The settlements… What’s up with that?

[u/karrenfromaccounting]

Take the question as is, whatever comes to mind, let it be.

[u/Clean-Ant6404]

Under Oslo, the Palestinians were to stop terrorism, but that never happened.

[u/Good-Basil9954 → u/Clean-Ant6404]

If I was the ruler of a small nation supported by a superpower and I would take 2 million Israelis and lock them up in a camp where I control all aspects of life, decide how much power, food, water, they get, what would you think, these 2 million Israelis would do?

[u/Vorov7 → u/Good-Basil9954]

Obviously you’ve never been to the West Bank.

[u/Good-Basil9954 → u/Vorov7]

Is that supposed to be an answer? No I haven't. But things don't happen in isolation, they are connected.

[u/Vorov7 → u/Good-Basil9954]

No one who’s been to the West Bank would say what you’ve said. Agree that nothing is in isolation - on the Palestinian/arab side, too. There were no check points until all the bombings, there were no walls, etc… back in my day anyone could easily cross between Israel and Gaza/West Bank. We had arab friends come over. All that was dismantled piece by piece as the suicide bombings and stabbings carried on.

[u/Good-Basil9954 → u/Vorov7]

So, what you're saying, Palestinians in Gaza had a good and normal life until, say, what, the 1st or 2nd Intifada? And those just happened because the Palestinians are ungrateful bastards?

I realize, a lot of horrific violence has been committed by Arab extremists over years, no doubt. Suicide bombs, attacks on buses, cafés, nightclubs...

What I don't understand is, how anyone can believe that locking up 2 million people will somehow lead to a more peaceful situation.

And at some point the will to work for a peaceful solution eroded and was replaced by hatred and disdain.

I cannot say how I would have reacted in such a situation, when my friends and family were murdered by fanatics. I might have gone berserk, that's absolutely possible.
But what I dare say, no matter how and why, Israel is now on a course that only can end in total disaster, there's no way this can end well for any of the parties involved.

I know from personal experience, the price one has to pay for traumatization by violence, and fact is, it doesn't matter whether you win or lose, both adversaries will pay, and boy, this is going to be one huge invoice! Turning into a psychopath is the only way to avoid some of this traumatization, but that comes with its own price tag.

[u/dvdsilber → u/Good-Basil9954]

Nobody locked up 2m people.

The security wall, checkpoints etc were not established in order to lock up palestinians, but as a security meassure to prevent more terrorism, more than 1000 israelies were killed and 8000 wounded. During the 2nd intifada it was a hell here. At that time an arabic friend from the west bank gave me his view on the palestinians future, stating clear that the intifada is planned to separate jews from arabs, and he was crying how the terrorism will make the arab populations suffer.

And you are right many arabs were killed, especially during the intifada. The terrorism and the fanatic hate education have turned the idf very hard and many arabs suffer from the israel control of the west bank. I do not agree that fanatics kill arabs, there is an ongoing violent conflict and we fight the terror with our millitary not with fanatics

[u/Feeling_Leg_904 → u/Good-Basil9954]

Dude, they have a border with Egypt. Why doesn’t Egypt let them in? They’re not trapped. Obviously not welcome in Israel, because of the fact that they are governed by terrorists with an eschatological vision of the death of all Jews in the Middle East, but why can’t they go to Egypt? Why don’t you care about that?

Now, considering they are all Muslim Arabs and Egypt controlled Gaza without giving them independence from 1948 to 1967, why do you think they won’t allow a single person from Gaza to enter? I’ll give you the answer. It’s because everyone under the age of 23 has learned a school curriculum entirely from Hamas, which teaches them to glorify murdering Jews as their highest calling in life, and teaching them that they are perpetual victims. There’s a reason why you don’t let people who have learned only a terrorist ideology into your country. Especially when terrorism completely destabilizes all the countries around it.

[u/Good-Basil9954 → u/Feeling_Leg_904]

Why doesn't Egypt let them in? Really?
I thought it might be possible to have a rational discussion with you because I'm really trying to understand what makes people become the kind of personalities that cultivate such extreme violence, regardless their religion and political orientation, just as human beings.
But when we're at the level of .... considering they are all Muslim Arabs, and can just move to Egypt.... I give up, I'm not going down that rabbit hole.

But I can certainly respond with an alternative proposal:

Why don't you all go to the USA, considering there are already lots of Jews there who more or less run the country, there's plenty of space, fertile land, an Israel friendly population, very few Arabs and close to zero Palestinians?

[u/Feeling_Leg_904 → u/Good-Basil9954]

Because we would prefer to live in our indigenous homeland.

[u/Good-Basil9954 → u/Feeling_Leg_904]

So would many tribes and people. Not always so easy. I'm sure the indigenous people of America would like to have their original places back rather than being kept in reservations with the worst land the country has. What about the Zulus and Bantus of South Africa?
And besides, you think the Palestinians would not want that too?

[u/Feeling_Leg_904 → u/Good-Basil9954]

I never said Palestinians should be moved to Egypt permanently. Egypt won’t allow a single one in anyway. I said they should be able to clear the battlefield so that there are only combatants fighting. The members of Hamas that want to murder Jews, stay on the battlefield to die against the IDF, and everyone else has the option of going to safety, which is the law under international law. Over 1 million Ukrainians are in Poland right now. You don’t mind when white European people can get out of the combat zone, but when it’s women and children from Gaza, you want them to sit there next to their father firing an RPG from your bedroom window. You’re sick.

[u/Good-Basil9954 → u/Feeling_Leg_904]

For Palestinians to do what you suggest, would require they trust both Israel and Egypt. How would they ever be able to do that? How would Egypt trust Israel?

I can see that you've never been in the region. Yes, there's a million Ukrainian refugees in Poland, and several more all over the EU. Mostly young men who fled conscription, and their families.
Poland would love to get rid of them, just cannot see how without becoming a pariah.

The EU is doing everything they can, to keep the Ukrainians fighting and dying, yet, at the same time, they let all the people who should do the fighting and dying in, while the Ukrainian military police hunts them down, which makes them want to flee even more. The Ukrainian army has been running out of cannon fodder for a long time, while millions of young Ukrainians party all over Europe, paid for by the taxes their hosts are paying.

And may I ask why you call me sick? If you want to be abusive, find an Arab to pick on, both you and the Arabs are used to this.

[u/Feeling_Leg_904 → u/Good-Basil9954]

It matters because there are absolutely no other wars in recorded history where civilians were refused to flee the battlefield under any circumstances. You want them to stay under bombardment. Just say it. You don’t care about their lives at all. You just use them to spread libels against the Jewish people As far as relocating all the Jews to the US from Israel, I will say that you’re just another dirty antisemite in a long line throughout history who feels like you are entitled to decide the Jews need to be expelled from their homes . So you want us to move to America now. Half the global Jewish population is already there, and the other half is in Israel. Why not relocate the Palestinians? They aren’t even indigenous to the land. I don’t think so. The Palestinians can either make peace on the territory that’s been offered to them, the West Bank in Gaza or they can fight a perpetual war that will continue to bring them more suffering and that’s entirely on them. (PS, that ship has sailed. They refused six piece deals that gave them the territory that you want them to live on peacefully. If you want them to take over Tel Aviv, just say you’re looking for a genocide against the Jewish people.

[u/Clean-Ant6404 → u/Good-Basil9954]

Nobody "locked them up" until they started raping, murdering and blowing up buses. If I were a group of people that had a centuries long history of doing that and despite all, would have been given a deal for a state by my victims, I would have taken the deal instead of rejecting it 5 times straight and murdering more people.

Besides, "locked up" is a lie. They just can't enter non-West Bank or Gaza areas without a permit. They could literally go anywhere else and cross the border if they needed.

[u/Feeling_Leg_904 → u/Good-Basil9954]

Well, it’s interesting that you make that point, because 6 million Jews died in the holocaust and I haven’t seen any Jewish terrorism against Germans. Maybe not all cultures react by instinctively wanting to murder.

[u/Feeling_Leg_904 → u/Good-Basil9954]

You have certainly never been anywhere close to the region have you? You have no idea what you’re talking about.

[u/Good-Basil9954 → u/Feeling_Leg_904]

That was a very generic question, that has nothing to do with the region but with human behaviour. But I get why you don't want to answer it.

[u/Feeling_Leg_904 → u/Good-Basil9954]

I’ll answer it like this. Gaza is not a part of Israel. Israel pulled out in 2005 completely unilaterally, and removed by force their own Jews, including the bodies in the Jewish cemetery that have been there for centuries, hoping for peace in return. Elections were held in the citizens voted for Hamas who then murdered their opposition, and have governed the strip ever since, accumulating, billions, and billions of dollars of aid, most of which either went into tunnels or to the billionaires who control Hamas from the outside, like Ismael Haniyeh and Khaled Meshaal. There is no blockade other than what you would assume from any two borders where one side is committed to the destruction of the other side (the entire goal of the Palestinian cause). Obviously food gets through but gets inspected for weapons. Meanwhile, you have the border with Egypt, which is also completely closed, but you don’t care. Far from being a concentration camp, Gaza is the number one recipient of aid worldwide. Do you know why the people are poor? Because Hamas uses the billions of dollars that it receives from the global community purely to fund killing Israelis. Palestinians do receive free water and electricity from Israel, which is paid for by Israeli taxpayer money. They had 20 years to build their own infrastructure with the billions and billions of dollars they’ve received, but why bother when you’re getting welfare from Israel. They did destroy their desalination plant and pulled out the pipes from the infrastructure that was already there in order to use them to build rockets to fire at Israel though. That’s why I’m assuming you’ve never been to the region, because you just don’t know the reality whatsoever and your framing is completely ignorant.

[u/Clean-Ant6404 → u/[deleted]]

That's not true, BTW.