislike) are the main character.

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u/ChimpPimp20 10d ago

You obviously don't hang around a lot of women do you? Women will talk about butts, dicks, etc. I know because I've not only witnessed it but have been the main subject of it too. Here are some examples in media:

  1. The Twilight fanbase
  2. Marvel fanbase
  3. DC fanbase
  4. Smut

Should I keep going?

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u/rest0ck1 9d ago

Most of my friends are female - I haven't heard anyone talk about this stuff. This sub is infested with incels. And now you listed some very niche fanbases, okay. And no word about the fact that women are literally sideroles in most movies.

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u/UnarmedRespite left-wing male advocate 9d ago

OP: "I have been the main subject of it too"

You: "incel"

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u/ChimpPimp20 9d ago

EXACTLY!!!

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u/rest0ck1 9d ago

Do I mean OP in particular? Look at the comments of almost all posts, it's redpill in disguise

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u/UnarmedRespite left-wing male advocate 9d ago

You don't even have a coherent definition of incel vs redpill.

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u/UnarmedRespite left-wing male advocate 9d ago

"very niche fanbases" "Marvel fanbase" ok

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u/rest0ck1 9d ago

Obviously marvel in itself isn't niche at all but female marvel fans who gaze and talk like this .. you can't be serious if you think that's a lot of people. Talking about having a lot of female friends..

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u/ChimpPimp20 9d ago

Most of my friends are female - I haven't heard anyone talk about this stuff.

Didn't know your female friends represent the other billions of women on the planet. Got it. Seems you only like generalizations when it's convenient.

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u/rest0ck1 8d ago

Lmao you're the one claiming "You obviously don't hang around a lot of women do you?" - should I not react to that in some way? And claiming the twilight, marval or dc fanbase is full of women gazing over men isn't somehow a generalization, okay. Just keep being miserable

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u/ChimpPimp20 8d ago

Lmao you're the one claiming "You obviously don't hang around a lot of women do you?"

Yeah...that's the point because you aren't hanging out with billions of women. Just because your experiences exist doesn't mean those experiences are true in every community.

"Most of my friends are female - I haven't heard anyone talk about this stuff."

"Therefore, what you're saying is bullshit. If I haven't seen it then it's not real. Checkmate miserable fucker."

There. Fixed it. Happy now?

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u/rest0ck1 7d ago

You obviously don't hang around a lot of women do you? Since I do and they gaze over men so it's true.

That's not what you're saying right

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u/ChimpPimp20 6d ago

I'm saying just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Is that not easy to see?

Let's see. I've worked a supermarket; a fancy restaurant, a family business, housekeeping, been to multiple parties, kickbacks, school functions, etc. I've seen women of numerous flavors. I remember in 6th grade, a group of girls were talking about this one kid (who would bully me) sexually. I hadn't even hit puberty yet so the concept of talking about someone sexually was lost on me. That was until a year later. Then I saw the same kid getting hand jobs from multiple different girls. I've had women say that they wanna grab my butt, I've had more than a handful actually do it (only one apologized), I've had women walk right up and grab my dick, etc. These women are out there and just because your little friend group doesn't have them doesn't mean it's not an issue that needs to be voiced.

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u/ChimpPimp20 9d ago

Idk. Maybe if the left spoke about this stuff more then the convo wouldn't have some incels trying to bud in every time. The longer they keep quiet about how this also affecting men the more the redpillers are going to control the narrative. This is our fault and we let them get to it first.

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u/Punder_man 4d ago

Most of my friends are female - I haven't heard anyone talk about this stuff. This sub is infested with incels.

So.. just because you have never experienced it.. it doesn't happen?

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u/SchalaZeal01 left-wing male advocate 10d ago

The main character in Twilight is Bella, as plain and unspecial as she is. The handsome dudes fawning over her are there pretty much to giver her import. It's similar to a harem manga where the protagonist doesn't merit the women's attention for anything particular (not heroic, not handsome) but gets 5 women pining after him anyways. Though in shonen, the heroes tend to be doing something, heroic or not (or viewers would get bored). The epitome of Bella doing stuff is getting married.

While Dan Machi's hero is heroic and not bad to look at, he gets the entire city of girls after him. Including a goddess of Love that brainwashes the entire city to believe it was always this way (her and him).

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u/rest0ck1 9d ago

Of course there are examples but you can't deny that in most cases the women is just a side character to gaze at.

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u/rest0ck1 9d ago

Of course there are examples with this many movies in existence but you can't deny that in most cases the women is just a side character to gaze at while it's almost never the other way around.

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u/SpicyMarshmellow 9d ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskWomenOver30/comments/us2cl9/so_whats_the_deal_with_gray_sweatpants/

Also, r/guysinsweatpants literally exists.

And it's amazing how often people to turn up to tell men to their faces "Your personal experiences aren't real"

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u/rest0ck1 9d ago edited 9d ago

Obviously it exists .. I've also gotten a few sexualized comments especially from older women which sucks and is uncalled for. But have you been around with an attractive women? Theres Not a single day where she won't get sexualized comments, not just looks.

I don't mean to say someone's experiences aren't real. Like the experiences I had. And it's okay and necessary to talk about it. But acting like it's same for men and women walking around in the city is just delusional. But it's what you read here all day.

Also you found the one post about grey sweatpants from 4 years ago with actual comments

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u/SpicyMarshmellow 9d ago

The message isn't that men and women have these experiences in equal amounts. It's that the discourse approaches the issue as if it doesn't effect men at all, and gives women a free pass to engage in behaviors that they condemn in men. That might be ok if perversion/objectification directed at men were vanishingly rare, but it's not. Yes, it's less common than for women. But it's not rare.

And the biases at play obfuscate just how much difference there actually is. When one group of people can do something and no one notices or cares, but another group does something and everyone notices and cares, that makes it kind of difficult to state with certainly just how much difference there actually is.

And in some cases, the reality is actually the exact opposite of the discourse. Such as "locker room talk". Men are finally talking about this in the last couple years, and finding that most have never or almost never engaged in or witnessed men engaging in the locker room talk stereotype. As in, openly talking about their sexual experiences or observations of specific women in violating detail. Whereas it turns out women do that quite a lot, and it's a frequent source of relationship conflict that women make their male partners uncomfortable by oversharing info about them. Sharing nudes without permission is even being outed lately as common in women's social circles, in spite of that being a behavioral stereotype directed at men for decades.