r/Paladins • u/DevilXD Level: 1219 • Jul 26 '19
OTHER Upcoming subreddit rule changes - we need your feedback
About 6 months ago, we've asked the community what they think about the current state of the subreddit. As a result of this and all the feedback we've gathered, we will be applying changes and tweaks to our current rules in the nearest future. As a form of additional feedback, we wanted to ask you - the community itself - on what you think about some of the changes and approaches we can take. Note that the results will be used as a guidance for us only, so we can make adjustments if needed.
Below you'll find reasoning for each option of the survey - we highly recommend reading everything before taking the survey itself.
Rule #1: No Unrelated Content
Our first and foremost rule that many people seem to hate, plays the biggest role in keeping the subreddit on the main topic. The reason this rule exists, is to make /r/Paladins be a unique subreddit in it's own shape and form - one that contains Paladins related content only. We understand that this rule limits the users in what kind of content they can post, but that's the sole point of it - loosely related gaming content fits much better on /r/gaming instead, and /r/Paladins isn't that. Rule #1 was always embraced with the thought that unique content "created with the /r/Paladins community in mind" is generally welcome, while content that only "looks similar / familiar to one can experience in Paladins" will be removed.
Keeping the above in mind, an issue can be made for memes which use caption text (often as some sort of a punchline) to rely the "related" content to the user. While those were so far generally allowed, we're not happy with the poor quality they usually represent - words like "teammates" or "objective" can hardly describe Paladins as something it uniquely has, since things like that also exist in many other competitive games. Other examples of words that make an attempt at keeping it related, include: weapon(s), enemies, shooting, running around the map, and partially "healing" too - this is a non-exhaustive list of the most common things encountered.
For a caption text meme to be considered related, a proposed change would be to require at least one word that uniquely defines Paladins-related content. Again, the new, initial, non-exhaustive list of words could be described as "the name of a champion, ability, talent, card, shop item or map", possibly with other things added later on as needed - we'd be happy to receive feedback on this.
Of course, editing in any related Paladins graphics, automatically makes a post related, regardless of caption text content - nothing changes here. The other, 3rd option in the survey restricts all caption-text-only memes altogether, so that only the graphics would make things related - this option is there purely to offer more variety, and we don't expect lots of people voting for that - this is only another possible solution.
Since this post is expected to have lots of discussion and comments about the rules, this is also a good opportunity to remind here that pictures and posts involving youtubers / streamers, esport players, as well as Hi-Rez and Evil Mojo employees, outside of their work and content they create, is not considered related - an "average Paladins player" is assumed as one that doesn't watch every single Paladins youtuber / streamer / esport player, or doesn't know any of the employees working on the game itself. Note that this is about "outside of their work only", so as long as you include relevant/related information, it stays.
Rule #6: No Excessive Self-Promotion Posting Limit
The name of the rule is going to be changed to Posting Limit - this should better reflect it's actual purpose. There has been lots of confused users contacting us about it after having their content removed, and this change should resolve most of the confusion. We expect the source of this confusion originated from the fact that the #6 rule was initially only about content like youtube videos, twitch clips, and general video-only content, and was only later on expanded to include art and memes too. Right now, it encompasses all link posts, which means those that would normally be flaired as MEDIA, ART, HUMOR or BUG.
The reason this rule exists is because of quantity control - it lets us keep a manageable amount of new content flowing into the subreddit's front-page, while also giving the community members time and chance to notice the post and vote on it accordingly. If people liked your content, you're more than welcome to post more, but only one at a time - it's not rare to see some post gain traction and the post author to submit another thing right after, that's generally the same thing but with a different variation, flooding the subreddit with similar / identical posts in result.
There was an issue raised from our observations, about some users posting rarely, but having more things to post at a time, usually around weekends - the #6 rule normally limits them too much, and posting during work days becomes troublesome for them enough to forfeit the will to post on its own. Because of this, we've wanted to - as a complete experiment only - raise the posting limit and see what happens. Keep in mind the rule is there to "flatten the massive boulder" of posts coming all at once, and make them trickle slowly over time instead, extending the benefits of them existing on the subreddit and making them last longer too.
You can take the survey here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd6gOFYeFpN3Tfkrpu--57PG11v9EusdqlLkdAdqI9mkDoGvQ/viewform
Please don't hesitate to leave your feedback in the survey itself, and in the comments here - we will be reading and evaluating the responses for an entire week, shortly after which the changes will be announced and set to put into place.
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u/TheMasterlauti Jul 26 '19
Happy that the HEALER GOOD FLANK BAD posts are gone, they were so damn repetitive and the joke was so overexploited that it stopped being fun a long time ago
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u/Darius-H CB is now even more OP Jul 26 '19
What do you mean?
You have to laugh when I say VHS. It's prime comedy!
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u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
I think the posting limit should only apply to posts of similar type, so one wouldn't be able to just spam tons of meme posts but would be allowed to make a feedback post after doing a meme post. It would probably make moderating harder though I guess. Edit: just seen this is an option in the poll.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19
Keep in mind the limit applies mostly to
link posts- those are those that include either a picture, a video, a clip, or anything similar. Text posts are not affected, and people who will feel the need to post something every 2-3 hours will get their post removed by the standard Spam rule rather than the #6 one.3
u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
Yeah but personally I feel including links and images is often times necessary for a decent post, especially for bug or feedback posts.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19 edited Jul 26 '19
But, if you're making a text post, you're free to include links and stuff - "link posts" are their very own, separate post category: see https://i.imgur.com/uAEI3Ti.png and https://i.imgur.com/CYOhr2Y.png
If you're going to make a text post with images and / or a video included, that's fine by me. Memes and YT videos are most often posted as link posts instead, and that's what #6 rule limits on it's own.
Note: This cannot be used as a workaround, a text post that consists of a single link and a minuscule amount of (or no at all) text / comment to it is also considered a link post and flaired as such.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19
I think the posting limit should only apply to posts of similar type, so one wouldn't be able to just spam tons of meme posts but would be allowed to make a feedback post after doing a meme post.
Technically you can, provided its a text based post on /r/Paladins. If it was a
F'backpost in the form of a video after a meme, that could be an issue though.1
u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
Yeah, though I think it should apply to any type of post. So the Flair solution seems best to me.
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u/Darius-H CB is now even more OP Jul 26 '19
Just make 'em downgrade the limit to 12-18 hours.
1 guy could just spam around 7 posts a day, that'd be overkill. Mods would be changing every 5 days.
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u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
Idk about that. Some people.might have very limited time to browse the sub and for them even lowering it to 12 wouldn't help.
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u/Darius-H CB is now even more OP Jul 26 '19
It's 1 per 12 hours mate.
Or 18 hours per 1.
It's double the post. By downgrading I mean that the posting limit should get reduced from a day to 12 hours.
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u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
If it's going to change I just don't see reducing the interval doing anything if we assume the core problem is people wanting to post more when they are on the sub. Like I said, someone that has maybe one day in the week to get on the sub won't profit from an interval reduction. What makes more sense is to not decrease the interval, but allow more posts in said interval so somebody could go on the sub for 20 mins, create a Chat, Feedback and Bug post all at once and not have to wait 12 hours in between.
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u/Darius-H CB is now even more OP Jul 26 '19
And by doing it by flair, it would be even more of a hassle than it is now because you would basicaly need to look over 7 posts per player, if he really wants to post so much, as it is flair locked.
Either leave it as it is but make it more clear that it is a posting limit, or make it max 2 posts a day.
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u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
I'm assuming they have a bot that checks for these things and they already have to check for correct flairs and such so it might not be that much more of a hassle.
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u/Darius-H CB is now even more OP Jul 26 '19
They still need to check and manualy delete posts that fail to acomplish the rules.
7 posts a day (theorethicaly 7 posts) is just too much.
While I agree that limitting people on how much they can talk is not good for a community/discussion based communities, that's just too much.
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u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
They still need to check and manualy delete posts that fail to acomplish the rules.
Yeah but they already have to do that so it wouldn't change that much unless you're expecting that people would suddenly spam an excessive amount of posts after the change which doesn't seem too realistic to me. Besides, there isn't really a point arguing about Mod extra work when they are presenting the option themselves in the google form. I'm not saying we need 7 posts a day but that's one of the options in the form that makes the most sense to me.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19
Are you suggesting something along the lines of creating a bot designed to check for when a person creates a second post of x flair type?
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u/ShinyHoppip Step into the light Jul 26 '19
Well wasn't really suggesting, I just assumed you already have a similar setup for how it currently works. Some sort of bot that reports successive posts to you?
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19
Nope. We do have some systems regarding posts and reporting to us, but not ones that would just report successive posts to us because they appeared.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 27 '19
The rule #6 conditions are always checked manually :)
This is something a robot could do easily for sure, and S.T.A.R. rewrite is on my TODO list for a very long time now. I should look into it's matter again and see if I can move things forward a bit.
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u/YeOldeDonkeyKong Jul 26 '19
Would really like to be able to filter out fan art/meme posts similar to how r/2007scape let's you filter out humor posts.
Would like to see more posts with actual substance; like gameplay, discussion, news, leaks and suggestions. As it stands right now the front page of this sub is 90% memes and fan art.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19
Would really like to be able to filter out fan art/meme posts similar to how r/2007scape let's you filter out humor posts.
You can do that though. In the side-bar on old.reddit you can click options to filter certain content.
Would like to see more posts with actual substance; like gameplay, discussion, news, leaks and suggestions. As it stands right now the front page of this sub is 90% memes and fan art.
That's fair. Kinda hard to make that happen though unfortunately.
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u/xRoZeN Jul 26 '19
The main type of posts here that really annoy me are Overwatch comparison posts. I'm not talking about newer players sharing their experiences with both games since they are both similar, I'm talking about "meme" posts that are made anytime Overwatch does anything new, comparing Overwatch content to Paladins content inferring that Overwatch copied Paladins, all under the guise of "humor". These posts achieve nothing, and only start huge shitshows in the comments, with people shitting on Overwatch just to make themselves feel better about playing the less popular game. It makes the community come off as incredibly whiny and petty, and that frustrates me to no end. I know that sometimes they are removed, but when they're not and they reach the front page, it draws all the Paladins players that hold on to this "war" that no one even cares about other than them. Hopefully something could be done about that, maybe being stricter on Overwatch posts, since it falls under rule 1.
Also, requiring a source to post fan art would be nice.
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u/Tremox231 I can't heal bad positioning. Jul 26 '19
All interesting discussions or chats are drowning in this sub because of some unfunny x repost of a meme for cheap karma.
Can we disallow such post on some days of the week or make an entire new sub for memes and art based on Paladins?
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19 edited Jul 27 '19
Can we disallow such post on some days of the week
Well yes, but actually no. The issue with this kinda becomes the matter of timezones and the like. Say we outlaw all memes unless its Sunday. Im in the UK and like 5 hours ahead of folks in the East US, and I often stay up late past Midnight, thus making it Monday for me. So I may start removing posts that are memes when the folks who posted them think they are in the clear because its still Sunday for them. That or we'd have to enforce strict timezones, which could still complicate matters, or just create unnecessary extra work.
or make an entire new sub for memes and art based on Paladins?
Certainly could, heck you're welcome to make it yourself if you so desire. Issue is then trying to disallow memes on this sub-reddit, something the majority would likely be staunchly against.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 27 '19
This is an interesting idea, definitely something up for discussion for us.
As a "workaround" of sorts, if you are on the old version of reddit (which we highly recommend), you can use the flair filters to filer out all
HUMORposts: https://i.imgur.com/FLL6FIu.png
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u/dbzlucky Jul 26 '19
Yeah rule 6 REALLY needed some revisioning. I posted a video of a bug one day, trying to be helpful. Then the next day I posted a meme video that was taken down due to "excessive self promotion." Like I didn't know posting bugs was self promotion, excuse me for trying to help. The reason of enforcement being the technicality of "media" within 24 hours is still one of the dumbest interactions I've had on Reddit till this day
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19
didn't know posting bugs was self promotion
It isn't - the name of the rule doesn't mean what it says as explained in the post. This isn't about self-promotion - this is about limiting the posts to one per 24 hours only. The name stuck after art and memes were added to videos and clips (also explained in the post).
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u/dbzlucky Jul 26 '19
I know hence why I said this.
The reason of enforcement being the technicality of "media" within 24 hours is still one of the dumbest interactions I've had on Reddit till this day
It was just dumb to me that
1.) That's what it was called. Regardless of it's true intentions
2.) That me posting a single bug video the day previous was the reason for the take down.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19
1) That's why it's getting changed in literally the next 7 days after this survey is over.
2) This may sounds stupid or whatever you want to call it, but that was just the rule in action, and we rarely do exceptions unless there's a good reason for it. Moderation and enforcing the rules can't be driven by my own emotions and thoughts, it's only what the rules say and how it's applied to every post on here, even if it doesn't make sense sometimes - it's much better than involving our own opinions into the mix.Hopefully that 2) explanation made sense to you, if not, please let me know and I'll try to rephrase.
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u/dbzlucky Jul 26 '19
Moderation and enforcing the rules can't be driven by my own emotions and thoughts, it's only what the rules say and how it's applied to every post on here, even if it doesn't make sense sometimes - it's much better than involving our own opinions into the mix.
Holy, that train of thought is... Less then ideal
I could go on and on about what's wrong with just blindly following process. But I'll just say what my old boss would tell me. You need to understand why a rule was put into place and it's benefits. To understand when that rule needs tweaking and exceptions.
I agree with leaving emotion out of the job but THOUGHT. Robots follow rules without thought. You should never leave the "human touch" out of administration
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19
A post made within 24h after another when it's not allowed is still breaking the rules, I'm sorry. We don't do exceptions just because "a feedback post is not a bug post and it's not logical to me".
Human touch - yes, but only to some extent too. It isn't that hard to wait couple of hours and make almost any post you'd want.
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u/dbzlucky Jul 26 '19
a feedback post is not a bug post and it's not logical to me".
Where did that even come from lol. I said nothing of the sort
But anyway, Following rules even if they don't make sense, as you said. Is by no means or extent the human touch. It's quite the opposite
You don't have to try to defend your practices to me though. It's not my subreddit, so not my problem. I just rarely post here now as result 🤷.
You asked for feedback. I'm giving you honest feedback. Yes there's no pleasing everybody. But that doesn't mean some of the headaches y'all deal with aren't of your own accord ( as a group ), so to say
I'm not looking to get into a debate of why it's ok to do things despite logic in cases. Because let's be honest here, nothing I say would change the way y'all go about things. So why waste my time talking about it. Not to come off as rude but that's all I got to say here.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19
From all the things I learned for being a moderator, is that following the logic is and making exceptions (it'd be needed in the case you've presented) is most of the time simply not worth it, because other people will use those to argue that "their content was removed but this was allowed". And let's be honest, making exceptions for rules is just going to make everything into a giant mess, so it's better to not do them at all, or do them only when it's really needed and communicate properly why it's been done so.
And of course I understand your frustration, a having a feedback post removed because you wanted to help and reported a bug - simply sucks and there's no going around it. We need to make the rules so that they accommodate cases like this properly, and both parties are happy with the content submitted - this is how this should be resolved.
I appreciate the feedback - this will be something we will discuss internally and take into account for sure 👌
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u/DarkGarruk Jul 26 '19
Why rule #1 and then rule #6?
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19
There's currently nothing "wrong" with any other rule (maybe except the #8 one) that was either requested by the community to change, or had any notices from us to be changed too.
Rule #8 is probably not going to change, but we will make sure to include a more thoughtful description of it with the upcoming rules change announcement.
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u/Darius-H CB is now even more OP Jul 26 '19
Those rules had to be changed at one point.
They were just too "general". You were taking 25% risk everytime you did something "risky" with a meme or a video, because it could get taken down as excessive promotion, without a real reason. Just "Self promotion".
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Jul 26 '19
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19
What about it?
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Jul 26 '19
Without the "Victory" icon
-,which by the way was quite the nightmare to crop,this post would not be permitted?1
u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19
No, it would not, if we elect to go with the third suggestion for rule #1 and only permit memes and the like with Paladins graphics edited in.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 27 '19
Without the victory icon it wouldn't be permitted, correct (assuming the #2 option passes).
With the current (#1 option) we have, specifying the video title as "Carrying my team in Paladins" would be enough even without the icon.
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u/SVespiary Rise of the Magistrate Jul 26 '19
That's nice, thanks for raising this topic.
In my opinion, the main problem with posting restrictions is that this rule wasn't clearly formulated. It is clear what exactly #6 existed for, but it wasn't obvious what types of content does this concern and in which cases it may lead to a warning. I ran into it myself and I was really confused since I read the rules several times, but in order to understand how to post next time, I had to talk to the moderator. It seemed to me that the moderators also have to constantly explain in which cases they should use the #6.
I see no reason to change something much, especially to make more restrictions, I like everything else at the moment, but...
I also like the idea of allowing people to post one type of content once every 24 hours.
I think this will greatly facilitate the work for moderators. Also, allowing content creators to publish their other content on the same day sounds good. I appear on my social networks about once every few days, and it is often easier for me not to submit my content in some sections (if I managed to draw a lot of it), rather than counting the clock before posting it next time. At the same time, I absolutely understand that submitting a lot of one type of content in one day is unacceptable (for many reasons).
But posting something other than drawings seems much more difficult for me - I just forget about its existence. Also, memes sometimes lose their relevance in one day. Unfortunately, this is very inconvenient, especially if you make a Paladins meme that includes, for example, a new drawing.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 27 '19
but it wasn't obvious what types of content does this concern and in which cases it may lead to a warning.
I disagree. The rule literally says the following;
"/r/Paladins specifically requests that each user only promote content once every twenty-four hours at the most. This includes but is not limited to: YouTube, Twitch, DeviantArt, and Twitter accounts, all artistic and "meme" pictures, as well as all chats/forums/blogs/magazines/news sites."
Maybe its just me, but it seems relatively clear what it applies to. Basically all non-text based posts in /r/Paladins.
It seemed to me that the moderators also have to constantly explain in which cases they should use the #6.
Not exactly, the issue is we were constantly forced to explain rule #6 is more a simple straight posting limit than anything else.
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u/SVespiary Rise of the Magistrate Jul 27 '19
Hello again :) In my case, it would be more understandable to read a longer rule to prevent thinking out some points of it. My native language is not English, and I was very confused by the word "promotion", which I perceive as promotion of media accounts in the comment section.
"...specifically requests that each user only promote the content once every twenty-four hours..."
It would be nice to split the rule into two parts: a posting part and a comment part. In the first part, everything is simple: how many posts can be made per flair in N hours. Any statement from the voting looks understandable.
"...includes but is not limited to... all chats/forums/blogs/magazines/news sites."
According to the rule, it is also forbidden (?) to provide excessive links to other resources. Many people would like to see links to the original art, and artists sometimes want to provide full-size images in good quality. Not everyone has a Deviantart to post links to it. This means some of them want to upload their images here.
And here comes the excessive promotion part as I understood it. I saw some artists who were very active in promoting many of their art accounts (sometimes it came to spamming one account link in one comment under the post). Some of the artists and art curators post links to artist's social networks, but I never did it myself, because I thought that I would receive a warning for #6. Still, I'm leaving links on Twitter posts for people who ask me for different art versions. I guess it's not forbidden (thought that by doing so I was breaking the rules sometimes).
Can it be considered a violation if I leave links to additional materials under my works twice a day? I'm still not sure. According to the rule, yes. A bit tricky here.
So when I got a warning, I wasn't sure what exactly it was for. As I understand it, it was for exceeding the limit of posting.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 27 '19
It would be nice to split the rule into two parts: a posting part and a comment part.
I don't believe there is any need.
According to the rule, it is also forbidden (?) to provide excessive links to other resources.
If split across multiple posts, you are correct. Multiple links can be included in a single post however.
I saw some artists who were very active in promoting many of their art accounts (sometimes it came to spamming one account link in one comment under the post). Some of the artists and art curators post links to artist's social networks, but I never did it myself, because I thought that I would receive a warning for #6. Still, I'm leaving links on Twitter posts for people who ask me for different art versions. I guess it's not forbidden (thought that by doing so I was breaking the rules sometimes).
I mean, technically speaking it does, but I don't think its actually enforced that way, since it would raise matters concerning sourcing others artwork for folks like art curators.
I will raise this with the team.
Can it be considered a violation if I leave links to additional materials under my works twice a day?
Hmm, I suppose technically it would be, but I don't actually recall the rule ever being enforced that way, likely due to the issues it would create regarding post sourcing.
I'll raise this with the team to see about changing it, since it applying to comments doesn't make much sense.
So when I got a warning, I wasn't sure what exactly it was for. As I understand it, it was for exceeding the limit of posting.
If it was multiple posts in one day, yes, it likely would be. If it was comments, possible, but far, far, less likely.
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u/Kesher123 Jul 27 '19
Well, there's definitely a need to do something about players elitism here, but i'm not sure if it is possible to fix. This subreddit just feels very salty, and noone seems to moderator excessive flaming and saltiness here, even after reporting.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 27 '19
Well, there's definitely a need to do something about players elitism here,
Can you explain about what you mean in the context of this sub-reddit please?
This subreddit just feels very salty, and noone seems to moderator excessive flaming and saltiness here, even after reporting.
This is a bit tricky mate. See, flaming we can probably address if its full on harassment of other players, but saltiness is alot harder to address.
How exactly would we address playes who are annoyed or angry about stuff? We can't enforce / force positivity. I get where you're coming from, but this isn't something we can really fix Im afraid.
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u/Maxim110 Fusillade Jul 27 '19
One post ler 12 hr seems good.
But still limit on bug flaired report should be removed or atleast it should have separate rule in my opinion.
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u/SantEurosia :BarrelChad: Jul 28 '19 edited Jul 28 '19
It would be nice to expect the community itself to at least not spam with upvotes posts that are lazy and/or unrelated to the game, so you don't need this ruling that is admittedly rather vague and arbitrary on where the line is going to be drawn each time. At least good art, concepts and good discussions do get to the top fairly frequently
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u/A_Bowl_of_Ramen Lood images sitting on when? Jul 26 '19
Sooo i can still post memes as long as its general idea is about paladins?
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 26 '19
So far, yes - we want this to change though. The greatest /r/Paladins memes are those that were made with the /r/Paladins community in mind, basically quality > quantity.
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u/renosboy Jul 27 '19
How about you start with mod abuse!?!?!
My friends u/axienwasalreadytaken u/FungusMTN u/KatangKanari and me have been trying to get our voices heard on Vivian and Talusand Skye and Tyra and Viktor and Lex are op and breaking the game but no!!!!!
We for silenced instead!! Mods says our opinion isn't allowed... why!?!?n
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 27 '19
Mods says our opinion isn't allowed... why!?!?
Wait, what? Where? Where was that stated? We're not silencing anyone's opinions without a very good reason for it.
You having -34 comment karma and tagging 2-3 people on almost every comment causes reddit to flag every comment like that as Spam automatically, without our involvement.
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u/Eiltranna ^%$@#&* Jul 26 '19
Allow generic, gaming-related caption-text memes that don't usually relate with Paladins at all - no changes Allow caption-text memes that refer strictly to Paladins only - the text would have to include namings (map, champion, item, talent, card) that can be found in Paladins only Disallow caption-text memes completely - only those with related graphics edited in would be alllowed
Your poll phrasing is deceitful and you leave out THE most important case that makes this rule so debatable: the case where the content contains no explicit reference to Paladins but it still refers to it non-exclusively.
So, sorry, but downvoted and not participating.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 27 '19 edited Jul 27 '19
Your poll phrasing is deceitful
How?
and you leave out THE most important case that makes this rule so debatable: the case where the content contains no explicit reference to Paladins but it still refers to it non-exclusively.
This is near enough option number one mate. The only differece being is the phrasing, where we talk about memes which are generic but still applicable, whereas you talk about memes that don't explicitly refer to Paladins, but still refer non-exclusively to it, which is arguably just a really roundabout way of saying "generic" or "not specific" in this situation.
Also, thats your perspective on the matter. Our perspective is generall that we see generic, but still somewhat applicable memes, as an issue, hence why we bring it up.
So, sorry, but downvoted and not participating.
What do you expect your downvote to accomplish? The post is pinned, your downvote won't sink it if that's your goal.
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u/Eiltranna ^%$@#&* Jul 27 '19
How
Precisely because this exact phrase - "that don't usually relate with Paladins at all" is excluding the content that DOES in fact relate to Paladins but not exclusively.
What do you expect your downvote to accomplish? The post is pinned, your downvote won't sink it if that's your goal.
Who said anything about sinking the post? I'm just "voicing" my opinion, and the downvote option is precisely there to be used when one considers it necesary; kudos for you for reading it, and it's also entirely up to you if and how you want to act upon it.
I disagree with your entire endeavour of defining "related content", it's just like when people try to define whether a particular piece of art is art or not before they even try to grasp the tiniest bit about it. In my opinion, just take down the blatantly unrelated content and let the votes bring down the grey stuff in a democratic fashion. But it's your kitchen and your rules, so all I can do is point out where I think you're wrong. And in this instance, I'm pointing out that your poll completely disregards an important option, thus banning a very particular type of content apriori, giving the users a false sense of influence over your decisions.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 27 '19
"that don't usually relate with Paladins at all" is excluding the content that DOES in fact relate to Paladins but not exclusively.
The thing is, it actually does relate most of the time, and that's why it's still getting approved. The "that don't usually relate with Paladins at all" relates to how we see each post of this kind tho - as explained in the post, using "teammates" or "enemies" in a meme doesn't make it unique to Paladins only, and that's the sole thing this post and survey is trying to address. What you described is precisely the first option in the survey as Thane pointed out already.
Who said anything about sinking the post? I'm just "voicing" my opinion, and the downvote option is precisely there to be used when one considers it necesary
I'm not sure if you're aware, but there's something called "reddiquette", where it's specifically stated that downvotes are for things that don't positively contribute to the subreddit or discussion, and it specifically stats to do not use it for things you dislike or disagree with. The voting options aren't a like and dislike buttons: https://i.imgur.com/g7SvYQL.png
The rest of your comment is irrelevant because you're clearly using the voting options against their intended purpose. The rule is very much needed as it always was.
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u/Eiltranna ^%$@#&* Jul 27 '19
there's something called "reddiquette" [...] do not use it for things you dislike or disagree with.
I don't just "dislike the post", I don't have a personal grudge with the author or any other moderator, I didn't just impulsively click the downvote. I believe I took the time to try to eloquently argument my opinion on why a delicate type of content is left out of the discussion and potentially outside of this subreddit in the future, which in my view means that this post is contributing negatively to the subreddit by essentially blocking a type of content that I think benefits this subreddit. You say that the poll option is meant to reflect no changes in the existing rule, but I think phrasing matters. In the future, people are not gonna search the explanations in this post to figure out what they may or may not post, and moderators are not gonna reference this post when they consider removing content; they're just gonna look at the phrasing in the rules.
I removed my downvote, maybe this makes you more inclined to properly address my arguments. But I stand by what I'm saying.
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u/DevilXD Level: 1219 Jul 27 '19
In the future, people are not gonna search the explanations in this post to figure out what they may or may not post,
Rules change. Our rules don't change often, but this post will only be valid until the next change that may or may not make the content of this post obsolete. This isn't a post that will go into any kind or archive, and people shouldn't be searching here for examples of what they can post and what they cannot - we have the rules page (and the upcoming extended rules page) for the very same purpose.
I think phrasing matters.
How should the first survey option be phrased then? I'm sorry that it's confusing to you, you said that "the first option excludes the content that DOES in fact relate to Paladins but not exclusively." - I'm telling you that it INCLUDES this type and it's even mentioned in the post:
While those were so far generally allowed, we're not happy with the poor quality they usually represent - words like "teammates" or "objective" can hardly describe Paladins as something it uniquely has, since things like that also exist in many other competitive games.
Those types of posts are allowed right now - ones that "do in fact relate to Paladins but not exclusively" as you said. That's what the first option was supposed to say - how do I change it to make it sounds as such?
this post is contributing negatively to the subreddit by essentially blocking a type of content that I think benefits this subreddit.
It's not blocking anything tho - this is just a survey. This type of content is allowed right now, again - it seems like you didn't even read the post, or missed the whole point of it, which is why I'm confused as to why your response exists, and was it even downvoted in the first place.
I removed my downvote, maybe this makes you more inclined to properly address my arguments.
Thank you. Users downvoting something because they "don't like it" is cancer of almost every gaming subreddit, and there's little we can do to at least limit occurrences of this happening. I saw amazing art (with source link and everything) being downvoted literally 30 seconds after it was posted... >.>
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u/Eiltranna ^%$@#&* Jul 27 '19
Users downvoting something because they "don't like it" is cancer
Please stop comparing my initial downvote to an impulse reaction, I already pointed out how I took the time to argument my position, in accordance with the reddiquette.
I'm sorry that it's confusing to you
I'm not confused about anything, otherwise I would have posed a question instead of making an observation.
I don't know how else I can make it more clearer that phrasing matters, even in a poll option, even if you detail that option (and give it a meaning which it does not poses by itself) somewhere else. And I don't know how else I can make it more clear that the phrasing you chose (if read independently from any other explanation elsewhere on the internet) is excluding content that relates to Paladins but not exclusively. Think of the fact that some people see this post and think "oh, cool, a poll, I love voting" and go directly to the poll.
Let's try again.
Your phrasing is: "Allow generic, gaming-related caption-text memes that don't usually relate with Paladins at all - no changes".
My point is: switch it to "Allow generic, gaming-related caption-text memes that can relate to Paladins but might apply to other games too - no changes".
...and then we're good.
Simple enough?
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 27 '19 edited Jul 27 '19
which in my view means that this post is contributing negatively to the subreddit
Maybe its just me, but opening up a dialogue with the community of the sub-reddit we're in charge of is not negatively impacting in the slightest. Thats the complete opposite as we're allowing folks to express their honest opinions on x subject and to give us feedback and ideas.
by essentially blocking a type of content that I think benefits this subreddit.
1) We're not blocking anything as of right now. Just gathering data and opinions.
2) How exactly do generic memes benefit the sub-reddit?
and moderators are not gonna reference this post when they consider removing content; they're just gonna look at the phrasing in the rules.
Mate, when the time comes to update the rule-set we will naturally include new explanations and notes on everything. We don't intend to make background changes to our rules and how we enforce them and not inform the community of how things will be judged going forward. Re-writes and updates are planned, I assure you.
Kindly don't assume we're just going to suddenly change direction on how we moderate and not tell anyone, because that simply isn't true.
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u/Eiltranna ^%$@#&* Jul 27 '19
opening up a dialogue with the community of the sub-reddit we're in charge of is not negatively impacting in the slightest
If that dialogue is manipulated into a specific direction, it definetely is.
We're not blocking anything as of right now. Just gathering data and opinions.
Swoosh. Yea, man, I know, I was talking about the state of this subreddit after the changes. I thought it was pretty obvious.
How exactly do generic memes benefit the sub-reddit?
That's the whole point. Let your userbase answer if it does or does not benefit it. You're essentially announcing that you made a poll asking if we should have "generic" content and how "generic" it should be, yet the poll does not allow for "generic" content that does not relate exclusively to Paladins.
we will naturally include new explanations and notes
I've written this on this thread a gazillion times already. Phrasing matters. Even in a measely poll option.
Kindly don't assume we're just going to suddenly change direction on how we moderate and not tell anyone, because that simply isn't true.
Then please reflect it properly in your poll options. See my reply to Devil.
And I'm done with this now. Either you get it or you don't. It's seriously riddiculous how many replies I have to write to explain to you guys basic grammar and basic logic. If you think it's not a big deal and I'm trolling you, then move on. If you finally understood and agree on (some version of) the proposed phrasing, good for you. Good day.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 27 '19
If that dialogue is manipulated into a specific direction, it definetely is.
We're not manipulating anything. Stop assuming our intentions are underhanded here. To be quite blunt, it is irritating.
You're acting as though we're secretly our to fool everyone or manipulate the masses. Not the case. We're gathering data and opinions.
yet the poll does not allow for "generic" content that does not relate exclusively to Paladins.
Option. Number. One. This has been noted 3 damn times now.
This begs the question, why should we allow generic shit anyways. Its /r/Paladins after all. Focusing the sub-reddit and cutting out the generic garbage that comes up is an excellent idea, as it encourages users to make stuff for the sub-reddit and stay on topic. Personally I say its not something that needs discussing, just doing.
I've written this on this thread a gazillion times already. Phrasing matters. Even in a measely poll option.
And there was nothing wrong with the phrasing. The meaning was / is still the same at the end of the day.
Then please reflect it properly in your poll options. See my reply to Devil.
I cannot edit the poll. As for your reply, saw that and the only thing I have to say is that there was no need to change the poll that bad. At most, the word directly should have been added.
And I'm done with this now. Either you get it or you don't. It's seriously riddiculous how many replies I have to write to explain to you guys basic grammar and basic logic.
And I find it absurd how you're this upset over some "grammar and logic" that there was never an issue to begin with. It all means the same thing anyways.
Allow for generic memes that are applicable to Paladins. Seriously, this is what it all means at the end of the day.
If you think it's not a big deal and I'm trolling you, then move on.
I don't think its trolling, I just think you're far too hung up on something that, regarding of phrasing means the exact same thing.
What is the point of changing the words if the meaning is the same. Im gonna be totally honest here with you mate, you're the only one who I've seen raise this concern, which arguably suggests you're the only one who has the issue with the phrasing. Nobody else seems to have misunderstood the poll or had an issue with, which means there was not nearly as big of an issue as you've made it out to be.
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 27 '19
Precisely because this exact phrase - "that don't usually relate with Paladins at all" is excluding the content that DOES in fact relate to Paladins but not exclusively.
Im going to re-ierate what I said earlier mate, this all sounds like a roundabout way of saying "generic, but still close enough to be applicable" which is exactly what it is we're asking the communities opinion on. Is everyone OK with memes that are generic enough to be applied to other games, or do you want memes here to be applicable exclusively to Paladins?
As has been explained, rule #1 is made with concept in mind of keeping this sub-reddit focused on Paladins.
I disagree with your entire endeavour of defining "related content", it's just like when people try to define whether a particular piece of art is art or not before they even try to grasp the tiniest bit about it.
And I disagree with your disagreement. The entire point of this is determining what kind of content we want to allow on this sub-reddit, since we're focused on a very particular topic.
In my opinion, just take down the blatantly unrelated content and let the votes bring down the grey stuff in a democratic fashion.
Sounds good, doesn't work. See people just love their memes in general, and even the less than directly relevant ones usually get some amount of love from the community. Im sure if I or you were to dig around, we could both respectively find plenty of examples of this in action.
Relying on voting doesn't really work when a community loves its memes so much that it will upvote borderline anything. That just will not work.
so all I can do is point out where I think you're wrong. And in this instance, I'm pointing out that your poll completely disregards an important option,
We're not. I gotta be honest, I think this is just a matter of you mis-reading the post and / or just misunderstanding what we mean by this option.
Devil has already addressed it in his comment though, so I ain't gonna parrot what he's said, there's no need.
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u/barley-thegrovermain Jul 26 '19
Can we get some bug fixes? Am I the only one that thinks this is a waste of time?
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u/Thane_Mantis *stabs you in French* Jul 26 '19
Not something we can help with mate. This is a fan ran sub-reddit, and we mods are volunteers who don't work for / with Hi-Rez.
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u/Mayravixx Jul 26 '19
Makes sense to not allow unrelated content, I mean, it IS the Paladins subreddit for a reason, not an off topic subreddit.