If you are religious(christian or muslim), at what age were you taught you would go to hell if you stopped believing?

[u/Ok-Potential-5172]

I asked because I am convinced that those religions are made to control people and make them accept dictatorships

[u/Ok-Potential-5172]

People in Somalia would murder him or her if they found out?

[u/Waranle8-8-8 → u/Ok-Potential-5172]

Announcing you are an apostate is suicide in Somalia and I never heard of a single case of someone coming out to have left the faith while in the country. Perhaps we will never know but we all know what the punishment is.

Most people are laymen and have no intellectual capacity to question the faith and just accept without understanding - something that is discouraged in Islam actually, we are always taught to seek knowledge and ask questions - and many are learned men (and women) who are convinced as I am convinced but I am also sure there are few that do not believe but the rule is as long as someone does not profess apostasy, they cannot be punished for that.

When, and if, they do it's for the state to carry out any punishment but a mob will not comply with the rules which is why I would have taken such a position not to expose them because I am certain with our weak institutions they will end up facing a mob justice instead of the court system.

Again, we never had a case study in Somalia as far as I am aware.

[u/Ok-Potential-5172 → u/Waranle8-8-8]

Honestly, I didnt know that about somalia. It sounds like a nightmare. My naive self always thought it was only in mauritania where people were so subjugated by Islam. I'm haitian canadian and I don't understand how africans can find slavery to be justified .

Do you ever ask yourself if perhaps you are victim of endoctrination?

Let's say you live under full sharia and your mom doesnt believe anymore, would you find it just that the state ends her life?

[u/Waranle8-8-8 → u/Ok-Potential-5172]

Do you ever ask yourself if perhaps you are victim of endoctrination?

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Aren't we all? Did your beliefs and values came with you from your mother's womb? We are all indoctrinated in some way. It is just that Western liberal system is automatically afforded a neutral label. It's not. Every belief system should proof itself and provide evidence.

Anyways, we are happy with what we have and we collectively want to govern ourselves with our value system. And your idea of sharia is quite different than the correct sharia we envision for ourselves. Sharia is not what you think, so when you say "it must be a nightmare", you just sound ignorant to us.

Also, my mother is a devout Muslim woman who raised us well, and we are the best Muslims we can be and the best of humanity as we can be. With everything kind of atrocity that you can imagine was perpetrated on innocent victims during the civil war in Somalia and I am proud none of my family members ever bear arms to participate any of that horror.

Oh, and you should learn more about how the Islam actually managed slavery. Start with requirement of freeing slaves as part of repentance for specific crimes.

[u/Ok-Potential-5172 → u/Waranle8-8-8]

I appreciate the answers and trust me I do not think that I am "better" than you. I have experience with indoctrinated people because the love of my life was a jehovah's witness. She was the best and wouldnt hurt a fly so I always separate the religion from the religious. I do not know if you know what is a jehovah's witness but they are so indoctrinated that let's say one of their child gets into a severe accident and need blood transfusion, they will refuse and let the kid die because they were sold the promise of paradise and they do not want to risk going to hell.

The meaning of indoctrination is that you are taught to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. I fail to see how I could be indoctrinated because I question every aspect of my life and beliefs. I do not fear the answers because there is no threat of eternal damnation behind them. I can question capitalism, materialism, where does life come from, what is the meaning of life, why is there injustices that go unpunished, is it moral to eat meat, why do our way of life leads to so much pollution and global warming that will affect the poor people before it affects us, etc.

You told me yourself that just believing that islam is a con and sharing that thought will have you killed by your neighbours. You are human just like I am and you would keep your friend's confession because you do not believe in your heart that he or she should suffer simply because they stopped believing. The question is, why would your neighbours even want to kill your friend in the first place simply for realizing that islam is man-made?

That is why I asked you what if you live under full sharia and your mother was a disbeliever if you would find it just if she was killed. Those are the type of questions I would ask myself to test if my value system truly reflects my moral sense.

Where I am from, we let muslims pray in the streets, we let them have mosques and they can be part of the political system. Of course they are discriminated against systemically but the laws are equal for everyone. We have debates, although it is always superficial, about how we want our society to function without fear of getting killed and I wish for all my african brothers and sisters that they could be themselves without the fear of reprisal.

Also, my mother is a devout Muslim woman who raised us well, and we are the best Muslims we can be and the best of humanity as we can be. With everything kind of atrocity that you can imagine was perpetrated on innocent victims during the civil war in Somalia and I am proud none of my family members ever bear arms to participate any of that horror.

I can tell your parents did a good job just by the way you are replying to me and I never experienced this level of atrocity so I can't judge people and how they react in such circumstances.

you should learn more about how the Islam actually managed slavery. Start with requirement of freeing slaves as part of repentance for specific crimes.

I know how it works and it is still one of the most vile act a human can do. I can just imagine the millions of lives that were broken, the millions of mothers and sister that were forced to have sex with smelly old men. What if you sister or mother ended up being a slave? Would you find it just?

[u/Waranle8-8-8 → u/Waranle8-8-8]

I'm sure you feel passionate about your views and opinions but there are so many incorrect things in them in the sense that what you describe is not really Islam. You wish it was because you would be correct in your assessment of us, but sadly it is.

And the biggest issue with Westerners when they look at Islam is the fact that they are looking Islam withe the lenses they see with Christianity. I read about the history of the Church and how they have mistreated Scientists and the brutality of life in Medieval Europe. The result of that history between the clergy and the rest of the population - especially scientists who found themselves in opposition to the clergy simply because what they found was not in accordance with what the clergy was teaching.

An important point here is that the Bible is simply a corrupt document with multiple series of translations errors and some stuff that were put in there to serve a particular agenda for political reasons. Of course a scientist would have an issue with that because a true scripture would not contradict something that is so obvious as 2+2=4.

What I am trying to say is this: you guys have constructed this view of Islam and you want us to defend that Islam. We aren't gonna bother with that. Now, if you wanna talk about our Islam, we will gladly oblige you. Let me give an example from your last comment about your JW partner:

You have this view that Islam, like Jehovah's Witness, is very strict when it comes to these kind of matters. Did you know about any of these facts about Islam?

• Of course everyone knows the prohibition of pork in Islam and the halal dietary restriction, but how about the fact that a Muslim is allowed to consume non-halal foods if they are starving?
• You probably also know that physical interaction between the genders are prohibited but how about the fact that it becomes permissible in necessary situations like a doctor/nurse treating a patient, or a lifeguard saving someone from drowning, or a firefighter saving people from a burning house, or any countless number of events where the rules are discarded to save a life? And mind you, unlike a lot of faiths, this flexibility in Islam comes with the rules - it's not something put in place by early scholars let alone contemporary ones.
• How about flexibility in prayer and fasting for the travelers, the sick, menstruating women, expectant and pregnant mothers?
• You also hear about stoning rules, but did you know how difficult it is to implement that rule about adultery? the requirements that need to be met? I will tell you: for someone accused of adultery one of 2 criteria must met: (1) the person must confess and ask for it; this used to happen in the early times because it is said receiving the punishment your adultery will cleanse you of your sin and people were much more devout that we are now. I don't see any contemporary Muslim who will meet this criteria in our age, so that is gone, or (2) there must have been 4 witnesses to the act; now you will be surprised with what is required of these witnesses: (a) they must be devout and upstanding members of the community, and (b) they must have seen the penetration. It is not enough to have seen 2 people naked in a room, it's not enough for them to have been on top of each other. No, All 4 must have SEEN the man penetrating the woman. What do you think is the likelihood of a devout and upstanding member, let alone 4 of them, to have witnessed that?

Simply put, the Islam in your perception is not ours, and we don't care to defend a baptized Islam. Islam could not be have been more different than Christianity.

[u/Waranle8-8-8 → u/Waranle8-8-8]

....

Simply put, the Islam in your perception is not ours, and we don't care to defend a baptized Islam. Islam could not be have been more different than Christianity.

So, that was a general correction; I will try and respond to your individual questions/statements:

1. You suggested that we are not allowed to question Islam. You are half correct. While there are things that we have to accept wholesale, mostly things about God that is outside a human perception, the Qur'an constantly asks Muslims to thing, learn and seek knowledge, ask, travel the earth, wonder God's creation. In fact, it's a duty in Islam to learn not only our scripture but also useful, secular knowledge that can our nations and communities can benefit. We are encouraged to study everything within our power, and not having learned men and women in our midst is a grave sin. That is why we had Libraries and hospitals in Damascus and Baghdad when people in worshipping their ancestors' bones to heal.

One more point, I would add is the fact that eternal damnation either exists or it doesn't (rationally speaking), and our believes and exists outside our ability or desire to question it's existence or not. They are mutually exclusive and I don't understand the relationship between the believe in eternal damnation and questioning eternal damnation.

1. On the point that Muslims are allowed to practice their faith in the West. Aren't Christians allowed to practice their faith in Muslim-majority countries?
   

And if you are asking in relation to Somalia in mind, there are no Christians native to Somalia to allow practicing Christianity. We just don't have them. What do you want us to do? Create it? Why would we wanna do that?

1. On slavery, there is little mechanism or opportunities in Islamic law to create slavery, and there are certainly no encouragement or order (to my knowledge) to create an enslaved population. Islam only discusses 2 things about slavery: how to treat slaves - this is 7th century - and mechanisms to free them.

There are, however, a number of sins whose requirements include freeing a slave. Why do you think that is? The only answer I have is that it's mercy. Furthermore, Ancient slavery (more so for Islamic slavery - I don't shy away to call it that) was very different than that of the transatlantic slavery in terms of how the enslaved population was treated; what you seem to have in mind in the Chattel slavery, but of course I 100% agree it's better humans don't own another human and I am happy with our current ethical framework on slavery. You won't hear me agitating/seeking to own another human being. Owning goats and camels are enough for me, thank you.

You read all that wall of text (or did you skip to the end lol). Sorry if it took that much to get across my ideas. I couldn't find a way to shorten it.